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4 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

I have heard of permits for 400 Amp services being pulled for homes and marijuana growing indoors is one of the reasons. I suspect some of our very large homes also need that much.

 

Hey Mike,

 

The size of the service  is predicated on the square footage of the structure and if single or multiple occupancy, a request to upgrade to a 400 amp service would draw a red flag. Yes indeed, a very a large home would require a 400 amp service, but keeping it all in perspective if someone can afford to own and maintain a home that large, is the cost of installing an additional 30 amp outlet a concern?  

 

As I mentioned in a prior post, some of the auto manufacturer's are considering including the charging outlet with the purchase or lease of a new vehicle. I only wish I was starting out in the trade now. the work opportunity is very good (plus I would not mind being 45 years younger) 

 

My middle son is in the trade and he told me a few months ago he was preparing and estimate for the electrical contractor he is employed by for a few hundred charging stations for a car rental agency at both JFK and LaGuardia Airport's in NYC. 

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52k for a Model 3.........thought they were 35k for a Plain Jane. My last every day car purchase was a Ford Focus, 12 years old, 35k miles, paid 2200 bucks. That was six years and 80k miles ago. Car is still fine for us. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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$52k for a Canadian Model 3.  US version is floating between $36-38k, seems pricing fluctuates based on material costs and Elon’s state of mind on any given day.  The Model Y is more popular in the US than Model 3 right now.  It’s base is around $40k depending on the day of the week and the phase of the moon.

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A 200Amp all copper service was $200 extra when I had the house built in '85. Normal was 150A  (60A side service for HVAC). Think my first house had a 60A service but gas heat and fridge.

 

Think we calculated (back in 70s) to have a solar car you would need a 40 foot flatbed of solar cells to tow along.

 

Thanks to Florida/Duke power I have lost mains power for a week at a time.

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The carbon footprint from the manufacture of my '60 Electra and my '64 Riviera were incinerated in the atmosphere during the nuclear surface tests of the 1970's and '80's. The small amount of fuel and oil I have used with them is insignificant. I have found that surface testing of atomic weapons has totaled 540 megatons of explosions between 1943 and 1990. That is megaton not kiloton.

Looks to me like someone broke the sky and has blown a smoke screen over the root cause.

 

 

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

John, I defer to you on the national codes and only know what I have experienced. My home has a 800 amp service. In Massachusetts you can't get anything done for 2500 dollars. As far as gas vs charging............time is the difference. And long lines of people waiting. People hanging around for an hour or more with music blaring, ect.........charging is a different animal. By the way, 5k in my estimation was for running three lines into a garage for three chargers.

 

That is ridiculous.  If your wife wanted a new electric clothes dryer installed in the garage (requires a 30 amp 240V circuit), are you saying it would cost at least $5k to get the electrical work done?

 

I get by with a 30 amp (24 amp continuous) circuit in my garage for my Model 3 just fine.  Can charge the 75 kWh battery pack from empty to full overnight - about 12 hours - though one NEVER does that in practice.

 

If I want to charge faster, I have a 50 amp (40 continuous) setup on the other side of the house by the entrance panel which would cut that time almost in half.  Could easily upgrade that to a 60 amp circuit (48 continuous) to max out what the onboard charger in the car is capable of taking.  Ironically, we normally use the 50 amp setup with our Volt.  Its onboard charger can only draw 16 amps.  Just the way we normally park the cars that the Tesla ends up with the slower connection.

 

We put in a 200 amp service 25 years ago when we installed central AC.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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In the event of a shift to solar powered cars lower volumes of gasoline production could raise prices at the pump. Since "wealthy" electric car owners would have an advantage in lower priced fuel and the "poor", owning their old, fossil fuel vehicles, would be seen as disadvantaged it is quite likely that an added tax or surcharge will be placed on designated electricity for fuel to subsidize gasoline for the poor.

This has already happened in Arizona with "wealthy" homeowners eligible for solar panels while the "poor" renter faces increased electric rates.

