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We don't care about that crash. The Fire Department says they found one person in the passenger seat, and one in the back seat, but no-one in the driver seat. I find that hard to believe. How do they know the driver didn't crawl over to the passenger side when it caught fire attempting to escape. Anyway people crash into trees all the time.

 

 

In the San Francisco bay area there are many commuters that do 6 miles each way every day. Like Tracy to Sunnyvale. Or Santa Rosa to San Francisco, which I did when doing surveying. $15 to $20 per day in gas, plus bridge tolls, $6 or $7. I would like to know if ALL those cars commuting, went electric, what is the total daily kilowatt hours. And if you commute 60 miles to work in the morning, the place where you park during the day will not necessarily let you charge your car while you are in the office. So you would be doing 120 miles, then need to charge that back up at home over night.

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55 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

I daresay a highly efficient solar panel could be designed into a vehicle's roof panel. Charge the batteries while driving or parked. Granted I don't keep up with the latest EV engineering but I don't recall seeing this proffered as a solution. Works for satellites and space probes, why not a wheeled road vehicle?

 

  • On peak sun days there is a bit over 1 kW/sq meter of solar energy hitting the ground. Less in winter, less when hazy, etc.
  • Typical good solar hours where you actually get that 1 kWh/sq. meter number about 5 in a day where I am (sunny SoCal) in summer. Likely half that in winter. And a lot less if you live in a northern state.
  • Current high end production solar photovoltaic panels are between 20% and 25% efficient.
  • I am guessing the top surface of the car usable or solar cells is about 3 square meters. (A quick measurement of my daily driver gives me 2.7 sq. meters of roof and hood area.)
  • So the top surfaces of your car could collect 5 hrs * 3 sq.mtr. * 0.25 efficiency * 1 kW/sq.mtr. is under 4 kWh a day. If you live in a southern, sun favored location. Less if you live in a rainy or northern area.
  • Typical EVs currently get between 3 and 4 miles/kWh.
  • So under very good conditions you will get maybe 12 to 16 miles per day from built in solar panels.
  • In the US the typical car is driven 31 miles per day.
  • So at best, you will only be able to get half your daily miles by solar panels on the top of the car.
  • In “real life” it will be a lot less.

The reason you don’t see it being offered as a general solution is the numbers don’t pencil out.

 

There are exceptions: If you make an extremely aerodynamic shape optimized to have lots of horizontal areas and load it up with solar cells you might get there. Or at least claim you got there.

 

But getting people to buy it when they want something more like an energy inefficient SUV is another hurdle.

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37 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

We don't care about that crash. The Fire Department says they found one person in the passenger seat, and one in the back seat, but no-one in the driver seat. I find that hard to believe. How do they know the driver didn't crawl over to the passenger side when it caught fire attempting to escape. Anyway people crash into trees all the time.

 

 

In the San Francisco bay area there are many commuters that do 6 miles each way every day. Like Tracy to Sunnyvale. Or Santa Rosa to San Francisco, which I did when doing surveying. $15 to $20 per day in gas, plus bridge tolls, $6 or $7. I would like to know if ALL those cars commuting, went electric, what is the total daily kilowatt hours. And if you commute 60 miles to work in the morning, the place where you park during the day will not necessarily let you charge your car while you are in the office. So you would be doing 120 miles, then need to charge that back up at home over night.

 

A good rule of thumb for most EVs is about 3.5-4 miles/kWh.  It is about 40 miles between Tracy and Sunnyvale.  So about 10-12 kWh each way.  I pay about $0.18366/kWh for off-peak charging.  So about $4/day.

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1 hour ago, 46 woodie said:

wws944, you need to check your facts. According to CNN News it took the firefighters over 4 hours to extinguish the fire and used 32,000 gallons of water, that's right 32,000. We, (Firefighters) have taken less time to extinguish raging building fires!

There are lots of conflicting news reports on this. At least one I saw quoted the fire chief as saying that it only took a few minutes to put the fire out. Others are given the multiple hours figure. Which is it? I don’t know.

 

Local police are saying they are very sure there was no one in the driver's seat when the accident happened. Yet Musk is claiming that the "auto pilot" was off implying there must have been a driver. It is unclear, at least to me, if Musk/Tesla knows that from telemetry from the car before the crash or based on the road design being one the auto pilot was not able deal with.

