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1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

Hypothetically of course, the poor Cimarron owner has skrimped and saved to enjoy ownership of an 'antique car'. He found a low mileage original example that his hard earned money he had been saving for the last few years now can buy. 

Unless they have a minimum wage job, one certainly doesn't have to skrimp & save 'for years' to buy a turnkey Cimarron that doesn't require any immediate work, body or mechanical.    They are not in demand, there is definitely NO waiting list for them.

 

Craig  

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1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

I would bet that the 'poor 20yo cimarron owner' would be just as proud or even prouder of the car he arrived in as the person that brought the v16 caddy! Hypothetically of course, the poor Cimarron owner has skrimped and saved to enjoy ownership of an 'antique car'. He found a low mileage original example that his hard earned money he had been saving for the last few years now can buy. The 16 cyl Caddy owner on the other has just another blue chip investment to show off until hes bored enough with it to sell and get something different. I have been to shows and seen an AMC Pacer garner more attention than cars 10 times the value.  Just because it is expensive doesnt mean it has to be loved, and just because it was a more pedestrian car doesnt mean it has to be hated.

You wouldn't believe how much attention my Rambler gets at local shows. People come up and tell me some relative of theirs had one back in the 60s and the last time they saw one was in 1973, and so on. A lot of the time they're surprised to even see one in person again! Plenty of people say they hated these when they were new but the design has grown on them because of how unique it is, probably similar to the Pacer. It'll never win any drag races or design awards, but it's 'weird' enough that people really like it. There's plenty of other cars like that out there too, just plain daily transportation from years ago is cool now.

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I remember 1991 when our 1966 VW became eligible for the AACA Founders & Divisional Tours.   Until that time, I had participated in only Pre WWII tours.  (6 Great American Races in a 34 Ford V8 and 35 Chrysler Airflow)

I started paying attention to those newer car tours, waiting for one close enough to our Florida home.  In the mean time the VW made a perfect "Toad" for our 1977 GMC motor home.

Then in 1994 the Founders Tour (For all AACA cars 1932 -1969) thanks to the 25 year old rule, we were eligible in

either in the VW or Pre WWII cars.   The tour was in NE Georgia and we signed up with the 66 VW.   We invited a German niece and her husband to join us.   Our newest collector car at the time was welcomed and other tourists had plenty of VW stories to share.  The car performed well and has been on an additional 10 AACA Tours since then.   The most recent tour for the VW was the 2017 Founders Tour in Gettysburg.  We invited another Early Ford V8 couple to go too and they brought a 1984 Subaru Brat in great HPOF condition, which was also welcomed by all.  

I think we're all old car guys and enjoy seeing them all.  We have the freedom to pick an choose age brackets for tours and when we rarely attend shows, we're parked by class with others of similar vintage and can wander the 

grounds to see everything else.   I still like to see a nice 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood, because I like all old cars.  I've learned that I can like and admire cars without having to own them all.

 

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My '92 TranSport is eligible, had the same taillights and wiper, and was a two door.

 

ts.jpg

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On 4/7/2021 at 9:06 AM, 8E45E said:

 

 

I am still trying to get my head wrapped around Billy's comment about people insulting cars Post WW2. 

 

Craig 

I agree with Craig, the "people insulting cars Post WW2' Huh? Haven't seen it in person. Before this Covid session when there were weekly cruise nights , my son and I used to go regularly - I only own pre WWII collector cars ( read have enough space to house them) . I never saw anyone who attended in a pre war car circle around so that they could eventually park next to another pre war car, not a post war car. Everyone seemed to be happy to be there, the atmosphere was very low key and relaxed , everyone had something to drink - coffee or soda , and usually a donut or two. There will always be people who own assorted cars that won't have any interest in what someone else owns. Maybe a muscle car owner won't want to park next to a full size station wagon owner or someone with a car with running boards. Or a person that owns a sedan with side mounted spare  tires not want to park next to a sports car with flared fenders and wide track tires.  To make a blanket statement about  "people insulting cars  Post WW2" seems a bit strong , but everyone has an opinion - at least here where I live that doesn't happen often enough to make me take notice . The question I get asked most often by post W2 car owners is  " you actually drive this thing at night ???!!!".