The Robin Hood syndrome may create quite a disadvantage to the future electric car buyer even though it may be their only new car option.

 

"Ben, as I was riding back from western Pennsylvania I got the notion that we might be able to tax sunshine".

 

 

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Well, let’s see. Run three lines to a finished garage.....my garage has the same finish as the entire house..........same wood work, tiles, windows, ect it’s just under 1100 sq feet, 12 foot ceilings ..........I would run three legs of 100 amp today. What’s in there now are three 60’s as that was my best guess back in 2001. (I set it up for lifts, welding, and electric cars.) From the box to the garage is about 140 feet. (Garage is attached.) The permit is 400 or 10 percent of the 5k guess for cost. Probably needs another box, ground fault, ect, ect, ect. I don’t use aluminum wire..........so in a decent custom house, 5k is about right figuring sheetrock, paint to finish five, ect...... (I have a small home for my neighborhood, my neighbor across the street has five times the square footage I do.) In my local area in Florida, we just had an estimate on 8700 for one line into a complicated garage (House was 1200 per sq foot.) with super high end finishes. So, while you may run a 30 amp into a unfinished space cheaply, in a custom home.............it’s gonna run you money. My house has an 800 amp service. 400 for a typical 2500 square foot home in my neighborhood. Yes, it’s above average but building a custom home is expensive. My shop has a 1200 amp service. At one time it was a bowling alley. Having had outbuildings with power issues in the past, I over build. Then again, my single car trailer is a triple axel with a gvw of 21k for a single car............I don’t gamble, and I don’t take short cuts.....on my home, my shop, or in my work. Do it right once. The expensive part of my home service was the underground run........schedule 80 for 1100 feet. A older single family on a 50 x100 lot would be less expensive...........except the place would probably have a 60 amp service. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Can do a lot with proper planning. Most people in my development (with an HOA) have swimming pools & has sidewalks. I have a garage but like most with pools, little is visible from the street (and half of my garage doors face the back). Lot is 85x150 and was designed for my hobby. So 2k sq ft house, 2k sq ft garage, 200A service. Since I am the only worker and do not weld have plenty of power. Just do one thing at a time so even 7K lift is not a bother. Major draw is all of the lights.  Fences and natural vegetation keep rear private. On a circle street so no through traffic. Suits me.

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Ed,

It looks like there is a little confusion. I am pretty sure what have a 200 amp 3 wire service to your shop, consisting of two 'hot' legs and a neutral. Each of those hot leg are backed up on a 200 amp main breaker, so technically you do have two legs that can give you 200 amps. What I think you are doing is adding total capacity of those legs together, thus assuming it is 400 amps. In theory you are correct, but that is not considered a 400 amp service. I think what you have is  2-200 amp services. You are not the first person that made this assumption. 

A 400 amp 3 phase 400 amp service would require a 4" conduit, and the conductors would be 500 MCM. It is a total different thing,  thus it would provide 1200 amps, that is not how it works. I don't even think they make a single phase 208 volt 400 amp main breaker. 

To run a 30 amp circuit should not require any filing, it no different then a adding a dryer outlet or a compressor outlet. It would only require 2 men for 4 hours or 1 man for the day. WIth material no more then $500 to $650. If someone says to a customer that they have to charge $400 filing for adding a 30 amp or a 60 amp circuit to an existing panel, they are a crook and should be reported. 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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Pessimistic outlooks on EV’s are almost always framed by applying current electric infrastructure and economics to their arguments.  As if overnight we will all be doomed because millions of EV’s will suddenly appear.  
 

Over time, money will move where it needs to move to make them work.  If they don’t work and can’t be charged usefully, people won’t buy them.  If you think we are going to be forced into them before it’s reasonable to use them, then you have other problems that EV’s just seem to trigger.  
 

Problems will ultimately exist just as they do in any industry.  Those who solve them will be billionaires.  Our country is the most mobile on Earth.  We are becoming less and less so.  There are endless dynamics at play that will never stop moving in whatever direction the money is.