 

When I read the reports on this I try to keep in mind that journalists get paid to write stories that people will read. Doing that, they will often report on things they don’t understand, garbling things up. They will often rush to publish with unchecked “facts” in order to beat their competition. So no single news report on this should be believed. And in cases like this, word for word repeats in multiple publications count as a single report.

 

This accident is interesting enough that there is a federal investigation that has been started. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. But that will take some time.

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3 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

We are on the same page, but...

 

Im not sure I agree with your analogy.   Switching from ICE to EV isnt as big a milestone.


In 120 years we've seen steam, electric, and gas powered vehicles. ICE certainly is the vast majority of them. Even fuel types have changes:  Gas, Diesel (popular in Europe), an CNG (popular in many 3rd world countries). But the car remains the car. I think we as car enthusiasts forget that the majority of car buyers don't know or care whats under the hood.  They focus on the utility value, the panache, and economics of owning a car.  The power plant and energy source is way down the list of importance.

 

EVs are quieter, pollute less, are more powerful, and cheater to "fill up".  People will buy them for these reasons.

 

 

Peter, I don't mean to be difficult but I would like to know where these stated attributes come from ?

1} Quieter     I agree , no question

2} Pollute less    I have yet to see a study that concretely proves this. The whole question is completely dependent on local power generation.

3} Are more powerful   Isn't that completely dependent on how much power the Manufacturer includes into the design ?  A golf cart derived EV vs a top model Tesla or similar high end EV. Vs a Hemi Charger.

4} Cheaper to fill up     I will also give you this one although even that is very dependent on where you get your charge.  Is it cheaper to drive 100 miles in a top model Tesla at 80 MPH using road side charging or is it cheaper to do the same with my diesel Smart Car ? I don't have the facts at hand but I suspect the cost saving may not amount to very much in a case like this.

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Did anyone come home from the Climate Summit with a recommendation to shut off some lights. Seems like Washington D. C. has some potential reductions.

DCnight.JPG.b13d6f611edecada0aced2eea8478cf5.JPG

 

Or the east coast.

Eastsataellite.jpg.600c6a9b98ba05360fb37b9fdcb90d90.jpg

 

Or Foreign counties.

-India-lights.jpg.76974d624fb40f7e6dab404a5e6b78ca.jpg

 

lights-at-night-2018.jpg.23f4fd8800591bf615fd0c5def685549.jpg

 

I often tell my wife that world leaders live a more blissful life than I.

Rare earth mining for solar panel materials.

Majority of firms fail at conflict minerals due diligence - MINING.COM

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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

Peter, I don't mean to be difficult but I would like to know where these stated attributes come from ?

1} Quieter     I agree , no question

2} Pollute less    I have yet to see a study that concretely proves this. The whole question is completely dependent on local power generation.

3} Are more powerful   Isn't that completely dependent on how much power the Manufacturer includes into the design ?  A golf cart derived EV vs a top model Tesla or similar high end EV. Vs a Hemi Charger.

4} Cheaper to fill up     I will also give you this one although even that is very dependent on where you get your charge.  Is it cheaper to drive 100 miles in a top model Tesla at 80 MPH using road side charging or is it cheaper to do the same with my diesel Smart Car ? I don't have the facts at hand but I suspect the cost saving may not amount to very much in a case like this.

 

2. POLUTION:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

"All vehicles produce substantial life cycle emissions, and calculating them is complex. However, EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. "

 

3. POWER:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/gas-powered-vs-electric-cars-which-is-faster.htm

" if you want to go from zero to 60 mph (zero to 96.5 kph) as fast as possible, an electric car is the way to go. However, gas-powered cars can still have faster top speeds. So what's the key difference between the two cars? Mostly, the transmission, or lack thereof."

 

4. FUEL COST:

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/electric-vs-gas-it-cheaper-drive-ev

"Over the anticipated 15-year life span of a vehicle, the electricity required to run a battery-powered electric car can be as much as $14,480 cheaper than fueling up an internal combustion vehicle."

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Don't suppose this has anything to do with it: "in 2019, Chinese chemical companies accounted for 80% of the world’s total output of raw materials for advanced batteries. " "China is by far the biggest EV market,"

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On 4/23/2021 at 1:23 PM, 1912Staver said:

 

 

Peter, I don't mean to be difficult but I would like to know where these stated attributes come from ?