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3 hours ago, Walt G said:

I agree with Craig, the "people insulting cars Post WW2' Huh? Haven't seen it in person. Before this Covid session when there were weekly cruise nights , my son and I used to go regularly - I only own pre WWII collector cars ( read have enough space to house them) . I never saw anyone who attended in a pre war car circle around so that they could eventually park next to another pre war car, not a post war car. Everyone seemed to be happy to be there, the atmosphere was very low key and relaxed , everyone had something to drink - coffee or soda , and usually a donut or two. There will always be people who own assorted cars that won't have any interest in what someone else owns. Maybe a muscle car owner won't want to park next to a full size station wagon owner or someone with a car with running boards. Or a person that owns a sedan with side mounted spare  tires not want to park next to a sports car with flared fenders and wide track tires.  To make a blanket statement about  "people insulting cars  Post WW2" seems a bit strong , but everyone has an opinion - at least here where I live that doesn't happen often enough to make me take notice . The question I get asked most often by post W2 car owners is  " you actually drive this thing at night ???!!!".

 

Walt

It does not happen that much anymore, but It was common 30 years ago to hear those comments on Long Island, most, if not all of those guys are now long gone

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8E45E's last comment on the first page of this thread is a low level example. Alluded to but not spoken exactly, the point being that someone who loves and cares for an Allante is "less than" and unimportant compared to a V16 person. 

 

If I was that Allante owner and that was said to me...and you know it would be, but much ruder...do you think I would return to that club? 

 

There are far more egregious examples out there, and have been posted on this very forum in the past. 

 

And before anyone says it, yes, we all know the cars are totally different. That's not the point. The point is the continual insulting of anyone and everyone who loves cars from the 70s and later. 

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7 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said:

8E45E's last comment on the first page of this thread is a low level example. Alluded to but not spoken exactly, the point being that someone who loves and cares for an Allante is "less than" and unimportant compared to a V16 person. 

 

If I was that Allante owner and that was said to me...and you know it would be, but much ruder...do you think I would return to that club? 

Note I did NOT state Allante, which has their own group of dedicated owners; enough to make a statement at an exclusively Cadillac show.

 

I pointed out the Cimarron, which was panned by the press at the time, (and a few Cadillac dealers, I might add) when they were new, and are still mainly ostracized today.     Unlike the Allante which was hand-built by Pinninfarina, and remained strictly a Cadillac offering, the J-body was a mainstream GM platform that was shared with all five divisions and GM's European divisions, including Vauxhall and Opel. 

 

Other than curiosity value, they have little interest to Cadillac owners as there was hardly anything 'Cadillac' about them.  Extra trim and making a few options standard equipment does not turn a Chevrolet into a Cadillac.

 

Craig 

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Well sorta. I now have two '89 Allantes (think the best year, pm for why), under $10k for both, and finding a lot of commonality and parts with the E body Reatta. Personally think that if they had more commonality both would have lasted longer.

 

Electronics are not that complicated just personally think the Reatta touch screen would have been abetter choice than the center stack with allathem buttons & unobtanium (I have a spare set) displays.

 

Cimarron could have been an interesting car, wonder why they used the four door only and not the 2 door Cavalier Z-11 body (same J car) as a halo version.

 

Of course GM never listened to me (except to release the V8 Sunbird).

 

 

stack.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said:

The fact that I said the wrong car doesn't matter, the fact that you felt the need to insult the owner does. 

I am not insulting anyone.  I'm just stating facts and personal observation.

 

Craig

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On 4/6/2021 at 4:58 PM, edinmass said:

Unfortunately, I think many clubs will consolidate in the future. Nature of the beast. Demographics, on line chat rooms, Facebook clubs, Ext..............  no one is going to throw running and driving cars away.......but prices and events will surly be different in the future. Personally, I have been doing much more of the “email and Facebook” club events since the pandemic hit. Time will tell.......

 

I personally believe the two national Model-A Ford clubs (Model-A Ford Club of America & Model-A Restorers Club of America) both of which I belong to.  Should have combined many years ago.  But, we all know how personalities, politics and plain old snobbishness plays into this.....  Besides dropping HMN (talked about in another thread) I'll probably be dropping one of the national A clubs too.☹️

 

Capt. Harley😉

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Agree Captain.  I finally dropped MAFCA for no other reason than the two clubs are duplicative, and MARC was founded by a friend of my dad way back when.  I thought membership of the two clubs runs about the same, and has forever.  I think the A world has enough members to support two clubs and lets face it, some folks are making a living running clubs, that, club politics, etc. Will prevent a merger for a long time.  Or one club lets on modifieds, although I don't see that as iminent in our corner of the hobby, if it did occur that would differentiate them naturally.