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When I said "200A service" that meant two live power lines that together are 240vac and can be used with a neutral for each leg of a 120vac circuit box. Didn't think there was anything else common for residential in this country

 

All I know is that in the evening on a hot day people get home from work and turn their ACs on. This sometimes triggers a brownout. Also in a bad storm it is not unusual for tens of thousands of people to lose all power often for days at a time. I have enough generator power to provide lights, keep the refrigerators going, infotainment, and provide AC in the bedroom. Just part of life in Florida.

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15 minutes ago, padgett said:

When I said "200A service" that meant two live power lines that together are 240vac and can be used with a neutral for each leg of a 120vac circuit box. Didn't think there was anything else common for residential in this country

 

Correct, I would venture to say that with the A/C on, and everything running in the average home I would be surprised if a house is drawing more than 60-75 amps on each leg. 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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John, I’m sure you must be correct......I know I have three boxes at the house up north........and if I remember correctly they probably did a split out of the underground service.......there is an underground cement room or box the size of a small septic tank........they set it up for two homes as I have a spare lot, and was planning for a large shop........I had plans at one time for a 12,000 square foot shop............but decided against having my shop at the house..........it was a good decision. I can tell you running the power that far underground almost made me pass out when I got the bill! There is three phase for the shop, but the house only has single phase. 

 

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All of this is interesting but pointless. There will NOT be the resources of raw materials  to make the computer chips all these new cars need and use!  Unless we pay the price China wants to charge us, while they continue to pollute at at rate far exceeding what we have said is necessary. 
our old cars will be the only ones on the road!! 
dave s 

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Yes and how long did it take to build the current network of gas stations.

 

So put the recharging station next to a bar and we will need autonomous cars.

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4 hours ago, padgett said:

Yes and how long did it take to build the current network of gas stations.

 

So put the recharging station next to a bar and we will need autonomous cars.

 

I'd argue there are more electrical outlets in the U.S. than gas stations by several orders of magnitude.  Just over 100K gas stations, and 80M homes.  Each home has dozens of receptacles.  Some even in the garage.  The vast majority of EV charging takes place at home.  Also a lot of companies offer free charging for their employees as a perq.  (My wife benefited from workplace charging for several years.)

 

In my mind, there are two main use cases for public charging facilities:  1.) Road trips, and 2.) Condo/apartment dwellers

 

The first is quite doable.  I've driven all over California, and cross country to the Midwest and back in my Model 3 with little problem.  The Tesla Supercharging network is reasonably fast and reliable.  Various DCFC networks for non-Teslas are being built, but aren't quite as seamless as what Tesla is doing yet.  A large amount of the VW Dieselgate settlement money is being used for this, in the form of Electrify America.

 

The second really is a problem.  I think laws/regulations, or removing them, such that some form of EV charging facilities are "encouraged" are a Good Thing.  And increasingly, EV owners will choose condos/apartments that have facilities over those that don't.  So there is the "invisible hand of the market" factor as well.  It will take many years though.

 

In one of my postings above, I was using an example of a 30 amp/240V connection.  But in some use cases, even the lowly 15 amp/120V receptacles we all know and love can be useful.  Super slow charging - and cold climates the battery heater will use most of the power.  I wouldn't tolerate it, but some people who don't drive much do just fine.  And for the once in a while they need to charge up fast, hopefully there is a DCFC site nearby.

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Most homes have a 240/30A outlet for the water heater and/or the dryer. Outlets are not really my concern, it is the infrastructure to support millions of outlets needing hours of charging. Even my home AC only runs about 25% of the time & only pulls max current for a few seconds.

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3 hours ago, padgett said:

Most homes have a 240/30A outlet for the water heater and/or the dryer. Outlets are not really my concern, it is the infrastructure to support millions of outlets needing hours of charging. Even my home AC only runs about 25% of the time & only pulls max current for a few seconds.