1} Quieter     I agree , no question

2} Pollute less    I have yet to see a study that concretely proves this. The whole question is completely dependent on local power generation.

3} Are more powerful   Isn't that completely dependent on how much power the Manufacturer includes into the design ?  A golf cart derived EV vs a top model Tesla or similar high end EV. Vs a Hemi Charger.

4} Cheaper to fill up     I will also give you this one although even that is very dependent on where you get your charge.  Is it cheaper to drive 100 miles in a top model Tesla at 80 MPH using road side charging or is it cheaper to do the same with my diesel Smart Car ? I don't have the facts at hand but I suspect the cost saving may not amount to very much in a case like this.

 

As far as driving at 80 mph in a Smart Car vs any Tesla...  First of all, I'd never feel comfortable driving a Smart Car on a freeway at speed.  Second, it is hard to describe how effortless a Tesla drives at those speeds.  Hammer it, and there is immediate torque with zero latency.  You are flying past 100 mph almost instantly.

 

In the scenario I described a few posts upthread, commuting 80 miles/day with a total electric cost of around $4/day - that is about half what a Prius would use in gas and 4x less than the MB I replaced with my Model 3.  Generate ones own electricity with solar panels on the house and the cost goes down even more.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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16 minutes ago, padgett said:

Don't suppose this has anything to do with it: "in 2019, Chinese chemical companies accounted for 80% of the world’s total output of raw materials for advanced batteries. " "China is by far the biggest EV market,"

 

Your quote is accurate.  But what's your point?

 

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3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

3} Are more powerful   Isn't that completely dependent on how much power the Manufacturer includes into the design ?  A golf cart derived EV vs a top model Tesla or similar high end EV. Vs a Hemi Charger.

 

When it comes to the top models the EV wins in the quarter mile.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

2. POLUTION:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

"All vehicles produce substantial life cycle emissions, and calculating them is complex. However, EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. "

 

3. POWER:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/gas-powered-vs-electric-cars-which-is-faster.htm

" if you want to go from zero to 60 mph (zero to 96.5 kph) as fast as possible, an electric car is the way to go. However, gas-powered cars can still have faster top speeds. So what's the key difference between the two cars? Mostly, the transmission, or lack thereof."

 

4. FUEL COST:

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/electric-vs-gas-it-cheaper-drive-ev

"Over the anticipated 15-year life span of a vehicle, the electricity required to run a battery-powered electric car can be as much as $14,480 cheaper than fueling up an internal combustion vehicle."

 

 

 

Interesting material ! Thanks Peter.  Still, it appears to me that even the www.energy.gov reference does a lot of hedging and fails to definitively state EV's have fewer life cycle emissions than IC vehicles.  I get the feeling that they want you to come away with the impression the EV is superior from a life cycle emission point of view. But still very light on fact.  I expect the real truth is there is very little true emissions advantage to either. So much is dependent on the type of EV , where you drive it, how you drive it, how you recharge it. In some locations ; particularly those that have hydroelectric power generation , the EV probably makes sense.

In other locations ; areas served by coal burning thermal plants for example , the advantage may be very little indeed.

And any high performance EV that also has any sort of useful range is going to be a relatively heavy vehicle. All that power needs battery capacity, all that battery capacity adds weight . The energy requirement to accelerate that vehicle increases significantly as the mass { weight } goes up. And that energy has to come from somewhere. Light vehicles are usually quite efficient vehicles , heavy vehicles generally less efficient.

  So EV's are going to save the planet how ?

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Here's a calculation one could do:

 

About 95 million barrels per day of oil are produced. How much energy is that? Take BTUs and convert that to kw-hours. Could that energy production even be accomplished with solar panels? I doubt it, even if every home had them.

 

A good sized solar panel installation can produce 5,ooo watts (5kw). About 5 hours of full sun on a good summer day, that would give you 25kwh per day.

 

Point being, that 95 mbpd of oil represents a huge amount of energy.

 

 

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In 2019 I was in California in the Napa Valley during the rolling blackouts. Interestingly, it was the Duesenberg tour.......the hotel had ten Diesel generators outside running. Fortunately the "in crowd" has the income to solve the problem while everyone else sits in the dark. (And heat.) If California can't keep the power up just from AC overload.....imagine what it's gonna be like when they plug in 20 million cars.........🤔

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7 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Here's a calculation one could do:

 

About 95 million barrels per day of oil are produced. How much energy is that? Take BTUs and convert that to kw-hours. Could that energy production even be accomplished with solar panels? I doubt it, even if every home had them.

