Wheel cylinder sleeve leak. 27 chry.

[Flivverking]

Last July August I had sent off all the hydraulic cylinders for a 27 Chrysler 70..

All brakes bits like hoses and relined shoes with cylinders installed during mild weather through the year change..

First tackle was instant leaks at some point all the banjo fittings that require 3 different crush washers each and one original special washer on each cylinder is reused do to now premade replacement available.

  We never got to bleeding at all so we  drained the system and let the project go with colder weather kicking in.

Just recently we reworked all the banjo fittings and felt pretty good about it and a few days ago went to work on the breeding the system.

 We barely got at a rear wheel bleeder when we notice a huge puddle of fluid under the left front wheel.

 We promptly took off the newly restored wood wheel and drum before too much damage was done and find a wet and heavily dripping wheel cylinder.

Now this system mostly is a gravity bleed hydraulic system with a high mounted reservoir mounted on the fire wall..and once the tank valve is opened the fluid with flow ,and find the least resistance and where air can escape.

 To not add more this boring tail of woe ,after some fiddling about with new seals and no improvement and callling the rebuilder..it was removed sent back today.

Here is what I found to be the cause and I think you will too.

Machine markings/groves running lenght-wise though the cylinder..

One line I can catch a pinky finger nail on.

Though not a show car ,or even close it gets a bothersome to watch all your clean up and fresh chassis paint melt before ones eyes..or having to repaint wheel that just got pinstriped..GURRR!

If you can blow up the pics ?...it's almost scary the faulty machine work wasn't caught...but these things happen.....I guess?

 

[Flivverking]

[Flivverking]

[37_Roadmaster_C]

If that job came out of a professional machine shop I would want a refund AND ask for repair money for the external damage. That finish on a brake sleeve is criminal. An apprentice machinist could do better work!  OK, rant off.......

[Flivverking]

We can get into the rebuilding company after we see how it resolves ..

 

So, don’t touch that dial and stay tuned for the next episode of “ How the Wheels Turn” brought to you by,

“Slicky Auto Wax” .

The only auto wax that not only leaves a shine guaranteed for 6 months ,but is the only auto wax you can eat.

[stakeside]

20 hours ago, Flivverking said:

Which fluid are you using, type 4 or 5?  My rebuilt master cylinder does weep a slight amount. It was also sleeved. I wonder if these fluids may tend to weep.

[FLYER15015]

Why in the world would you use brass ?

Ron Carp in California re-sleeves brake and master cylinders with seamless stainless steel tubing.

Had my '40 Buick LTD done 6 years ago and not a drop from any of them.

Cost was VERY reasonable.

 

Mike in Colorado

[keiser31]

If you have not found a remedy to the banjo bolt fitting leaks, I suggest the washers with the neoprene center....they are GREAT!

[ArticiferTom]

Really is not much reason not to use brass . A little easier to machine , maybe safer to press in housings . Compatible as most banjo are brass and lines are copper . Only down fall is galvanic action because of aluminum pistons in .

   His problem is just a missed machine process or piss poor one . With today's tools and cost,a  S/S reline is now same price range .

[Flivverking]

I use DOT 3 fluid.  

Dot3 absorbs less water then DOT 4 over time.

.Dot 4 has a higher boiling temp then Dot3. They can be mixed.

. I do not see the heat advantage of DOT 4 over Dot3 on a 94 year old car.

DOT 5.1( 5 Point one) is high performance and even a higher boiling point then DOT4 and is glycol based too and can be mixed with DOT 3 and 4.

DOT 5 is silicone based .does not absorb water and can not be used with 3,4,5.1 .

It won't eat paint but can be and has been proven to be hard to bleed do being prone to air bubbles easily.

Some report seepage with silicone fluid ,but no seepage with 3 or 4 or 5.1. in the same system.

Yet some have no troubles with anything they do..I hate them in my dreams😎.

 

It is not unheard of that some rebuilders request not to use DOT 5 or the warrenty of work is void.

 

 

Not having new brake lines I chose common none silicone brake fluid of the mixable 3,4.5.1 type. and use new Dot3 to flush clear  the lines.

