East Coast Fuel Crisis!

[JamesR]

6 hours ago, John348 said:

 I am confused as to why China is being brought up because these attacks have been coming from Russia. 

 

Good point, John. Thanks for the education. My only point is that the less self-sufficient we become, the more I worry about us being at the mercy of other entities. But I don't that this incident had anything to do with that. Best wishes to the people of the South facing the shortages.

 

Maybe vintage Chevettes and Pintos will increase in value as people start to relive the "good ol' days" of the '70's oil shortages. It sounds weird, but I'd actually like to own a Chevette. My sister bought one brand new in 1980 (This one isn't hers...hers was a two door, but I think the four doors are cooler. 🙃)

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by JamesR (see edit history)

[John348]

2 minutes ago, JamesR said:

 

Good point, John. Thanks for the education. My only point is that the less self-sufficient we become, the more I worry about us being at the mercy of other entities. But I don't that this incident had anything to do with that. Best wishes to the people of the South facing the shortages.

 

Maybe vintage Chevettes and Pintos will increase in value as people start to relive the "good ol' days" of the '70's oil shortages. It sounds weird, but I'd actually like to own a Chevette. My sister bought one brand new in 1980 (This one isn't hers...hers was a two door, but I think the four doors are cooler. 🙃)

 

 

 

Occasionally you will see a Pinto, or a Vega, Chevette's that's a different story. I remember  one at Hershey a few years ago. I would not minding owning one as well, now if I could in and out of it that would be even better! 

[ply33]

36 minutes ago, hook said:

. . . I can't understand why a system that controls so much doesn't have a double or Siamese system just in case.    

I know nothing specific to this incident other than what I read in the news. And the last time I had any technical dealings with SCADA or SS-7 was in the 1990s and one hopes things have changed a bit since then.

 

That said, the networks that control industrial processes (SCADA) or route phone calls (SS-7) were developed back in the utopian days of networking when it was assumed that everything on the network could be trusted. They were assumed to be closed networks where all the elements were from trusted vendors, etc. and no significant security or authentication was designed in.

 

Retrofitting security into networks that never had it in the first place is expensive and very disruptive. Even just getting all the industry actors to agree on revisions to the protocols that improve security without breaking older equipment (whose manufacturer may no longer be in business) can take a lot of time.

 

So on the one hand updating for security is disruptive and costly, assuming there is even an industry agreed upon improvement available, and risk adverse managers are unlikely to approve security changes that will hit the bottom line with no anticipated improvement in sales or long term business efficiency (at least until something bites them hard).

 

On the other hand, there is strong incentives for ease of management and adding useful system features that induces companies to interconnect these specialized insecure legacy networks to the Internet thus exposing them to hacking.

 

End result is that we suffer from computerized spam calls that can’t be easily stopped (lack of authentication in SS-7 coupled with Voice Over IP (VOIP) Internet gateways). And “bad actors” can disrupt industrial processes (SCADA insecurities), even to the point of destroying equipment.

 

But from a couple of the news items I have read, it seems the target was the Windows computers and servers in the company’s business network that manages things rather than the SCADA network they undoubtedly use for actually running pumps and valves, etc. on the pipeline. Yet another “attack surface” for someone to work with.

 

If you are worried about national security then you can be very worried about this: Normal business pressures mean that companies will select options that improve cost/efficiency over those that improve resilience/security. And huge pyramids of interconnected systems are built up with inherent weaknesses in the whole foundation waiting for a trigger that collapses the whole. And collapse might even be due non-human triggers (e.g. weather cold enough that lack of dewatering in Texas natural gas pipelines meant freezing pumps leading to lack of gas for heating and power). 

 

Some other posts wondered about state actors like Russia or China. Yes, nations including Russia, China, North Korea and even ourselves (SCADA controlled uranium enrichment centrifuges in Iran come to mind) engage in these activities. But it is also a profitable field for just plain criminals. So it isn’t a matter of Russia OR China OR North Korea OR criminals OR whoever. It could be any of them on any single attack. I don’t worry as much about who is doing the attack but that it is it relatively easy to pull off attacks on the systems we make. Given the nature of business pressures I don’t see that changing and that is the scary part.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, hook said:

I was hit with this ransomware several years ago. I was small potatoes and they wanted a thousand dollars to give me the code to unlock my stuff. I immediately stopped everything and had my IT person take over my computer and safely remove all the info I had separately to storage systems. I lost very little and of that I had back up elsewhere. I was extremely lucky. I can't understand why a system that controls so much doesn't have a double or Siamese system just in case.    