 

A good sized solar panel installation can produce 5,ooo watts (5kw). About 5 hours of full sun on a good summer day, that would give you 25kwh per day.

 

Point being, that 95 mbpd of oil represents a huge amount of energy.

 

 

 

Hmmm. My 3.6 kW solar array was put in service a little over a month ago. My peak day so far has been 26 kWh and the days are shorter now than they will be in the middle of summer. Granted I am at the mid-30s in latitude in a generally sunny area and will do better with solar energy than someone further north, but I think your estimate of output from roof top solar is a bit low.

 

An efficient spark ignition internal combustion engine peaks out at 40% efficiency in converting chemical energy to mechanical and that is at a vary narrow band of RPM and throttle positions. Overall efficiency for a typical car on the road is probably closer to 20%. So about 80% of oil used for transportation is wasted in current vehicles. Since a typical EV is around 90% efficient you don't need to replace all the BTUs in that oil, just a bit more than 20% of it.

 

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

In 2019 I was in California in the Napa Valley during the rolling blackouts. Interestingly, it was the Duesenberg tour.......the hotel had ten Diesel generators outside running. Fortunately the "in crowd" has the income to solve the problem while everyone else sits in the dark. (And heat.) If California can't keep the power up just from AC overload.....imagine what it's gonna be like when they plug in 20 million cars.........🤔

 

All the big utilities in the state have "time of use" billing that makes if very advantageous to charge an EV when air conditioners are off. In my case with San Diego Gas & Electric summer peak costs $0.60/kWh while "super off peak" which starts at midnight costs $0.09/kWh. Guess when I am likely to charge an EV? And there are a number of programs (which might become mandatory) where you can have your EV charger (or AC for that matter) automatically turned down or off based on demand side management by the utility.

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34 minutes ago, ply33 said:

 

All the big utilities in the state have "time of use" billing that makes if very advantageous to charge an EV when air conditioners are off. In my case with San Diego Gas & Electric summer peak costs $0.60/kWh while "super off peak" which starts at midnight costs $0.09/kWh. Guess when I am likely to charge an EV? And there are a number of programs (which might become mandatory) where you can have your EV charger (or AC for that matter) automatically turned down or off based on demand side management by the utility.

 

 

There won't be any time to charge your car....there isn't any capacity to handle five percent increase in demand, never mind trippeling it. I guess you can always take the high speed train!

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I haven't see any of the EV cheerleaders explain what happens to the relatively (at least in comparison to them) poor. Is the idea that if you can't afford a new EV you'll have to walk? I've owned exactly 1 new car in my life – it was junk and I dumped it in less than 6 months. For the past 40 years I've never had a car that wasn't at least 10 years old and my current everyday truck is an '89. How well are they going to wear? Will any of them be usable when they are 10 or 15 years old? You can't imagine how much I resent being taxed to provide a subsidy for movie stars to buy a Tesla that costs more than my last 10 cars put together.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

POLUTION:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

"All vehicles produce substantial life cycle emissions, and calculating them is complex. However, EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. "

If we change “pollution” to “environmental impact”, the EV benefit is further reduced by the negative impacts created by the manufacturing of the batteries, electronics and motors which require a lot of environmental resources which are in limited supply.

 

My point is EVs are no panacea. Just like bio ethanol fuels, there are a lot of trade offs when you look at the entire picture. 
 

EVs will have their place as will some fully autonomous vehicles and ICE vehicles. 

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Stude Light said:

EV benefit is further reduced by the negative impacts created by the manufacturing of the batteries, electronics and motors which require a lot of environmental resources which are in limited supply.

I'll go along with the batteries in that statement, but what resources are used in the electronics and motor that are not already used in vehicles today? 🤔  Motor is just copper wire wound on steel, common three phase induction motors.

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6 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I'll go along with the batteries in that statement, but what resources are used in the electronics and motor that are not already used in vehicles today? 🤔  Motor is just copper wire wound on steel, common three phase induction motors.

For the the higher efficiency motors it requires rare earth elements like neodymium which requires an intensive refinement process. The power electronics requires tin, tantalum, tungsten and gold- all require mining and processing.  
 