 

I do not know the rubber preserving quality of silicone over glycol based fluids.

 

I don't see any great servicable advantage of stainless over brass sleeves in brake cylinder repair. Both are better then iron as far as corrosion..

Stainless is one mans 'one up' of the brass sleeve market as far as I can tell in a practical sense...but I'm a dull thinker.

 

For Mike in Coloradie.

Great your stainless sleeve guy is in Californie,closer for you.

 

I'm in Connecticuts.so it is not unreasonable to send my junk closer to me to a firm who is well known and does have a fair reputation,though not in stainless work,plus it keeps my 1927 brake junk out of extensive mail transport right in the middle of the worst mail in history. Ever try to get replacement 1927 Chrysler hydraulic brake parts?

 

Gots to go,my bourbon us getting warm.

[kings32]

A few years ago had cyl done on a 26 chysler  Had the same problem , measured the bores they where out of round. By a big name company in the northeast. They would not stand behind there work. Kings32

[leomara]

Please don't tell us about bad workmanship and not tell us who did the crappy job, they deserve to be outed.....

[Flivverking]

Leomara,

If you read back a bit ,I said we can discuss the company after we see how things eventually  resolve..good ,bad etc.

[Flivverking]

"Here is the long over due and over long ,sloppy written 2nd episode of the never ending saga

 "How the Wheels Turn",

Brought to by "Slicky Auto Wax,the only auto wax guaranteed to leave a shine for 6 months! and the only auto wax you can eat!

 

Our scene opens  a few months later  after sending back our leaking wheel cylinder from the 1927 Chrysler 70 .(The cylinder was leaking just from the firewall mounted remote brake reservoir's  pressure of the fluid .) 

The cylinder was accepted for return.

After the rebuilder received the cylinder I was phone called a week later to explain what the problem was( Explained  for the second time by phone,and there was a note with the return).

  The company rep did not understand  that I thought the problem  would be" self evident" to them durning examination of the cylinder..

 

Over the phone I had recap the bit about the groving..and it shouldn't be there etc. At one point in humorous way I had to tell this guy."

Put your glasses on youg man"" because he wasn't seeing it.

 

O.k. 3 and 1/2 weeks go by and the returned cylinder shows up in the mail..no paper work or notice from the company of fix and pending home return.

 

I reinstalled the cylinder a few days later,opened the reservoir tank valve and let the fuild find it's way out,if it can,and it will with the slightest escape route, right away or in a day or 2...

The cylinder didn't leak!..Great!

 

After chasing bleeder screw weeps up to a couple of weeks ago, we just got to seriously attempt to bleed the brake lines yesterday June 23rd.

2 rounds of gravity bleeding one wheel at a time..we took a break before trying the pedal.

 

An hour later I reach in and hand push the pedal and I feel resistance after 2 inches of travel..Great! So I hop in and foot press the pedal to see how far it go an how spoongy !

The pedal was pleasently firmish at half way down and I heard the squak of the return brake band springs ,so I knew things were moving ,then woosh!!! the pedal hit the floor and I hear a splattery, gooshy, oozing wet noise..Like explosive diarrhea from food posioning😱😨😌😞

 

ShxT!

My gut feels icky instantly as I hoop out to see where and what blew out.

 

Left rear wheel has a nice puddle under it and a steady heavy drip off the brake band.

A made dash is made (again) ,like I did a few months earlier, to get a refinish wood wheel off before too much damage is done by fluid contact dripping.

 

This includes getting tools, taking out the axle hub cotter pin ,getting the torqued on axle nut off, screwing on a wheel hub puller etc.to pull the wheel all trying to beat the paint from lifting ,in less then a minute.

 

So wheel is off ,the inner backing  plate is wet ,loosing it's paint ,the new woven brake band lining is soaked and fluid wicking several inches beyond each side of the direct line of fluid contact...and of course the one side of the wheel cylinder boot is soaked and dripping. I pull back the boot ,it's all wet and a table spoon of fluid runs out.

