New to the AACA

[JeRita]

Hello we are new to the AACA and are looking forward to participating in shows and events. One of our cars is a coachbuilt Cadillac station wagon. What class should that be entered into at an AACA event? Thank you 

[Peter Gariepy]

1 minute ago, JeRita said:

Hello we are new to the AACA and are looking forward to participating in shows and events. One of our cars is a coachbuilt Cadillac station wagon. What class should that be entered into at an AACA event? Thank you 

 

YES!

[rocketraider]

49 minutes ago, JeRita said:

 

😻

 

Lord she's handsome... it's well known around here that I dig longroofs of all descriptions but especially something like this.

 

Do you know who did the coachwork? 

 

Odd that we've been talking about another unusual Cadillac in the "pictures of my Cadillacs" thread and this wagon shows up.

[Frank DuVal]

Longroofs Rule!👍

[John348]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:58 PM, JeRita said:

Hello we are new to the AACA and are looking forward to participating in shows and events. One of our cars is a coachbuilt Cadillac station wagon. What class should that be entered into at an AACA event? Thank you 

 I see your Caddy has NY plates, are going to bring it to Saratoga? As far what class it would be in you should contact the VP of Class Judging Chuck Crane. His email is flivverway@gmail.com

Great Looking car!

Edited May 5, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

Is it a limo or station wagon?

 

 

(I daily drive a station wagon, no SUV for me

[Steve Moskowitz]

This one is a bit tough for judging classification.  It does not appear to have been used as a professional vehicle so I tend to think you will need approval form the SCC Committee to be in Class 35.  Contact Chuck or myself and we will send you the forms.  If this is a typical factory authorized conversion and you have the documentation it should not be a problem

[Walt G]

I am not a postwar car collector - I really do like some of them but like most here there is only so much $ and space , you can't have them all ! darn it, but my preference is for 4 door cars , mostly full size and the same for station wagons of that era. It is what I grew up riding around in with my parents, besides I like to have friends along for the ride and crawling into the rear of a 2 door car or just into a sports car isn't to my taste. Bigger isn't better , just more comfortable due to the room. This station wagon is wonderful! 

[JeRita]

12 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

This one is a bit tough for judging classification.  It does not appear to have been used as a professional vehicle so I tend to think you will need approval form the SCC Committee to be in Class 35.  Contact Chuck or myself and we will send you the forms.  If this is a typical factory authorized conversion and you have the documentation it should not be a problem

Thank you Steve where can I find yours and Chuck's email to contact you? Jerry and Rita 

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jerry sent you an email....great car.

[8E45E]

I would like to see a photo of it from the rear. 

 

It appears to have never been a 'Professional car' (hearse or ambulance) wagon conversion.  I am aware of some earlier 1970's non-professional Cadillac station wagon conversions made for wealthy Texas ranchers and the occasional actor or musician.  They had a regular tailgate with opening window, unlike a hearse or an ambulance with the huge side-hinged rear door.

 

Craig

[padgett]

So what we have is an era-correct resto-mod done to a new (at the time) car. Kinda like a Duesenberg LeBaron.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

So what we have is an era-correct resto-mod done to a new (at the time) car. Kinda like a Duesenberg LeBaron.

 

 

I disagree with the above. What we have here is a new car delivered to a commercial enterprise and modified "in its era " being done before delivery, or immediately after delivery new and modified by a commercial shop or coach builder. One can argue if the shop is a builder of flower cars & hearses, or if they only do custom work......and whether or not the car is a "professional car". That said, its obviously the intention of the owner to have a car not offered by Cadillac for personal use. Thus, in my humble opinion its a "semi custom" Cadillac. Where it fits into AACA judging I shall remain mute. Myself, if I owned it, I would not want it in the "professional car class", as the intent was not to use it that way from new. I like the car. Lots of fun. 

 

Short comment.......if this were a Chevy van, ordered in plane Jane white with nothing in it except front seats, and then it was sent to be turned into a plumbers van, electrician van, or one of the custom over the road shag carpet love mobiles with a water bed like back in the early 80's.........wouldn't it just go in the "regular" truck class?

Edited May 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Hess & Eisenhardt were doing a lot of convertible conversions for GM and others around that time. Stands to reason they were still coachbuilding wagons too.