While we make motors and power electronics today, we have to ramp up production of these which will require significant increased needs of all these elements.

 

There is no free beer with switching to “environmentally friendly” EVs.

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Also calculate in the cost of upgrading every home, and apartment complex, as well as over the road charging stations. The amount of fossil fuels burned just for transportation is staggering.......and an existing delivery system would also need to be cleaned up.......pipe lines, gas stations, refineries........the list is endless. When I built my home 18 years ago, I put a 100 amp line into each bay of my three car garage. It was about three hundred dollars all in during new construction...........cost today to install an in existing house? 5k? 

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54 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Also calculate in the cost of upgrading every home, and apartment complex, as well as over the road charging stations. The amount of fossil fuels burned just for transportation is staggering.......and an existing delivery system would also need to be cleaned up.......pipe lines, gas stations, refineries........the list is endless. When I built my home 18 years ago, I put a 100 amp line into each bay of my three car garage. It was about three hundred dollars all in during new construction...........cost today to install an in existing house? 5k? 

 

No, if it were 5K to do a house I would come out of retirement tomorrow. It has been residential code for the past several year that provisions for charging stations are part of every new home. This transition has been going on for the past 20 years, LED lighting in commercial use is the first thing that comes to mind that has lowered electric demand 

  

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10 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I haven't see any of the EV cheerleaders explain what happens to the relatively (at least in comparison to them) poor. Is the idea that if you can't afford a new EV you'll have to walk? I've owned exactly 1 new car in my life – it was junk and I dumped it in less than 6 months. For the past 40 years I've never had a car that wasn't at least 10 years old and my current everyday truck is an '89. How well are they going to wear? Will any of them be usable when they are 10 or 15 years old? You can't imagine how much I resent being taxed to provide a subsidy for movie stars to buy a Tesla that costs more than my last 10 cars put together.

Tesla Model 3 has a base price of approximately $38k.  If that’s movie star pricing the pay for being a movie star has dropped significantly.  This morning the local TV news program highlighted a 2021 Jeep Gladiator w the new diesel motor option.  Price as tested was $65k.  Looks like movie stars will be driving Jeeps to keep up their status.  I guess it’s ok to buy a pickup for $65k and not be considered “one of them” for buying it.  Remember any tax incentives for an EV are available to anyone who buys one, that means even YOU can take advantage of the program.

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57 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

No, if it were 5K to do a house I would come out of retirement tomorrow. It has been residential code for the past several year that provisions for charging stations are part of every new home. This transition has been going on for the past 20 years, LED lighting in commercial use is the first thing that comes to mind that has lowered electric demand 

  


In Massachuetts, just the electrical permit is 400 dollars. To put three lines in a mid size home........in Mass, it would run to five K easy. That’s assuming you have a 400 amp service. Most houses still have 60 & 100 amp boxes. I am guessing many people would just live with a slow charger..........but what is code on that dedicated line? It’s also about location........many of the old housing stock in our area don’t even have electricity in their garage today......they use solar power for the door openers. Running power to a detached garage......expensive. It’s going to be interesting to see the charging station people try and install them in my town.I wrote the bylaw on them 15 years ago. They require a special permit in every location........as all car service does............the state was trying to push a charging lot in our town due to the turnpike exit.....the bylaw caused them to move on. The social, noise, hours, and issues associated with 24 hour public charging sites is extensive, and expensive to deal with at a municipal level. 

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Anyone notice that in the south for most of the year the bulk of the residential nighttime demand is for AC ? In the frozen North it is for heat.

 

One question: how to EVs compare to ICE for heat generation ?

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3 hours ago, edinmass said:


In Massachuetts, just the electrical permit is 400 dollars. To put three lines in a mid size home........in Mass, it would run to five K easy. That’s assuming you have a 400 amp service. Most houses still have 60 & 100 amp boxes. I am guessing many people would just live with a slow charger..........but what is code on that dedicated line? It’s also about location........many of the old housing stock in our area don’t even have electricity in their garage today......they use solar power for the door openers. Running power to a detached garage......expensive. It’s going to be interesting to see the charging station people try and install them in my town.I wrote the bylaw on them 15 years ago. They require a special permit in every location........as all car service does............the state was trying to push a charging lot in our town due to the turnpike exit.....the bylaw caused them to move on. The social, noise, hours, and issues associated with 24 hour public charging sites is extensive, and expensive to deal with at a municipal level. 

