jw24spec6 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 as a body shop owner i can understand how fast the cost of restorations ad up. i have noticed that the local "restoration shops" are very unorganized contractors. the shops dont plan out the restoration and waste money.they also sub out work to the low bid. we have one shop that charges 10000. and up to paint the car. he then calls shops like me and wants it painted for 2500. with no reguard for material quality and then ends up sending the car to a discount paint place and bad mouths the local painters. im only bringing this up because im tired of seeing good people laid away buy bad restoration shops. contract your own work, check your people out real well and know how much you want to spend. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 At $2,500.00 there can't be much repair work, just sand it down prime and paint. ANYBOBY can paint, it is the prep work that makes the job worth while. Way too many people just want a "driver" then go to a show and complain about a paint job that isn't top shelf. That is the sad part about the trade different degrees of finish, and middlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 i realize that prep is everything and expensive and quality is based on price. i just bought a gallon of white urethane and hardener it was 240.00 wholesale. my point was that restorers care more about your money than you car. i told the shop 7000.00 minimum and they dicided that i was way over priced. i just painted a car for my mom and the material was 1000.00 for the primer paint and clear. i know that a good restoration is very costly. im just tired of seeing people getting hosed paying a broker big money for driving the car around. another thing the shops seem to get the body work done poorly heavy filler, brass, wavey, just poor quality. im sure that thier are great shops out there but most i have seen run this way thanks for the conversation jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I'm facing that delema right now. I have a 65 mustang that is very straight. The local body shops want to lay a "fast build" primer on it-block it- reprime reblock and then spray it. If all the shops are telling me that the car is the straightest one they have seen in a long time...why the fast build primer? in my mind the more material you have over the metal the easier it is to chip the paint. am I wrong?? Meanwhile the car sits in my garage while I try to get up the nerve to paint it myself. However at $200 or more just for the color coat I don't want to make a big boo boo that would require me to start all over from the beginning <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 You have to start someday! If you mess it up, start all over, your own labor is FREE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkman Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I am a hobbyist. I do my own work. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, but I can tell you that a quality "show" finish can easily accumulate 1000 manhours for an overall paint job on a car. A production shop isn't accustomed to this level of effort for an overall repaint and probably couldn't stay in business for long charging their customers at that rate. I understand that. A restoration shop should take the time to explain to a discriminating customer why this level of effort is required for a show car finish. If the customer doesn't want that level or can't afford that level, then he would have to throttle the work. If the shop has to bill in the $60/hour range in order to stay in business, it makes sense that such a paint job is going to be very expensive, even before the expensive color coat paint is purchased. I think most antique car owners want a show car finish but have little appreciation for what it takes in labor to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 You guys are going to think iam nuts,took me 1 year from stripping off the old to water sanding and rubbing the clearcoat.I never did any body work before so it was an education.NEVER EVER did i think SO much BLOCKING was involved.From blocking the urethane hi build primer[5 times]to blocking the clearcoat 1200 to 1500 to 2000 then rubbing with 2 different compounds.BORING yes but when you look down the side and it is absolutely laser straight all that blocking is forgotten. diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 i agree with you, if its really staight why put extra mills of a surfacing primer. to much film build isnt good. spray a good activated primer sealer for hold out and paint it. first thing research your paint brand, read the literature from the manufacture they print it for a reason. it has gun setups reducer selection, all of the stuff that matters. it has the application directions, ask the paint supply for the info. if you dont have the experience dont play chemist. if it tells you to wait 15 minutes between coats at 70 degrees at a percent of humidity and its 45 and raining you need to know if it will work and how long to wait. good luck if you need info let me know <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 i agree good attitude jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 i agree that people do not have any idea how much work show perfect is or the price. i find most people want show perfect but have no idea the level of commitment to keep it that way. i really enjoy people doing thier own work and i see alot of good work they have done. i always tell people old cars are nothing but sanding, sanding off rust, blocking and priming, colorsanding. the prep is everything and if you take the time anyone can make a car nice. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I chuckle to myself every time I hear someone say "The average guy doing his own work can't compete with the professionally restored cars". Amateur restorers have one tremendous advantage, THEY DON'T HAVE TO COUNT THEIR HOURS! We, on the other hand, have to justify every hour we spend on a customer's vehicle, and we have to charge for our time or we'll go hungry. Sure, thru practice we've become faster and more efficient than the average guy, but still..a huge amount of time goes into rust repair, panel straightening, primering and blocking before a car is ready for paint and more blocking. I've learned over the years that the secret to a near perfect paint job is that THERE IS NO SECRET beyond patience and perseverence. Again, please be careful with the new paints and primers, I can't overemphasize how hazardous they can be to your health! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Dear Critterpainter,You say your car is straight,does that mean it does not have any dings or dents?When i used all that hi-build primer,99.9 percent of it landed on the floor,reminds me of finishing drywall.That WAVE you see on so many cars can be eliminated by sanding your ass off with ,a long stick or long rubber block,that means from the primer to the clearcoat or single stage what-ever you prefer.When sanding,coarse paper cuts the high spots while a finer grit will ride over them.As always just my 2-cents.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 A light contrasting color "guide coat" will make those high & low spots stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I guess I will have to be brave and get up the courage to start working on it again. And no there are virtually 0 door dings. The car was a "country car" as opposed to a "city car" and almost never saw the shopping mall style battlefields that trash the sides of most cars. It was "retired" in 82 when we started to get worried that someone might borrow it while my sister was using it for daily transportion for 3 months in the San Francisco bay area. It was collecting "do you want to sell it? notes almost daily ( 65 mustang GT coupe A code with A/C) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I have a world class bodyman who has told me, "you just don't know how good a friend I am Bo?" But I do know. It takes maybe two - three years for me to get a show job because he allows my car to lay in a bay he doesn't use much and he works on it little before the shop opens, or during slow times (hardly any) and on and on. Local guys say he is too slow and take their cars to a "fast guy" whose work to me looks "fast". I feel extremely lucky that I've got a true friend who is one of the best I've ever seen at his game. Otherwise, I simply couldn't afford to do a car anymore. And I can afford it because he works on it, when he feels like it, or when he has time. And, he loves old cars too.As for amateur restoration, I had another friend 20 years ago who painted only nitro lacquer. He was retired and worked in my garage when he felt like it. It also took him a long time too. But one of those cars that won a Grand National First in 1982 and was driven 10,000 miles afterward, stepped up to a Grand National Senior 18 years later after only a cleanup by a professional detail guy. So, it can be done, and done right you can drive'em too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I too have chosen to take on paint as an amature restorer. Will agree that it took a total of 800-1000 hours of work on my 57 T-bird ... but it was worth it. The basecoat-clearcoat paint system these days allows for a lot of error that can be easily fixed. But the amature must spend the time to make it perfect. Final rub out sends you through a nib file stage to get out the runs and the dirt/bugs since we shoot in an uncontrolled environment (like outside in the early morning before the breeze picks up)then through 3 grades of wetsanding, then through 3 grades of machine rubbing, then finish wax. Total cost of materials including acid etch primer, high build primer,primer sealer, base coat, clearcoat and catylists exceeded $2,000 - but a far cry from what could have been a $12,000 pro job. OK I saved 10 grand in 1000 hours. 10 bucks an hour .... not a bad part time job doing something for myself that I enjoy. Three tips - use a quality brand paint SYSTEM consistently through the process,pay attention to humidity and temerature and match your material to the environment and don't let the clearcoat sit too long before you rub out (turns it granite after a while).Hope that helps the next guy jumping into this brave new world as an amature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 "The local body shops want to lay a "fast build" primer on it-block it- reprime reblock and then spray it. If all the shops are telling me that the car is the straightest one they have seen in a long time...why the fast build primer? in my mind the more material you have over the metal the easier it is to chip the paint. am I wrong??"I will say that you are right about not wanting to build too much matieral thickness on your car but if it were mine, I would first remove all the old paint down to the bare metal and then give it a coat of epoxy. This will remove any hidden problems that might come up later that may be under the old paint like hidden body work, small rust spots like I found under the paint on my 68 Mustang that had not caused so much as a hint of a problem till I sanded the factory finish away from the spot. The epoxy will give it good adheasion and burn up some brain cells so you will spell as bad as I do! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You will then want to use some sort of primer like your "fast build" type but get a good quality and put it on with a good heavy coat. I would use a different color than the epoxy was so you will know when to stop sanding before you hit metal again. Before you wet sand this primer, I always mist a very fine coat of a third color primer over it just to sort of tint it on top so you can use a flat block and some 400 or 600 wet and sand off the last coat of light color down to the previous coat of primer. You will see spots where it will sand off easy and other spots where you will need to work on it more. If you start to see your epoxy showing before you get all of that mist coat sanded off, you need to shoot another coat of your "fast build" over that area and then mist it and sand it again until you don't see the epoxy showing up before you have all the mist coat gone. If you do this on every pannel of the car and get it all wet sanded so you think it is right, then you should give it one more thin coat of primer and mist it again over the whole car. When you wet sand it off this time, you will notice that if you have anything show up, it will not take as much to fix it. Most of this primer will sand off so you shouldn't have near as much on it as you would think. You can then seal it with a good sealer and paint it. I would remove all the tape and blow out all the corners and re-tape it before you seal it because of the little flakes of dust that will be left over from the wet sanding. I would also jack it up and remove the wheels and tape up the wheel wells and hang paper from the lip of the body under the rockers. This keeps dust down a