 

That infrastructure support has been going for many years. At the commercial and municipal levels, LED's have had a huge impact, Commercial fluorescent lighting was a constant draw, combine that with efficient building management systems. I would not be to concerned, we have some of the brightest minds in the world in this country, while your concern is valid it is a sure thing that someone else had already thought of this what appears to be obvious problem a long time ago. 

The sky is not falling, 

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You haven't done all the math on that John. California is loath to build new plants. In the early 2000's was the "energy crisis" with Enron and all, and Calpine stepped up, and built some natural gas power plants. The price per kwh at the wholesale level dropped when there was no longer a shortage, and Calpine, which amassed a $10 Billion debt building plants could not make payments on it's debt and went bankrupt and reorganized in 2006. Since then I think there has been next to no power plant construction. There are incentives for people to install solar panels, which does not add up to a significant percentage of the power delivered.

 

And our biggest plant, the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant which has two units at 1,100 megawatts each is set to be decommissioned.

 

250px-Diablo_Canyon_Nuclear_Power_Plant.jpg

 

EV's do not have a significant impact only because there are so few of them. And many are being bought by wealthy elderly retired people who do not need to commute to work, and don't use them that much. The bulk of the heavy commuting is certainly being done by conventional vehicles, fossil fuel. Lots of hybrids too which is good.

 

Edited by mike6024 (see edit history)
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Note: I don’t currently own a battery EV. I do however own a plug-in hybrid which is more than happy with a 120v outlet for charging. And I charge it after midnight when my time of use electrical costs drop.

 

But I have been researching EVs which has led me to all sorts of information I was ignorant of before I started looking. And based on the comments and questions I see on these EV related thread a lot of my previous misconceptions are shared by others here.

 

4 hours ago, padgett said:

Most homes have a 240/30A outlet for the water heater and/or the dryer. Outlets are not really my concern, it is the infrastructure to support millions of outlets needing hours of charging. Even my home AC only runs about 25% of the time & only pulls max current for a few seconds.

The problem of time based loads (AC during afternoon and evening, EV charging when people get home, etc.) is being worked on right now in some areas and the techniques to deal with it have apparently been scaled up to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of home charging stations.

 

On the regulation/utility side of things, at least in California, it is a “Demand Response Provider”(DRP) program for large users of electricity. For smaller users (like homes with EV chargers) you can go through “aggregators” which are apparently a single DRP that controls numerous individual chargers (or other energy hungry smart devices). As I understand it, the DRP acts as a virtual power plant on the wholesale utility grid market where they reduce the imbalance between load and generation by removing load (rather than increasing supply like a conventional power plant). If the grid is load is higher than generation generators can bid to supply electricity while DPRs can bid to decrease the load. I think it might also work in reverse for excessive generation (a potential problem with solar electric, see below).

 

On the end user side, you can sign up to have your home charger controlled by an DRP aggregator who guarantees that your car will be fully charged by the time you need it in the morning. They manage a host of residential EV chargers and then enable, disable, set charging rates, etc. on the individual chargers based on the bids they have won on the wholesale electrical grid market. In return for letting them control your EV charger they give you some of the money they earned by selling the load response to the grid. No single charger amounts to much on the grid load but thousands of them do so the aggregator has some benefit to offer to the grid.

 

One such provider is JuiceBox which calls their program JuiceNet where you earn ”JuicePoints” which are redeemed for cash. Here is a quote from their FAQ page:

Quote

By managing your EV with other EVs charging on JuiceNet, Enel X is able to reduce EV charging consumption by significant amounts during peak periods. We can increase charging when demand for electricity is low, and decrease charging when demand is high. This helps your electricity provider balance supply and demand on the grid and reduce the overall cost of your electricity. With enough vehicles, grid operators can reduce their reliance on dirty “peaker plants” and integrate more renewables like wind and solar. With tens of thousands of connected EVs, we can make the grid cleaner!