 

Mo' pictchas pleez!

[padgett]

OK not a resto-mod. but the rest is correct.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Glenn is 100% correct as some of you may not now that at least at GM there were many factory authorized conversions done and marketed through the Divisions.  I sold a bunch through my dealership from convertibles to marketing cars.  Even Hurst Olds were converted outside the plant. I am not a Cadillac expert but the possibility that a company like Hess could have built this for the market.  In any event the owner says he had documentation on the car and it might well fit into our Class 35 for Limited Production type vehicles or elsewhere.

 

Ed if I can get you to show more in AACA you will realize that documentation is the key to our judging system.   The possible problem putting a car like this in our system and apparently other judging systems, according to the owner, is that it is a challenge to determine if what the judges are looking at is "as built."  If an owner has full documentation then we can properly place the car.  AACA has a committee that looks at all these unusual cars and makes a determination as to where they should go.  In any event, I am fairly sure we will welcome this vehicle in our system somewhere.

[76 Caddy]

I might not be 100% accurate but the station wagons were built on base Fleetwoods, not on the commercial or professional chassis.  You could order it through the Cadillac dealers.  They took the GM corporate wagon shell and grafted it onto the Fleetwoods.  In the 1970s Traditional Coachworks in California made a station wagon and pickup called the "Mirage" on a Fleetwood and Coupe deVille. 

 

Tim    

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Short comment.......if this were a Chevy van, ordered in plane Jane white with nothing in it except front seats, and then it was sent to be turned into a plumbers van, electrician van, or one of the custom over the road shag carpet love mobiles with a water bed like back in the early 80's.........wouldn't it just go in the "regular" truck class?

GM, Ford and Dodge DID offer vans starting in 1977 for that purpose.  Dodge was the leader, you could say with their 'Street Van' package, which was a Tradesman van, but with all the performance goodies installed, including a 360, 4bbl, dual exhaust, etc., ala Warlock and Li'l Red Express Truck.  Ford them offered their 'Crusin' Wagon' Econoline in Silver with orange/magenta/black side stripes, and GM followed with the Gaucho van.  Other than the Econoline which had the round smoked glass bubble windows already installed from the factory, all three were sold as a "blank canvas" for owners or shops to turn them into 'shaggin wagons'.  

 

Street Vans, Crusin' Wagons and Gaucho vans can be seen here--->  

 

 

Craig

[padgett]

Was also the basis for most class C motorhomes. Could fleet order a van without a body.

 

ps Minnie Winnie was available in '73.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/08/1979-cadillac-fleetwood-brougham-delegance-is-one-pretty-wagon/

 

 

1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham D’Elegance Is One Pretty Wagon

• BY SAM MCEACHERN
• — AUG 1, 2019

 

If you take your car in for service to the dealership, you will probably receive a fairly average rental car to use while the technicians are busy working on your vehicle. Even owners of more expensive vehicles get left with a basic economy car every now and then.

Former Detroit-area Cadillac dealership Wilson-Crissman did things a little bit more elegantly, however. It commissioned R.S. Harper Custom Coachbuilders to build them this 1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham station wagon to shuttle customers in that brought their cars in for service. The Fleetwood Brougham of this model year was already quite imposing, even compared to other cars of the era, but this wagon conversion gives it a huge amount of presence.

The owner of the Cadillac dealership’s mother liked this car so much, she ended up using it as her personal car. We can’t really blame her – Cadillac didn’t make a station wagon at the time, so if you wanted to ride in the ultimate expression of American luxury and retain the convenience of a wagon, a custom-built one like this is really your only option.

The Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham wagon will go under the gavel at RM Sotheby’s Auburn Fall auction in late August/early September. The auction house is predicting it will sell for between $15,000 and $20,000, which is certainly more than a Fleetwood Brougham of this vintage may otherwise sell for, but this car is quite unique, after all. It’s also been well taken care of, having sat in the Michigan-based Ed Meuer collection for a number of years.

 

 

 

 

http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/1979_Cadillac_Fleetwood.html

 

 

1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham station wagon
Pictures courtesy of owners Eddie & Marilynn
According to the owners, this is one of six produced, and has every option Cadillac offered including AM/FM-CB, power sun-roof, 2-way tailgate, and luggage rack.   It has 50k actual miles and was titled in the dealers name.