lot! I always wet down the floor also but be carefull not to splash water up on the car when you are painting. Make a note of the temp, and humidity in the shop when you paint it because even if you use paint from the same can later, it will not match if you have a different temp or humidity later when you try to repaint a spot for some reason. Also I would paint the door jambs first and tape them off before you start on the outside of the car unless you plan to do them at the same time as the rest of the car. I like the base coat clear coat they have out now and if you have never painted, I would recomend it because a chimp could get a good job out of it. If you get anything in the color coat, just wait about an hour and do a lite sanding on the spot then re-spray it before you give the car the next coat. Don't expect a shine on the base coat because you will not get one and should not. I would then give it about 3 or 4 or even more coats of clear depending on how much orange peel you see in the paint because you will wet sand a lot of this clear off and buff it out later. Talk to the guys at the auto store where you get the paint, between them and what I see on this thread, you are in good hands. You will not use a gallon of base coat on that little Mustang but if you do the little parts and door jambs, you may want to buy a gallon to have some extra. You will have from 1 to 2 quarts left over when you are done. The best thing is when you are done, you will save some money, the job will be done right and you did it yourself. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You can't top the feeling you will get when you drive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Indiana_Truck Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Talk about brain cells! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I don't know how I did that one but I got logged in with an old user name somehow on that last post and thought I would never get my name fixed again <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I guess I should stop sniffing paint fumes and try to remember my password from now on. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Just thought of one more tip - most base coat - clear coat paint systems make a single stage urethane that will shine on the color coat and is compatible with the BC-CC. I used this on the door jambs, under hood & engine compartment and inside trunk. Saves a lot of time where you most likely will not be rubbing it out and is a perfect match. Also - you can hide minor chips later with this and an artists brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex98thdrill Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Jim, Several good points are being made and another one that you may want to consider is to find a good body and fender man and simply go talk to him. My father and I have become good friends with one of the area body shop owners and he has been a very valuable asset for us. He has answered several questions, taken the time to come up and see our progress, given us several pointers, and all of our paint and materials have come through his shop at his cost. I'm not saying that this will work in your area, but in my case, this guy is very busy and has enough work coming in, that he doesn't have the time to mess with what he refers to as "projects." In his case, he makes more money and can turn a greater profit with fixing wrecks and dealing with the insurance companies than he can spending all of his manhours, shop space, and people painting show cars. By getting our paint through him, it also moves more a little more paint through his shop and gives him (and us) a better deal on paint and supplies because of his large volume of paint that he buys. In the case of our '37 Plymouth, we couldn't get the original paint color for the truck, and the paint chip that we had was too small to get an exact match with. As things turned out, we pulled the door off, took it down to him, and he rubbed out the door, and then sent the door out where the color was scanned into a computer and an exact match was made using basecoat/clearcoat paint. Once the computer match was made, a printout of the paint formula was obtained, and the paint was mixed up as we needed it. Once the truck was painted, we took the '37 paint chart and took that sample of green and placed it under the fender, and if that paint isn't an exact match, then I'll say it's close enough to where not too many people would say or could prove different. In a nuttshell, I guess my best advice is, find a body and fender man, who is busy (the good ones usually are) talk to him, tell him what you want to do, ask him if he'd be willing to help you out, and BUY YOUR MATERIALS THROUGH HIM. The worst answer you'll get is "NO" and in our case, it's saved us money and saved him the hassle of having to do a show car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Wow..Thanks for all the great suggestions guys! The hints and tips I read are wonderful. there were a lot of answers to questions that I had running around in my mind. Of course with my lack of confidence in myself pehaps I should hire a chimp to spray the the color <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 jim owns a body shop just like you discribe, all the way down to the to busy for long term paint jobs thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_jmarsicano Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Question for all of you... I am a beginner painter and just painted my first car (base/clear). The paint is very brittle and chips easily. What did I do wrong? It was an expensive project and I dont want to make that mistake again.Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Dear Joe,You say it chips,being base-clear does the clear chip or does the clear and base chip all the way to the sealer?If it is just the clear i would say it was not mixed properly,too much hardener.if it is the base and clear i would say you have an adhesion problem.Did you use an epoxy sealer before the base?many questions,how about some answers.