 

27 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

You haven't done all the math on that John. California is loath to build new plants. In the early 2000's was the "energy crisis" with Enron and all, and Calpine stepped up, and built some natural gas power plants. The price per kwh at the wholesale level dropped when there was no longer a shortage, and Calpine, which amassed a $10 Billion debt building plants could not make payments on it's debt and went bankrupt and reorganized in 2006. Since then I think there has been next to no power plant construction. There are incentives for people to install solar panels, which does not add up to a significant percentage of the power delivered.

 

And our biggest plant, the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant which has two units at 1,100 megawatts each is set to be decommissioned.

 

EV's do not have a significant impact only because there are so few of them. And many are being bought by wealthy elderly retired people who do not need to commute to work, and don't use them that much. The bulk of the heavy commuting is certainly being done by conventional vehicles, fossil fuel. Lots of hybrids too which is good.

 

 

Not sure about “no power plant construction”. There may have been few or no fossil fuel plants built but there have been a number of utility scale solar and wind generation plants built.

 

Odd thing about home solar is that it is treated as negative load rather than positive generation. Between utility solar (supply) and roof top solar (negative demand) it is possible the supply to exceed demand leading to negative electrical prices at the wholesale market. I see in that linked article from 2017 that “utilities in CAISO last year reported 5.4 GW of net-metered distributed solar capacity at the end of last year”. That is more than the 2.2 GW you list for Diablo Canyon and based on what I see where I live there has been a lot more roof top solar installed since then.

 

I guess the young couple in the apartment down the street who just purchased a Tesla are an exception to your “wealthily retired people”. :) I was interested in it so I stopped by and chatted with them. For what it is worth, they are charging it from a 120v outlet off of an extension cord. Lack of a 240v charger and the inability of them to get their landlord to install one did not deter them from making the purchase which I found interesting.

 

There are a heck of a lot of Teslas and other EVs in town and my general impression is that the drivers are generally middle aged or younger. I haven’t investigated EV demographics enough to tell if you are correct or not, but my gut feel from what I see around town indicates differently.

 

6 minutes ago, nick8086 said:

Any body know the cost to add a charging station in the garage. I know my panel is maxed out.. 

 

More cost??

 

I still own a few houses with this type..

unnamed.jpg

If my main electrical panel looked like that I'd be on the phone to an electrician to replace it as soon as possible even if I never planned to get an EV. If nothing else to get lower insurance rates. My current house was built in the 1950s but a previous owner had fully remodeled including putting in current standard electrical. I found that once my insurance company was assured that the electrical was up to current standards they reduced my premiums.

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Looks like the 60A service in my first house (in Indiana).

 

Suspect part of the popularity for EVs out west is the high gasoline price in California (taxes ?). Right now 87 PON is $2.53/gallon in Orlando and $3.65 in LaLaLand (gasbuddy.com). Here they are still more of a status thing. O'town does have two Tesla dealers now.

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10 hours ago, nick8086 said:

Any body know the cost to add a charging station in the garage. I know my panel is maxed out.. 

 

More cost??

 

I still own a few houses with this type..

unnamed.jpg

 

Nothing to be proud of, my friend, especially if it is rental income. I hope the other homes that you own generate enough income for you to make them safe for the tenants. Maybe save that panel and see if the Smithsonian would want it.

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1 hour ago, padgett said:

Looks like the 60A service in my first house (in Indiana).

 

Suspect part of the popularity for EVs out west is the high gasoline price in California (taxes ?). Right now 87 PON is $2.53/gallon in Orlando and $3.65 in LaLaLand (gasbuddy.com). Here they are still more of a status thing. O'town does have two Tesla dealers now.

 

Padgett - you _really_ need to test drive a Tesla.  Then you'll see why they are becoming so popular.  Model 3 is selling at near Camry/Accord levels here in CA.  It's not just a "status" thing, and frankly doesn't have a lot to do with the price of gas.  They are fun to drive!

10 hours ago, nick8086 said:

Any body know the cost to add a charging station in the garage. I know my panel is maxed out.. 

 

More cost??