 

Ed I am a retired IBEW electrician and have worked in every position from wireman to general foreman in NYC, which probably one of the most expensive markets in the country, as well as competitive. I feel that I have a pretty good understanding about pricing and the industry as a whole then most people after 40 years of experience. Sure, there are situations where the cost could be expensive but for the most part they wont be.

Residential houses do not have 400 AMP services, that is commercial use only and utilities do not provide a 3 phase system in residential neighborhoods as a practice. Sometime in the the mid eighties all NEW residential homes had to have a Single phase 208V 3 wire 200AMP service installed according to the National Electric Code.  

There is discussion  now within the industry that the auto manufacturers' are aware that this is a question for some, and there is conversation that the charging location will be provided with the lease or purchase of a new EV. For me, that would real nice contract to get a part of. 

I don't understand the difference in having a 24 hour charging station then a 24 hour gas station. It is not public it is private the vehicle owner has to pay for the electricity they consume. 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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55 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I haven't see any of the EV cheerleaders explain what happens to the relatively (at least in comparison to them) poor. Is the idea that if you can't afford a new EV you'll have to walk? I've owned exactly 1 new car in my life – it was junk and I dumped it in less than 6 months. For the past 40 years I've never had a car that wasn't at least 10 years old and current everyday truck is an '89. How well are they going to wear? Will any of them be usable when they are 10 or 15 years old? You can't imagine how much I resent being taxed to provide a subsidy for movie stars to buy a Tesla that costs more than my last 10 cars put together.

 

Avoid used Leafs.  No thermal management of the battery pack, so they often suffer a lot of degradation.  Other manufacturers have done a much better job of babying their battery packs with active cooling and warming.

 

Large scale battery pack recycling will eventually be a problem that the industry will need to address.  Lithium isn't particularly valuable, but other metals like nickel and cobalt certainly are.  Been a huge push to reduce the amount of cobalt.  The Chinese LiFePO batteries don't have any cobalt, but also don't have as good a energy density as other popular chemistries.

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16 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

 

Interesting material ! Thanks Peter.  Still, it appears to me that even the www.energy.gov reference does a lot of hedging and fails to definitively state EV's have fewer life cycle emissions than IC vehicles.  I get the feeling that they want you to come away with the impression the EV is superior from a life cycle emission point of view. But still very light on fact.  I expect the real truth is there is very little true emissions advantage to either. So much is dependent on the type of EV , where you drive it, how you drive it, how you recharge it. In some locations ; particularly those that have hydroelectric power generation , the EV probably makes sense.

In other locations ; areas served by coal burning thermal plants for example , the advantage may be very little indeed.

And any high performance EV that also has any sort of useful range is going to be a relatively heavy vehicle. All that power needs battery capacity, all that battery capacity adds weight . The energy requirement to accelerate that vehicle increases significantly as the mass { weight } goes up. And that energy has to come from somewhere. Light vehicles are usually quite efficient vehicles , heavy vehicles generally less efficient.

  So EV's are going to save the planet how ?

 

You conclusions dont match energy.gov.  

 

Read it again: "All vehicles produce substantial life cycle emissions, and calculating them is complex. However, EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. "

 

Our opinions are of course not relevant.  The auto manufacturers are switching to EV. I'd like to think they are doing it altruistically, but ultimately, they are following customer demands, and addressing government regulations that are forcing them to reduce all cars carbon footprint.

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2 hours ago, padgett said:

Anyone notice that in the south for most of the year the bulk of the residential nighttime demand is for AC ? In the frozen North it is for heat.

 

One question: how to EVs compare to ICE for heat generation ?

 

Considering that 80% of the money you pay for gas gets blown out the tailpipe and radiator as heat, vs none in a EV, there is no comparison.

 

Like humans, battery pack works best when warm (room temp), so various strategies are used to keep them happy.  A lot of innovation going on right now between the manufacturers.  Combination of PTC heaters, coolant, heat pump, scavanging heat from motor(s) and inverter, even warming up the battery pack and using its thermal mass to keep the cabin warm, etc.  Tesla does a neat trick where they can intentionally run the motor(s) INefficiently so the resulting extra heat in the stators can be harvested - rather than using PTC heaters.