 

Remember, all Cadillac station wagons are third-party conversions (this wagon was converted by Hess & Eisenhardt); Cadillac has yet to offer a station wagon from the factory.

 

[JeRita]

This Cadillac was ordered new from a dealership in Memphis Tenn as a station wagon, because they had show dogs. We believe the coachbuilder was Wisco in Detroit I have seen 2 other 1985 and 86 that are identical to our 87. There are no records left of Wisco to be sure but the others had documentation of the build. According to the original owner's son the cost was double the cost of a standard brougham. It is built on a standard chassis not the commercial chassis. Here is the rear of the car, it has the standard GM 2 way tailgate and folding center and rear seats. The chassis was lengthened 12 inches but the wheelbase remains normal. It is definitely not a professional car.  

[John348]

Hello JeRita,

 

Where were the photos taken?  I am pretty sure it is on Long Island, just curious where, nice to see an open dock like that again without rails and barriers.

Thanks

[JeRita]

The pictures were taken at the East Islip marina last year when everyone was home 

[John348]

Thanks, I knew the background looked familiar. Great looking car

[joe_padavano]

20 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Even Hurst Olds were converted outside the plant.

 

Well, some of them were. 😉

 

But Steve is right, this is no different than Yenko, Nikey, or even Shelby cars.

[8E45E]

In the Muscle Car world, they are known as 'Day 2' cars; the point where it leaves the factory, but before it's actually sold to the end user and the manufacturer's warranty starts.

 

Craig

[Steve Moskowitz]

Well, some of them were. 😉

 

Joe, I should have known not to make a generalization when you are on the thread!   Of course , Demmer handled them for a time and then some were built in-house.  Actually even some sun-roof cars were sent out to be installed and not done at Olds.  Add the special marketing packages that dealer groups did and things become murky.  I always wondered what would happen if the Cutlass GMO's  (Gallant Men of Olds)would show up at a AACA show field as there would not be a lot of documentation available.

[8E45E]

1 minute ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Well, some of them were. 😉

 

Actually even some sun-roof cars were sent out to be installed and not done at Olds.  Add the special marketing packages that dealer groups did and things become murky.  

That was true for nearly all the 1980's convertibles as well.  American Sunroof Corp., did the majority of those conversions, besides sunroofs.  Chrysler didn't start building convertibles 'in house' again until the 1989 LeBaron.  In the 1950's Ionia Body division of Mitchell-Bentley made lots of station wagon bodies for GM, Mercury and Dodge, as did U.S. Body & Forging prior to that in the 1930's and 1940's.

 

Craig

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Well, some of them were. 😉

 

Joe, I should have known not to make a generalization when you are on the thread!   Of course , Demmer handled them for a time and then some were built in-house.  Actually even some sun-roof cars were sent out to be installed and not done at Olds.  Add the special marketing packages that dealer groups did and things become murky.  I always wondered what would happen if the Cutlass GMO's  (Gallant Men of Olds)would show up at a AACA show field as there would not be a lot of documentation available.

 

I was under the impression that the RPO Y76 regional special cars were factory built.

 

[rocketraider]

Ionia made Buick and Olds full-size wagon bodies thru 1964. Possibly Pontiac and Chevrolet though I've never seen documentation. They have "IONIA" sill plates.

 

So, outsourcing low-production or unusual body styles is nothing new. If someone else is set up to do it cheaper and quicker than can be done in-house on a fast-moving production line, make use of available resources.

 

On those Y76 Olds "marketing group cars", you have to take it on faith. Y76 was a RPO and as such the basics are factory installed. I have the Y76 info and part #s, but FAIK the individual sales zone appearance trinkets have none and may cause issues. At least the 1988 Cutlass GT has a good paper trail, which I've had to use on a couple of Olds snobs who refused to believe it was built with Oldsmobile's full cooperation and blessing.

[joe_padavano]

3 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

On those Y76 Olds "marketing group cars", you have to take it on faith. Y76 was a RPO and as such the basics are factory installed.

 

Yeah, but to Steve's point, the 1968 H/O carried RPO W45 and W46. 😉

I guess to your point, the "basics" (ie, the 455 and modified TH400) were factory-installed on those cars also.