 

I still own a few houses with this type..

unnamed.jpg

 

Yeow!  If the house is so old it still has K&T wiring and fuses, um, it has bigger problems than which car the owner drives.  The original part of my house was first built in 1950 and even it had breakers - though mostly wired with the old two-wire, no safety ground, cloth covered "Romex" of the day.  I replaced the panel did some rewiring 25 years ago when we upgraded to 200 amp service.  And 98% of the wiring replaced when we enlarged and mostly rebuilt the house in 2009.

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@mike6024- It is true that Diablo Canyon is going to be shut down in 2025, and we lost SONGS a few years ago.  I used to be a big fan of nuke, and to some extent, still am.  Wish we had replaced all the dirty coal with it decades ago.  Ironically, the enviro-wackos prevented it.  But nuke is a 'base level' generation capability.  It doesn't follow varying loads well.  So it must be supplemented with other forms of generation that are more agile.  For the past 10-20 years, that has meant natgas - and more specifically modern combined cycle and "peaker" plants.  Combine those with cheap, yes "fracked", natgas has meant nuke and coal have been on the way out for a while.  Even older non-combined cycle natgas plants have been shut down as uneconomical.

 

One example I can point to near me is at Moss Landing CA.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Power_Plant)  The plant was originally built to burn natgas and fuel oil.  Over time, the original generation was replaced with combined cycle.  Now the site is morphing into a major battery storage system site - to capture excess daytime solar production and feed it into the grid at night.  All the grid connections are already there.

 

It is really interesting to watch the stats at the Cal ISO web site on grid demand and how it is being supplied.  (http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html and http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.aspx)  Both have changed A LOT over the past decade.

 

On the demand side, it used to be that peak grid demand was in the mid-afternoon, on weekdays.  This coincided with peoples workdays, A/C usage, and so on.  However with the advent of customer owned rooftop solar, the mid-day peak had completely disappeared during most of the year.  There are now two peaks/day - in the early morning before solar kicks in, and in the evening when everyone is home cooking meals, lights, and and watching TV.  On the Cal ISO Demand web page, they also show a second graph where they subtract grid-level wind and solar from the demand to see what the demand is from conventional sources (e.g., natgas, nuke, and hydro).

 

If you look at the supply side web page, you can see that for weeks now we have actually exported power to surrounding states during part of the day.  And that is with Diablo Canyon only operating one of their two reactors.  There is now so much solar on both the grid and customer sides of the meters, the need for "base load" generation is quickly disappearing.  It easily explains why the failures at SONGS were probably a blessing in disguise, and Diablo Canyon really does need to shut down soon.  (Google "duck curve".)

 

For much of the U.S., especially in the South and West, the future really is solar/wind as they are the cheapest form of generation, combined with battery storage.  The neat thing for us homeowners is that we can often do the same on our own roofs - and treat the grid as a backup, rather than primary source of energy.

 

The march of technology is unstoppable.  So it will happen.  Like EVs, this is all going to take years to play out - no matter what the pols in WDC think.  Lots of stranded assets to use up and write off.

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2 hours ago, wws944 said:

 

Padgett - you _really_ need to test drive a Tesla.  Then you'll see why they are becoming so popular.  Model 3 is selling at near Camry/Accord levels here in CA.  It's not just a "status" thing, and frankly doesn't have a lot to do with the price of gas.  They are fun to drive!

 

Yeow!  If the house is so old it still has K&T wiring and fuses, um, it has bigger problems than which car the owner drives.  The original part of my house was first built in 1950 and even it had breakers - though mostly wired with the old two-wire, no safety ground, cloth covered "Romex" of the day.  I replaced the panel did some rewiring 25 years ago when we upgraded to 200 amp service.  And 98% of the wiring replaced when we enlarged and mostly rebuilt the house in 2009.

 

 

I suppose " fun to drive " is a pretty subjective quality. 

For me a V8 Miata or MGB  would tick that box. And I expect at a rather cheaper cost than a Tesla.