 

In the cabin, seat heaters and often, steering wheel heaters, are usually standard equipment - whereas they'd be considered luxury options on ICE cars.  The reason?  A cabin heater could draw 3-6 kW, whereas each seat and the steering wheel heater draw like 50W each.  So often you can get away with just using the seat heater.

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6 hours ago, TerryB said:

Tesla Model 3 has a base price of approximately $38k.  If that’s movie star pricing the pay for being a movie star has dropped significantly.  This morning the local TV news program highlighted a 2021 Jeep Gladiator w the new diesel motor option.  Price as tested was $65k.  Looks like movie stars will be driving Jeeps to keep up their status.  I guess it’s ok to buy a pickup for $65k and not be considered “one of them” for buying it.  Remember any tax incentives for an EV are available to anyone who buys one, that means even YOU can take advantage of the program.

 

Really...you apparently don't understand what I'm saying. There is NO CHANCE I could afford a new car of any kind...the "incentives" are worthless to me because I will never be in a position to use them. Is it ok to pay 65,000 for a pickup? I've no problem with anyone doing that but I never will...and quite frankly, even if I could afford something like that, a new car is about the last thing I'd want to spend money on. Ten year old vehicles are fine by me...the 65,000 is 20 times the most I've spent on any vehicle in the last 40 years - and more than 6 times what I spent on my brass car project.

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John, I defer to you on the national codes and only know what I have experienced. My home has a 800 amp service. In Massachusetts you can't get anything done for 2500 dollars. As far as gas vs charging............time is the difference. And long lines of people waiting. People hanging around for an hour or more with music blaring, ect.........charging is a different animal. By the way, 5k in my estimation was for running three lines into a garage for three chargers.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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38 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

Really...you apparently don't understand what I'm saying. There is NO CHANCE I could afford a new car of any kind...the "incentives" are worthless to me because I will never be in a position to use them. Is it ok to pay 65,000 for a pickup? I've no problem with anyone doing that but I never will...and quite frankly, even if I could afford something like that, a new car is about the last thing I'd want to spend money on. Ten year old vehicles are fine by me...the 65,000 is 20 times the most I've spent on any vehicle in the last 40 years - and more than 6 times what I spent on my brass car project.

 

 

Elon does not like Canadian's much. Or he thinks we are all really flush these days. 

Model 3 $51,900 - $76,600

Model S $113,600- $165,000

Model X $127,700 - $181,700

 

Canadian $ , before Govt. incentives.     

 

A $25.00 / Hour job in the US tends to also be a $25.00 an hour job in Canada. But almost everything costs more here.

Pre covid many Canadian households depended on cross border shopping trips for gas and groceries to help ends meet. 

The US border towns did a booming trade serving Canadians. These days many of those same border towns are in trouble due to the elimanation of Canadian customers.

 

But of course as posted previously you may save up to $13,000 on fuel over 15 years.

My Hyundai was less than $15,000 brand new. My wife almost bought another one about 3 years ago. On sale also about $14,000, but no dealer has a manual shift car in stock. She stuck with her Ranger and switched job locations to a site much closer. Same employer.

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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24 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

Really...you apparently don't understand what I'm saying. There is NO CHANCE I could afford a new car of any kind...the "incentives" are worthless to me because I will never be in a position to use them. Is it ok to pay 65,000 for a pickup? I've no problem with anyone doing that but I never will...and quite frankly, even if I could afford something like that, a new car is about the last thing I'd want to spend money on. Ten year old vehicles are fine by me...the 65,000 is 20 times the most I've spent on any vehicle in the last 40 years - and more than 6 times what I spent on my brass car project.

I do understand what you are saying.  Not everyone can or wants to buy a new car.  Your comment about subsidizing movie stars is misleading as the price of a Tesla is no longer only in the luxury car range. More people in the middle can afford them if that is what they want to buy.  Current rules for federal tax incentives for the big EV manufacturers are limited to the number of cars sold and Tesla is one of those who has reached its limit.  I sympathize with those who are squeezed as I am one of those too.  No $65k cars or trucks in my future either. My last vehicle was a used $20k Dodge Caravan with an additional $25k in wheelchair adaptation mods that I had to scrape together.  It’s going to be a contest to see who lasts longer, me or it.  Right now the van seems to have a slight lead, Auto Zone has replacement van parts but replacement body parts are harder to come by and cost a whole lot more if you find them.
 

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