 

 The cylinder shows the same marks or groves the length of the cylinder bore as the first bum cylinder,but not quite as bad..

 

What think is they are are using seamed tubing material that also has other imperfections inside that boring and the finishing process do Not remove for a clean smooth cylindrical bore end to end.

 

"Apple Hydraulics" has slipped down about 5 notches out of 5

and is not on my list of reliable high quality rebuilding ,having a 50% failure  rate with my cylinders.

 

They appear to me that presently are

1) using the wrong type and poor quality sleeving material

2) have an incompetent machinist

3) have no quality control

 

I have peaked the all the cylinders when mounted on the car by pealing back the dust boots when I re-installed the first bad cylinder and wheels were off.

With good light and mirror they all showed these length of bore groves,just not as pronounced as the first cylinder and this next bad one.

 

I'm fully prepared that I will be sending back all the cylinders and master cylinder as they leak and blow out one by one as I get closer to  good brake system pressure..

 

Now Monday morning I get to make the call to Apple Hydraulics and go through the return again..and hear the annoying bull response that I probably have the brake shoes on wrong.did I swap the cylinder to another side to narrow downhe  the issue ,how do I know the problem is the cylinder and I didn't cause it crap!

 

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That ends this episode of

"As the Wheels Turn"

 

We will now have a musical interlude of "Organ Music to Change Diapers By"

Played by "The Wizard of his Organ"

11 fingered,

Sir. Oskar Von Bumperbar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Flivverking (see edit history)

[Flivverking]

[JFranklin]

You might request your money back and send the parts to White Post.

[Tom_S]

I had White Post sleeve my master cylinder on 36 Buick years ago.  Beautiful polished job and never leaked to this day. 

Rode by there yesterday while attending an antique engine/tractor show in Berryville 

[Frank DuVal]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:23 PM, Flivverking said:

It is not unheard of that some rebuilders request not to use DOT 5 or the warrenty of work is void.

 Then I would not use them! 

 

I have 40 years of using DOT 5 in brake systems with NONE of the issues I hear about. Most all failure to bleed issues are installer problems. I've seen those people in action. Rapidly pressing the brake pedal to build pressure before the helper opens the bleed valve. Sounds like a machine gun going off. No wonder people report problems!😲

 

Gravity bleeding is a piece of cake with DOT 5.

 

Note I do not drive up Pikes Peak or circle track race. 

 

On 5/8/2021 at 7:23 PM, Flivverking said:

I do not know the rubber preserving quality of silicone over glycol based fluids.

Well, from my experience, the DOT 5 exceeds the "preservation" quality of the other fluids. I could give you an expected lifetime of rubber in silicone fluid, but, I have yet to see any failures, so, 40 years plus?😉

 

What an ordeal you are going through. 

 

 

[Flivverking]

 Comming up ,

The next installment of,

"How The Wheels Turn"

 

Our story today starts with a decaration that I will admit, when it comes to resleeving these hydraulic cylinders or master cylinders,to prove how much an idiot I really am,in my thoughts of how they do the job is they clean and bore out the casting to receive a SOLID bushing that is pressed in.Then they bore  and hone the sleeve to the correct size.

Boy am I dumb!

After some study from the first cylinder problem,I'm 99.9% sure they are boring the cylinder just enough to fit a sleeve made of a specific thicknees from flat sheet rolled to shape or a premade tubing stock that is larger and they cut away some to reform a small diameter as required,then press it in,dress the ends ,then only hone it..The sleeve it self is not bored straight true!

In my previous pictures and later ones you easily see the seam and 1 or more paralle lines that  I bet are part of the reforming the sleeve to a  smaller diameter.

It's it or miss whether the bore comes out round and true (enough) with these marks or that the seam joint is good enough where the 2 edges meet to hold a seal.

 

Monday when I called, I didn't get the regular guy with a bit of accent,but a younger happy fellow who when I said the cylinder is defective,he eagerly said 

"oh! just send it back ,with a note of the problem", like we get them sent back all the time attitilude and why drag out a phone discussion.

 

 

Our program today is brought to you by ,

"The Miracle Car Company"

Remember folks!