 

 

My business was shut down when an employee opened a window on an internet search using a cash register. We lost everything. It was cheaper to buy four new hard drives and install out back ups that were only two weeks old.  

[Guest]

[TerryB]

Ouch!  That’s robbery without a gun.  No way should that be allowed.

[60FlatTop]

Here's one that wasn't newsworthy:

 

 

Number 5 and 6 are almost a tie. Government energy figures.

 

Taken out of context by me, why not. In context doesn't make news.

[John348]

2 hours ago, GregLaR said:

 

Makes me feel good about buying that $70K diesel truck now! I wonder how much is the ethanol free gas cost?

 

I was in Charlottesville  Virginia this past weekend visiting my son and his family.. I heard about this on Saturday morning, the news I read and heard did not cause any panic, they did their job and informed the public about the incident. I want the press to inform me, that is their job.  The panic was created by the people, many who only seem to hear or read 'key words,' and jump to a conclusion, or even worse they hear the news from a friend who heard it somewhere. Every time I fill up there are people on getting $10 or $15 of gas, why don't they just fill it up. I realize it could be a cost factor but they are riding around in new/newer cars?

 

I will admit I did fill up my truck that morning, knowing I had a 430 mile return trip on Tuesday and I had a feeling prices were going to take a jump. 

 

Every time there is a snow storm in NYC every gallon of milk is bought, eggs and bread are gone from the shelves, why? nobody can answer. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

Every time there is a snow storm in NYC every gallon of milk is bought, eggs and bread are gone from the shelves, why? nobody can answer. 

I think that's universal anywhere on the East Coast!

 

Daresay NYC doesn't have the electric outages during a snow or ice storm that we have in rural Vajenya. If you just about know your power's going out, why stock up on perishables? Unless of course you have a gas range, then you can at least make French toast...

 

A few stations here are out of fuel, mostly small one or two pump stations. Hopefully things will be back to normal in a few days. Then, since the ransom was paid, we'll see how long it takes for another bad actor to be emboldened.

[Guest]

I blame all "shortages" on the 4th estate.

 

[3macboys]

This all reminds me of an April 1st radio broadcast about 20 yrs ago from a local station urging people to fill up their bathtubs and sinks with hot water because the city was going to turn the hot water supply off for 24 hrs.   Now lets hope none of these hoarders are trying to store gas the same way!

[nickelroadster]

Everyone panics and goes to buy gas.  This is what really causes the shortage.  So many people think that we have a constitutional right to gas (and it should be cheap!).  There are rumors that the pipeline co. paid up. This will really cause this thing to snowball and it will become much more common.  Isn't the shutdown kind of like canceling a pipeline?  I am not going to get in line for gas.  If I have to do that, I just won't drive.

[46 woodie]

I just heard on the news that an undisclosed  ransom was paid to the hackers. A very dangerous thing to do. If we paid once we will pay again.

[rocketraider]

24 minutes ago, 3macboys said:

This all reminds me of an April 1st radio broadcast about 20 yrs ago from a local station urging people to fill up their bathtubs and sinks with hot water because the city was going to turn the hot water supply off for 24 hrs.   Now lets hope none of these hoarders are trying to store gas the same way!

It's discouraging how people have no understanding of how their home's mechanical systems work.

 

There are stories floating about people filling plastic totes with gasoline 😯😳😬🤯. One knothead in FL has already burned down his Hummer by stuffing it with gas cans. Don't know how he ignited it, but a cabin full of vapors surely didn't help.

[John348]

18 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

I just heard on the news that an undisclosed  ransom was paid to the hackers. A very dangerous thing to do. If we paid once we will pay again.