A closed car that is hefty to say the least, albeit with of lots of power vs cars that are basic roadsters with relatively low weight and great road manners.

Different strokes.

 

 

Greg

 

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

I suppose " fun to drive " is a pretty subjective quality. 

For me a V8 Miata or MGB  would tick that box. And I expect at a rather cheaper cost than a Tesla.

A closed car that is hefty to say the least, albeit with of lots of power vs cars that are basic roadsters with relatively low weight and great road manners.

Different strokes.

 

For weekend fun cars, sure.  I love old cars and wouldn't be frequenting this site if I didn't.  But for a daily driver, EVs are increasingly the way to go.

 

Model 3 weighs high 3000 lb range - not too far from other well-equipped cars of its size.  Battery pack is under the floor and between the wheels.  So very low center of gravity and excellent weight distribution.  It is great in the mountain twisties around here, just like my old 944 is.  But in some ways even better.  (Instant TQ blasting out of curves. :D)

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True: why I have SLKs and Allantes (2 of each, one nice & one not so) and have less than $15k in all of them. Have less than that in my '11 CTS Coupe and all of my cars are paid for. When a nice used Tesla is under $10k I might think about it.

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1 hour ago, wws944 said:

 

For weekend fun cars, sure.  I love old cars and wouldn't be frequenting this site if I didn't.  But for a daily driver, EVs are increasingly the way to go.

 

Model 3 weighs high 3000 lb range - not too far from other well-equipped cars of its size.  Battery pack is under the floor and between the wheels.  So very low center of gravity and excellent weight distribution.  It is great in the mountain twisties around here, just like my old 944 is.  But in some ways even better.  (Instant TQ blasting out of curves. :D)

 

 

I am retired now so every drive has the potential to be the same as "weekend fun ". But my daily driver back a couple years ago when I was still a wage slave just had to meet one requirement, be as cheap as possible and get me reliably back and forth. The only way to have some $ left over to indulge the hobby car itch.

A $10,000, less than 1 year old trade in , Hyundai Accent , 5 speed , hatchback was exactly the right car. 11 years later it is just as cheap to run as ever, and still 100% reliable despite a lot of miles on the clock. And it has hauled more stuff home than many have hauled in their light truck. Lumber , engines, roll away tool boxes , a 1925 Hudson rear end , drum to drum. Passenger seat comes out in about 2 minutes and 4 cyl. engines fit right in. A Korean hatch back, pick up truck.

 Plus it actually is quite quick for a little commuter. Not very much weight at all, 1600, 4 valve dohc , vvt engine. A bit mushy compared to a 944 , but if pushed a lot more capable than one would expect. 

  Those that have a budget that includes well- equipped cars might chuckle to themselves. But if I want a hobby car or two I will never be in that group.

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4 hours ago, wws944 said:

@mike6024- It is true that Diablo Canyon is going to be shut down in 2025, and we lost SONGS a few years ago.  I used to be a big fan of nuke, and to some extent, still am.  Wish we had replaced all the dirty coal with it decades ago.  Ironically, the enviro-wackos prevented it.  But nuke is a 'base level' generation capability.  It doesn't follow varying loads well.  So it must be supplemented with other forms of generation that are more agile.  For the past 10-20 years, that has meant natgas - and more specifically modern combined cycle and "peaker" plants.  Combine those with cheap, yes "fracked", natgas has meant nuke and coal have been on the way out for a while.  Even older non-combined cycle natgas plants have been shut down as uneconomical.

 

One example I can point to near me is at Moss Landing CA.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Power_Plant)  The plant was originally built to burn natgas and fuel oil.  Over time, the original generation was replaced with combined cycle.  Now the site is morphing into a major battery storage system site - to capture excess daytime solar production and feed it into the grid at night.  All the grid connections are already there.

 

It is really interesting to watch the stats at the Cal ISO web site on grid demand and how it is being supplied.  (http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html and http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.aspx)  Both have changed A LOT over the past decade.