If it's a good car,it's a Miracle!

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Flivverking (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

A good machine shop would do the job as you thought it should have been done. the shops I have used make bushings/sleeves to order. It might cost more but I never have to go back. Send them somewhere else. 

[Flivverking]

An update..

I have not yet received this wheel cylinder that was sent back on 7/26/2021 to be re-rebuilt.

 20 days ago or so,I was left a phone anserwing machine message by someone at Apple H. that the wheel cylinder was sent back to the wrong address and was supposedly being returned to them(👹 Apple Hydraulics👹)

 I have not been able to have the phone anserwed by Apple Hydraulics for the 2 days I have been trying(we'll just call it bad timing).

 This afternoon I sent them an email as to WHAT'S UP? ,but in 150 words and with out my standard natural cursing that I think is now required.😣

 

 

 

[trini]

On my 1928 Dodge senior I had my 4 wheel cylinders done with stainless steel here in  Stoney Creak, Canada.  He installed the rubbers . No problem. I looked at the pictures of the cylinders you posted. Th material looks like a piece of natural gas pipe with a long seam. That machinist has to be the most dumb object on 2 legs.Common sense will tell you to use non seamless stainless steel.  To say that dot 5 will lose waranty  has to be the joke of the year .

Try using sheets of soft copper and cut your gasket yourself. Old copper gasket can be reused. Heat it red in fire and let it cool by itself.

Cheers

Harry

[Flivverking]

Well Apple email back ,it appears they had not gotten the cylinder  back ..They called the people(husband) who wrongly got the cylinder and this husband left it to his wife to take care of it ,as in,write "return to sender" and shove it on the porch, I assume, to get picked up.

Apple says this husband is gonna ask the wife about and call them,Apple, back.

Now Apple did give me a street address(like a teaser ) where the cylinder was sent to  but not a name..

 I went with delusional thoughts someone would be home .

Not the greatest getto I was ever in and not a place people would ever answer the door,and easily a place where deliveries( or returns) left outside would vanish within an hour.

 

For sure, we will not make Alex Dragone's "Iron Range /Cars and Caffeine meet" that is comming up with this old bus.

Which was the 3rd failed goal for it.

 

 

[nickelroadster]

I can't see how it is your responsibility to get it yourself.  Maybe Apple just needs to replace it whatever their cost.

[JACK M]

Best advertising may be to forward them this thread.

[Flivverking]

We finally got the mis-directed wheel cylinder.We will skip the details of that episode for now.

 

 We get the cylinder installed ,the brakes bleed enough to start checking with more serious straight pedal pressure and wouldn't you know the pedal( with firm at first ) resistance went straight to the floor..and once again after recharging the mastercylinder..

There is an all to familar puddle of brake fluid under another wheel.

 

So now the the 3rd wheel cylinder is N.G. and blows by,but silently this time..

Another "chinese fire drill" to get the another newly  painted, rear ,wood wheel off, to keep fluid from finding its way to the rim and spokes.

   After the first wheel cylinder leak ,some time back ,In the back of my mind I was telling myself," one at a time ,these cylinders will go out as the pressure builds..the weakest cylinders first and so on .

 

 Within five minutes I call  rotten  "Apple Hydraulics" and this Lazar character .

 In short after a 5 minute blasting( in a hard to keep normal tone)..I had to  give up and thought it was time to close this door....the door to where on the other side is nothing but shxt and disappointment and your empty pockets.

 

The end result is  I've been screwed over by them, "APPLE HYDRAULICS"  with their inferior work ,the loss of time ,loss of energy and loss of the money.

  

We are now planing to pull all the cylinders,master also..and start fresh . 

 

You wouldn't (or maybe would) believe the amount of negitive comments found through the years about Apple getting away with cranking out poor quailty work..

Way to many for any business ,and quite a lot from the foreign cars clubs like the  Ferrari club etc.

 

Why those reviews didn't show up when I researching over a year ago I don't know..gurrrr!

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Flivverking (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Try White Post for your next round, you'll have good brakes.