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I belonged to the AMCA for a rather long time. Some time ago it became way too political, I didnt agree with the direction they were heading, cut my membership and have never looked back.  I didnt even realize that Motorcycles were recognized by the AACA until I was invited to display some of my bikes at the museum in Hershey. No regrets.  

 

A club cant make every one happy, or serve every ones needs, but dont try to run people off by being too one sided.

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On 4/7/2021 at 1:51 AM, Billy Kingsley said:

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again, but if you want younger people to get involved, stop insulting cars post WWII. 

 

Billy, you are right.  People have favorites, but they

often don't realize that their words can hurt others'

feelings.

 

Here is an example from a past thread, on our own

AACA forum, from a respectable member:

 

"...as far as I'm concerned nothing from the 1980's or newer should qualify as anything but 'used cars.' "

 

But we'll have to forgive people with such opinions.

Many custom-bodied Classics languished as obsolete

and undesirable on the back lots of the 1930's.  To a

friendly 101-year-old man I know, a 90-year-old might

seem like one of the "little kids" from his old neighborhood.

But I'll be happy to enjoy cars from the unwanted decades,

reveling in their affordability.  Here's my 1984 Buick Electra:

 

1984 Buick Electra Park Ave--mine 2020 (6).JPG

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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On 4/7/2021 at 10:02 AM, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

One of our local members, who is a Past President

of the AACA, says when he first joined around 1972,

his 1940 Pontiac was disparaged by someone as just

a used car.  It almost turned him away, but he persevered.

 

Almost all members are supportive, so never let a few

opinions sully your show!  We all have our favorites.  But

for someone to like only pre-1942 cars--criticizing anything

less than 70 years old--is absurd.  When the AACA was

founded in 1935, would such people disparage ANY old car

and like only horses born before 1865?!

 

 

In 1979 I attempted to join the Pierce Arrow Society. An "old jerk" at the table pushed me away and blew me off. It was 6 years later before I attempted to join again. He was still there a decade later. I spoke to the club officers, and they finally dumped him. I bet he turned off five hundred people over the years. I went on to become a prolfic owner and manufacturer of Pierce cars and parts.  Instead of being a 42 year member, I'm a 36 year member. Your "front man" need to be a people person, not an old miseriable grease monkey. Later on he mellowed, and I became friends with him, though I never brought up the subject. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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38 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

In 1979 I attempted to join the Pierce Arrow Society. An "old jerk" at the table pushed me away and blew me off. It was 6 years later before I attempted to join again. He was still there a decade later. I spoke to the club officers, and they finally dumped him. I bet he turned off five hundred people over the years. I went on to become a prolfic owner and manufacturer of Pierce cars and parts.  Instead of being a 42 year member, I'm a 36 year member. Your "front man" need to be a people person, not an old miseriable grease monkey. Later on he mellowed, and I became friends with him, though I never brought up the subject. 


 

 

I do think all clubs can be a little hard to join.  I was told once to give someone three chances to show you who they really are.  I think that goes for clubs as well.  
 

 

I once had someone with a collection that you could put against any one in the world complain that cutting off the year of a car allowed to enter the show was a mistake.  He said that people always “collect down.”  Ie they start with one year and get interested in the older cars.  

 

His point was to be inclusive as you never know who the next person who feeds the hobby and the clubs will be. 
 

 

Edited by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)
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On 4/7/2021 at 7:16 PM, padgett said:

I always liked what the Cimarron could have been.