 

Corporations do this every day, and that is one of the dangers of crypto currency, Bitcoin and alike, enables these criminals to operate and get paid. We only know about this one because it had an effect on the general public. If the company did not pay them what are the alternatives? What are they loosing every hour that they are down? It could take weeks to correct the problem. The answer is to have better security on their IT. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[3macboys]

7 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Corporations do this every day, and that is one of the dangers of crypto currency, Bitcoin and alike, enables these criminals to operate and get paid. We only know about this one because it had an effect on the general public. If the company did not pay them what are the alternatives? What are they loosing every hour that they are down? It could take weeks to correct the problem. The answer is to have better security on their IT. 

Spot on John - now if we could just get those Reddit traders to turn the tables on the criminals and completely devalue the cryptos.  On a more serious note often the IT people want to have boosted the security but the powers that be won't fund it and they also usually don't have insurance to cover the attacks because the underwriters would demand the improved security.  My city (pop 45 000) was attacked almost 2 years ago, they didn't pay but it took months to fully recover and still cost the city somewhere around a million dollars.  

 

Don

[padgett]

I heard 5 mil but anything sets a bad precedent.

If Windows computers, any bets they were XP or maybe even 3.11. Take a look at SCADA vulnerabilities from the 90s or more recently or search "Virus-L SCADA".

[Frank DuVal]

23 hours ago, mike6024 said:

I was told fuel with ethanol cannot be transported by pipeline due to it absorbing water. It will absorb water from humidity in the air, and spoil the fuel. Somehow fuel being transported by pipeline gets exposure to air. So fuel with ethanol gets transported by tank trucks and pipelines used for regular hydrocarbon fuel.

This does not pass the smell test. Gasoline formulas are government (EPA) mandated. Change from attainment area to non-attainment area, summer to winter, etc. The only thing added is the minute quantities of additives that make it Exxon, Shell, generic Top Tier, etc. And that is when it is put into the delivery tankers.

 

And, how would air with moisture get into the pipe line? Pipes run full to get maximum throughput. More chance of air being in the top of the tanker truck! Especially after the FIRST STOP!😲

[mike6024]

14 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

This does not pass the smell test. Gasoline formulas are government (EPA) mandated. Change from attainment area to non-attainment area, summer to winter, etc. The only thing added is the minute quantities of additives that make it Exxon, Shell, generic Top Tier, etc. And that is when it is put into the delivery tankers.

 

And, how would air with moisture get into the pipe line? Pipes run full to get maximum throughput. More chance of air being in the top of the tanker truck! Especially after the FIRST STOP!😲

 

How come every time I post anything you have to quote it and declare how stupid it is? I will have to put you on ignore too. And you should reciprocate.

[Frank DuVal]

So according to youse guys, the media should have never told us Colonial Pipeline had a Ransomeware attack. You just want to go through life without knowing what is happening in the world? And the media should not report on lines at gas pumps? And the media should not have told people traveling to the southeast that a pipeline serving 45% of the area's fuel was not operating? And you were stuck in there for an extra day on your trip because you were not informed, you are fine with that?

 

You people will never be happy. Damed if they do, damed if they don't.

[Frank DuVal]

1 minute ago, mike6024 said:

How come every time I post anything you have to quote it and declare how stupid it is? I will have to put you on ignore too. And you should reciprocate.

Sounds like a typical discussion at work! 😄

[Frank DuVal]

OK, so I did some research, shocking, I know!😲 Amazing what one can find on the internet these days.

 

The Ethanol not going by pipeline well is true.  🤔  However, that is Ethanol, NOT gasoline blended with Ethanol. So, from the farmer to the distillery, the grain goes by truck/rail, etc. From the distillery to the petroleum refinery, the Ethanol goes by truck/rail, etc. Once the Ethanol is blended with gasoline, then there is an existing pipeline system to move that product to the distribution point, along with truck/rail, etc. Whatever means works best for the destination at that time.

 

See how easy that was to find the truth?👍

 

 

[f.f.jones]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:55 PM, mike6024 said:

I was told fuel with ethanol cannot be transported by pipeline due to it absorbing water. It will absorb water from humidity in the air, and spoil the fuel. Somehow fuel being transported by pipeline gets exposure to air. So fuel with ethanol gets transported by tank trucks and pipelines used for regular hydrocarbon fuel.