 

On the demand side, it used to be that peak grid demand was in the mid-afternoon, on weekdays.  This coincided with peoples workdays, A/C usage, and so on.  However with the advent of customer owned rooftop solar, the mid-day peak had completely disappeared during most of the year.  There are now two peaks/day - in the early morning before solar kicks in, and in the evening when everyone is home cooking meals, lights, and and watching TV.  On the Cal ISO Demand web page, they also show a second graph where they subtract grid-level wind and solar from the demand to see what the demand is from conventional sources (e.g., natgas, nuke, and hydro).

 

If you look at the supply side web page, you can see that for weeks now we have actually exported power to surrounding states during part of the day.  And that is with Diablo Canyon only operating one of their two reactors.  There is now so much solar on both the grid and customer sides of the meters, the need for "base load" generation is quickly disappearing.  It easily explains why the failures at SONGS were probably a blessing in disguise, and Diablo Canyon really does need to shut down soon.  (Google "duck curve".)

 

For much of the U.S., especially in the South and West, the future really is solar/wind as they are the cheapest form of generation, combined with battery storage.  The neat thing for us homeowners is that we can often do the same on our own roofs - and treat the grid as a backup, rather than primary source of energy.

 

The march of technology is unstoppable.  So it will happen.  Like EVs, this is all going to take years to play out - no matter what the pols in WDC think.  Lots of stranded assets to use up and write off.

 

 

Is the Moss site going to use up the local farmland? It's some of the most productive in the hemisphere.............

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Is the Moss site going to use up the local farmland? It's some of the most productive in the hemisphere.............

 

The battery storage system is all on-site at the power plant.  The area has been fenced off for decades.  I think the fuel oil tanks were once in the same spot.  Not much farmland adjacent, though quite a bit starting a couple miles away.

 

Perhaps interesting to folks here - there is a Pick N Pull just uphill from the Moss Landing site that I occasionally frequent for old car parts.  They just downsized the yard a couple years ago.  Used to be another wrecked car yard there too, but it has since closed down.

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2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

wws944- going from memory..........I live 3000 miles away! 

 

About 20 years ago, I had a consulting gig in Monterey for a couple of years.  So I used to commute along Highway 1 though Moss Landing several times a week.  Fun doing the reverse commute between the Bay Area and Monterey.  The twisties on Highway 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz, combined with the beautiful farm land and driving along the coast between Santa Cruz and Monterey.  Always fun to do in the 944.  Though I usually drove the beater '90 Buick Regal I also had at the time.

 

Farms north of the power plant grow Watsonville strawberries.  South of it grow Castroville artichokes.

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36 minutes ago, wws944 said:

 

About 20 years ago, I had a consulting gig in Monterey for a couple of years.  So I used to commute along Highway 1 though Moss Landing several times a week.  Fun doing the reverse commute between the Bay Area and Monterey.  The twisties on Highway 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz, combined with the beautiful farm land and driving along the coast between Santa Cruz and Monterey.  Always fun to do in the 944.  Though I usually drove the beater '90 Buick Regal I also had at the time.

 

Farms north of the power plant grow Watsonville strawberries.  South of it grow Castroville artichokes.

 

And that whole area is full of great roads for touring around with an antique car. Did that a lot when we lived in Sunnyvale.

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Have lived in Florida for thutty five yars but used to spend more time in Sunnyvale with periodic hikes to Edwards (remember hearing on the radio that the air had improved to "unhealthy") than at home. Can't talk about time spent at a "lake" north of Vegas. Do not have to save the world any more.

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Sonoma Clean Power, MCE seek battery storage optionsSCP Completes Its Third Local Renewable Energy… | Sonoma Clean Power

 

Sonoma County is doing this. Frankly I am disgusted. And they want us to sign up for their "Green Energy Program" so we can pay extra in order to subsidize these projects.

I think the only people with high electric bills must have air conditioners, and I can't understand why anyone would want that in this climate. My electric bill is typically under $20. I would need to buy an EV to boost my electricity usage in order to justify putting panels on my roof.

 

 

 

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