 

I was a GM service rep when that car came out.  Interesting and decently appointed car, not bad for the size and market position. But because of fuel economy mandates it was tuned for maximum fuel economy and not performance.  It was a gutless wonder.  If it would have had a high performance V6 in it, the car would have had a much better reception in the marketplace.  IMO

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Ed, well stated, thanks for sharing that with all of us. But the "we know more or we know better" crowd and mentality will always be there . The ego and attitude will many times prevail even if you are a member of long standing! This happened to me with a club that I belonged to for over 45 years, regularly  contributed to for over 30 years, and because I happened to suddenly have a session of poor health was asked to resign my elected position because I was not allowed by the surgeon to attend board meetings - I was told that my 30+ years of steady contributions "were a different role" several times .  So I just left, good riddance. My Doctor's gave me strict instructions " do not under any circumstances get stressed" I am listening to them if I want to remain vertical. I have adapted and become a bit more ( but only a little) active in a club I joined in 1965 by submitting some old pictures of used cars to their forums , and here I am. And most of you are putting up with me too! WOW.

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If someone is a jerk I move on whether they drive a Model A, Model J or an 82 Chevy Caprice.  If someone is a nice guy, with interest in the hobby, we are generally going to be pals on some level.  Same with clubs, some have been great and others not so much. 

The driving factor for me from a club perspective is usually info related in terms of national, people related on local or region level.  

Our very best local club experience was with a group called Western MA Triumph Assoc.  Great folks, couples oriented, perfect combination of wrenching/car guy stuff and touring.  So much so we went a state over vs. The CT region where we felt totally unwelcome by a small group who thought their TRs were Ferraris, I guess... So we found an alternative and never looked back.

Bottom line, don't let others impact your enjoyment of the hobby.

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Steve, your last two lines are well stated, exactly my thoughts as well. I will repeat what I said before on here " life is short" , devote your time to what and who makes you happy . I have been at the end of the road, fortunately someone was there to get me restarted again. Every day and every happy time and moment is a gift.

Walt

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The best experience I had with an actual people antique car club was with the first one I joined.  The "Central Florida Antique Car Club" in Orlando, FL, in 1967.  I had attended a couple of meetings of the local AACA chapter.  But a 16 year old kid with a plain-jane '29 Chevy was not their "cup of tea" so to speak.  I did not feel I was

accepted.  An officer* of a local club found me one night at a drive-in burger joint.  Talked to me about old cars, complimented me on mine and invited me to attend one of the Central Florida Antique Car Club meetings.  In the three years I was a member of the club, I met my best friend (who is still my best friend to this day), was a club officer at 17 years old, helped set up and run car shows, judged, etc.  I've never enjoyed a car club and the people in it as much as I did with the Central Florida Antique car Club nor do I think I will ever again.  It was just a local club with no national affiliation with a bunch of like minded guys who loved antique cars.

 

Capt. Harley😉

 

The club officer was Steve Cooley (now deceased) who was a great guy and the best car restorer/rebuilder I ever met!  His son (Steve Cooley Jr or Stevie as I like to call him) still carries on with Steve Cooley Motors in Homosassa, FL.  And is just as good as his dad!

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4 hours ago, Cadillac Fan said:

I do think all clubs can be a little hard to join.  I was told once to give someone three chances to show you who they really are.  I think that goes for clubs as well.  

After an incident in our local Studebaker Drivers Club chapter, I now believe in a 'screening process' for new members.  We had a club display at the local World of Wheels and accepted memberships from anyone. This individual who joined did not own a car, and as we found out later, is borderline autistic, and wanted to be popular amongst us and at the same time 'use' us one way or another to his advantage.  Before Covid, we held regular monthly meetings at a local cultural club with a fine dining area, where we were able to hold our meetings there free of charge as long as we patronize them for the evening which we did, and will once again when restrictions are lifted.  This person who we refunded his membership dues never ordered anything, except water, and would show up hours early to 'arrange the tables' before the meeting, and he did create a few embarrassing situations for us.   Last I heard, he has moved on to joining the local AMC club here, and reportedly doing the same in their chapter.  

 

Craig

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On 4/6/2021 at 12:50 PM, Peter Gariepy said:

 

 

Some of these numbers are based upon what I've heard of found on their websites or social media pages, others based on direct knowledge. (I think they are pretty accurate)

  • Early Ford V8 - 9,000
  • Model A Restorers - 15,000
  • Cadillac & LaSalle - 6,500
  • Buick Club - 6,500
  • Antique Automobile Club of America - 30,000
  • Vintage Chevrolet Club - 6,800
  • Pierce-Arrow Society - 850
  • Classic Car Club of America - 6,000
  • Pontiac Club (POCI) - 6,000
  • Oldsmobile Club - 6,000

Why do you think this is?