[rocketraider]

Yeah, and one of those "Olds snobs" claim to fame is "uncovering" that the 455s were installed in 68-9 H/O at the factory instead of at Demmer- flying in the face of GM's then-400 cid limit in A-bodies and, 20+ years later, making life uncomfortable for some Olds folks who were involved in H/O development and still working there. That drunk made himself a lot of enemies at Oldsmobile over that.

 

Back to coachwork, Olds and Buick dropped their full-size wagons again in 65, letting Vista Cruiser and Sportwagon cover their "big" wagon market. DK if Ionia had anything to do with the stretched Skyroof A-body wagons. As many of those as were built, were probably done in-house.

[joe_padavano]

21 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Yeah, and one of those "Olds snobs" claim to fame is "uncovering" that the 455s were installed in 68-9 H/O at the factory instead of at Demmer- flying in the face of GM's then-400 cid limit in A-bodies and, 20+ years later, making life uncomfortable for some Olds folks who were involved in H/O development and still working there. That drunk made himself a lot of enemies at Oldsmobile over that.

 

I have to say that I've always considered the Demmer-installed story more as providing plausible deniability than fact. First, there is hard factory documentation from the 1968-69 period that clearly proves Olds installed the drivetrains. SOMEONE saw these documents and signed them - they have 1968 and 69 signature dates on them. Second, common sense would tell you that there had to be an engine installed in the car on the assembly line for the other parts to be hung and for the car to be physically driven off the end of the line. Did anyone ever believe that Olds really installed 400 motors on the line and then had Demmer take them out? Any engine installed on the line would have had a VIN derivative stamp, and the 455 would need to have the same stamp to be legal. What happened to all those brand new 400s? They couldn't be reinstalled into 442s built later. There's no record of them, not one photo of Demmer installing an engine.

 

Of course, the letter that documents the Demmer scope of work covers shifter installation and painting, but doesn't say anything about engine swapping. 😉

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[tomcarnut]

Here’s my two cents. The car looks to be original so why not HPOF? I showed my 1984 Ford E350 Tioga Motorhome at Hershey after some friends started showing their GMC motor home. This motorhome was purchased new by a friend that used it to vend at the Swap meet as did I. I dressed up as “Cousin Eddie” with Sewer hose in hand and got lots of looks! It rained the morning of the show so was very handy. I got my HPOF original later at Auburn. Unfortunately I got tired of working on it and bought a new Motorhome that I use in vending at the swap meet now and tow my brass cars. Maybe in 23 years, I can show it. 

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Ionia made Buick and Olds full-size wagon bodies thru 1964. Possibly Pontiac and Chevrolet though I've never seen documentation. They have "IONIA" sill plates.

Yep, or on the seat trim:

 

Craig

[padgett]

Might wonder how many are required for it to be considered a production model ? OTOH the 20s and 30s are full of custom bodies that have classes.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Of course we had the marketing group cars  (Y76) but the bigger ad groups had enough firepower to commission special models on their own that did not go through the traditional process.  They were unique to the Zone involved.  The volume allowed them to do that.  Lots of different things happened back in the day from special paint jobs (I had a dealer order 50 pink champagne Regency 98's for example when IO was a rep) to special editions.

 

HPOF is not necessarily a good option as the car still needs to meet the requirement "as delivered by the dealer".  As many of you realize there are many gray areas that cause us a lot of consternation in our desire to protect the history of the automobile as manufactured.  That is why we have a committee to vet the vehicles that do not fit the "box". 

 

Everyone has a right to their opinions and we respect that but AACA has chosen to be very careful and not to try to be all things to all people but to protect our mission of saving cars as built by the factory.  Yes, we have a "driver" class and yes our race car program is chocked full of modified cars but they all have to be certified as correct for the time they raced. We are fully aware that other clubs allow modified cars and that is great but for US, it flies in the face as to our whole reason for being.

 

The owner of the wagon is getting all the necessary info to show his car in AACA and I personally hope we get to see it! 

 

 

[Dandy Dave]

Nice Caddy. Welcome aboard. Dandy Dave! 

[AnniesSS]

Hi Jerry & Rita!

Hope to see the Caddy out at shows!  Would be great to see you both also!
Annie