 

This was discussed by Bill Wattenburg on his radio show, in which he claimed ethanol is not an environmental benefit due to the transportation costs, and the fuel wasted by the trucks needed to transport it.

 

Ethanol is an interesting molecule. It is polar or hydrophilic (water-loving) due to the presence of the terminal hydroxyl group, so it dissolves in water. ... However, in the case of ethanol, the carbon chain is short enough so that the more polar -OH group dominates, giving the ethanol its polar character.

Bill Wattenberg died in August of 2018. Is his ghost still trying to confuse us with scientific mumbo-jumbo and techno-babble?

[George Cole]

The Colonial Pipeline runs from TX to NJ.

 

 

[George Cole]

Haven't seen any of this in central FL, where our gas prices are still hovering around the $2.80 p. gal for regular ethanol, and $2.99 for e-free.

 

 

[George Cole]

[George Cole]

[TAKerry]

12 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I just heard on the news that an undisclosed  ransom was paid to the hackers. A very dangerous thing to do. If we paid once we will pay again.

A couple of years ago the city of Baltimore was hacked by ransom ware. Things were in chaos for at least a month maybe more. I think they ended up resolving the issue without having to pay up but there were many millions of dollars in damages, delays, etc. along the way. After all was said and done it was announced that the 'ransom' was less than $100k. In the long run it would have been much better to pay and get on with business, but where does one draw the line?

[prewar]

7 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

A couple of years ago the city of Baltimore was hacked by ransom ware. Things were in chaos for at least a month maybe more. 

In all fairness, the City of Baltimore was in chaos long before the hackers came along.😉

[TAKerry]

And still is............

[Robert Street]

Before I retired our county was hit with a ransom attack to the main server. Naturally my first response was to the IT’s what the F has happened and turn our systems back on. 2nd response was what the F is a bitcoin!

luckily our staff didn’t really have good faith in the IT’s and we actually took our backup tapes that they independently created each evening off  site.  We were able to reload our systems after unplugging from main server and had to manually re-enter two days of work.  
Robert

[Ronnie]

Time to get back to the topic of the pipeline and the fuel crisis. Stop with the rumors and conspiracy theories.

 

 

[mike6024]

 

Someone said fuel with ethanol does not store well, so can we assume this guy is getting the pricier e-free fuel?

 

[rocketraider]

He's probably going for whatever he could get!😄

 

He'll also have the nerve to be surprised when the fuel goes bad before he uses it all and his vehicles run like doodoo.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Stop with the rumors and conspiracy theories.

 

And the humble opinions that made me laugh.

[John348]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Time to get back to the topic of the pipeline and the fuel crisis. Stop with the rumors and conspiracy theories.

 

 

 

What rumors and conspiracy theory's?

[Laughing Coyote]

I think we have a bigger problem than a gas shortage. It's more a common sense shortage. 

 

 

 

[JACK M]

17 minutes ago, Laughing Coyote said:

I think we have a bigger problem than a gas shortage. It's more a common sense shortage. 

 

 

 

 

Mr. Natural, one of my favorites.

Keep on Truckin......

 

[wws944]

14 hours ago, f.f.jones said:

Bill Wattenberg died in August of 2018. Is his ghost still trying to confuse us with scientific mumbo-jumbo and techno-babble?

 

Sad to hear.  I really liked Dr Wattenberg.  For some years, he was the only listenable talk show host on KGO.  (Now it is totally unlistenable.)  Big advocate of nuke power.

 

The one who was _really_ entertaining, and definitely not on KGO, was the late Art Bell and his overnight Coast to Coast AM show.  Talk about strange guests...

[Stude17]

5 hours ago, mike6024 said:

 

Someone said fuel with ethanol does not store well, so can we assume this guy is getting the pricier e-free fuel?

 

From what I can see the type of fuel he is getting will be the least of his problems (and probably others).  A 1,000 litre pod filled with fuel on a very light trailer secured with one tie down and sloping to the back is a disaster waiting to happen in my opinion. I have no doubt he will fill it to the very top.