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Indiana_Truck Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Without knowing more about the paint and what you used to reduce it I would say it sounds like you may have not sanded the primer or old paint as much as you should have. If the car sat in primer for a few days before the paint was put on, it may not bond to the surface if you don't wet sand it first before you put the paint on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I agree with the above. Another factor, maybe too much paint. In other words, too many coats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Most likely the undercoat sat for awhile and was not sanded before applying paint. If the instructions say topcoat within 24 hours (or whatever) that's what you need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw24spec6 Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 Not knowing what brand of paint you used ill just guess. Alot of the chip resistance is handled by the sealer coat on the new paint systems. you need to read the manufactures data sheets as to how many mills of sealer they recommend. And im sure this will get the older guys going but dont ever use any laquer primers period they have no stability as far as chips go and are just terrible under the new paints. the other thing you might try is hardener in the base coat this cross links the base to the 2 part sealer and to the clear. When i refer to sealer i dont mean the primer you sand, i mean sealer its different. As far as over hardening the paint thats an old wives tale, there are only so many molocules to cross link once that happens the remaining cayalists just die and the paint really stays soft from the excess. good luck jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_jmarsicano Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 When the paint chips, it chips all the way down to the sealer (base and clear chip off). The sealer was an epoxy sealer. After reading as much information as I could get from the seller, I was sure that I mixed it correctly and applied timely. Being a first time painter I am sure you guys could probably pick out a few things I did wrong. The car is a old trevis sprint car and if it chips when I bump it in the shop, it is sure going to chip when I hit the track! Any help or suggestions would be great I want to learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Is the sprint car body fiberglass or aluminum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_jmarsicano Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 The body of the car is fiberglass and aluminum. I haven't painted the body yet. I decided to wait until I figure out what I did wrong on the chassis first. I am a young guy, new to the club, and dont have alot of cash. Remember "pay check by pay check" projects? Thats what this is, and I want it to be quality and correct. So I am willing to spend the time learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I didn't know til just now that you were talking about a chassis. Did you start with a sandplasted chassis or just sand what was there? Doing any chassis you need to set things up so you can spin it up and down and get all the areas covered. Painting a tube chassis like the sprinter takes a lot of time. The base coat clear coat may not have been the best choise for this part of the painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Indiana_Truck Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I don't know that I would have used this paint on the sprint car but it is a good place to learn. If you did use a sealer over the primer and then paint it the same day, did you wipe it down with anything before you put the paint on? If you did and did not get all the solvent off this will cause it to chip easy. I would not touch anything after you wipe it down and seal it and then paint it the same day. The paint may be soft for a few days after it is put on so handle with care. This stuff should hold onto epoxy real good so this one just don't sound right. Did you reduce the epoxy down with anything and how long did you wait before you put the base on it? Epoxy is kind of heavy and takes a while to dry and if it is cold where you are even if you have heat, it will dry even slower. If the info you have says wait 4 hours at 70/75, give it 6 or more this time of year. The paint has changed over the last few years and I have not used the new stuff much since I now only do my own stuff so Jim might be able to see what the problem is before me but this is about the best I can tell you without adding some old tricks that might cause more problems. I have used some laquor under the sealer and after 20 years on my Mustang, it is still holding up real good. I used epoxy first, then laquor, then wet sand and seal with thined down epoxy and put acrylic enamel on top. This was in 1983 and the paint is faded from the sun a little but still in good shape. I just don't like the orange peel you get with enamel. I am with Jim on this though, don't use the laquor because most people have bad luck with it and there are better things out there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 ok. WHAT KIND of bad luck with the lacquer????? i assume u r talking about the acylic and NOT the nitro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Great question Packard V8! I think the problem is mixing two different paint systems. The old school lacquer jobs worked fine over the last 75+ years, the new two part systems are a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 What do you mean by "chips easily"? Do you mean the paint is flaking off for no apparent reason, or is it more that it chips when you tighten bolts or what? All paints will chip but the modern epoxies are far superior to anything availabe before. You mean someone still uses lacquer? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Old school, lacquer primer and acrylic emanel have worked fine for me. Haven't saved up enough money yet to buy the two part primers. What is the pot life on leftover two part primer left in the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Always heard that if you were ever going to use lacquer it should be with an enamel under-coat,better adhesion not supposed to chip as much.diz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Back when I was doing it full time I used DuPonte Prepar-A-Cote primer. Worked great on aluminum or steel bodies. Stuck real well on wood wheels as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I don't understand why anyone would use epoxie sealers. I painted my Skylark 3 years ago with urethane base/clear. I used urethane primer, then sprayed the base coat and then the clear. I haven't had any problems what-so-ever with the way I applied the three paints. The primer I used was TransStar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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