Pontiac Club (POCI) today - 6,000 --  when in 1985-95 the roster was about 10K. I can tell you why many members left.

image.jpeg.afb7d4663b05d52ca451e43e460e3fc3.jpeg

This is one of the answers,  and this car has nothing to do with the mission statement of the club, and yet it was on the front cover of the club magazine!

 

Edited by Pfeil (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

After an incident in our local Studebaker Drivers Club chapter, I now believe in a 'screening process' for new members.  We had a club display at the local World of Wheels and accepted memberships from anyone. This individual who joined did not own a car, and as we found out later, is borderline autistic, and wanted to be popular amongst us and at the same time 'use' us one way or another to his advantage.  Before Covid, we held regular monthly meetings at a local cultural club with a fine dining area, where we were able to hold our meetings there free of charge as long as we patronize them for the evening which we did, and will once again when restrictions are lifted.  This person who we refunded his membership dues never ordered anything, except water, and would show up hours early to 'arrange the tables' before the meeting, and he did create a few embarrassing situations for us.   Last I heard, he has moved on to joining the local AMC club here, and reportedly doing the same in their chapter.  

 

Craig

We had a member in our Kiwanis about the same way. We welcomed her with open arms when we found out she was rejected from another club in our division. She rarely ate dinner with us, when she did it was constant complaints about the food, which wasnt 5 star but was certainly better than McD's. Complained about everything, had our club in turmoil within a couple of months. We put up with her until she finally quit coming to meetings. Only after she was in our club did we find out that she had been kicked out of 2 others.  I guess those type of people exist everywhere.  And we did have a vetting process.

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Certain people will always seem great until they aren't. Will often claim to be positive then have nothing but negative comments.

 

POCI feelings about GTOs are why the GTOAA exists.

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On 4/6/2021 at 2:50 PM, Peter Gariepy said:

 

 

Some of these numbers are based upon what I've heard of found on their websites or social media pages, others based on direct knowledge. (I think they are pretty accurate)

  • Early Ford V8 - 9,000
  • Model A Restorers - 15,000
  • Cadillac & LaSalle - 6,500
  • Buick Club - 6,500
  • Antique Automobile Club of America - 30,000
  • Vintage Chevrolet Club - 6,800
  • Pierce-Arrow Society - 850
  • Classic Car Club of America - 6,000
  • Pontiac Club (POCI) - 6,000
  • Oldsmobile Club - 6,000

Add Plymouth Owners Club at about 3500 according to their Website.

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16 hours ago, padgett said:

Certain people will always seem great until they aren't. Will often claim to be positive then have nothing but negative comments.

 

POCI feelings about GTOs are why the GTOAA exists.

Really? Of course I dont own a GTO, but my perception is that outside of Trans Am specific forums, that the T/A is the bastard step child of the Pontiac world!  Doesnt seem to be a lot of love other than other trans am owners. 

I am also a POCI member.

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POCI used to be known as the "Silver Streak Crowd". Of course before the I'net became popular (mostly in this century), clubs were my main source of like people, cars, and parts. BBSs were mainly figuring out how to make computers work. Networks were corporate internal (SPRINT - Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications). Not the place to discuss IPv4 exhaustion.

 

Have seen the world go from 66WPM to 300 baud to 200 Mbps. At my house. Nothing is the same. One of my first popular computer programs was a PC that sensed a ringing phone, checked the ANI (automatic number identification, predecessor to caller ID) against a list of subscribers, and just let it ring if not recognized. Had to pay extra for ANI then. (4K screaming TV requires 25 Mbps. Minimum. 1080p can get by on 5 Mbps, (buffering, buffering...)

 

So at least for me, all clubs I belong to have a web presence and have little resemblance to what went before. Instant gratification is required.

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I also think that both Model A National Club's should combine into one organization. I think that it's basically a west coast vs an east coast thing. I have been a member on and off since the early '70s and this topic comes up every few years, but nothing ever comes of it. I do however, think that it's only a matter of time before it will need to happen. As the age of those members involved in Model A's continues to climb and chapters closing because of membership declining, it will be a matter of survival.

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7 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Really? Of course I dont own a GTO, but my perception is that outside of Trans Am specific forums, that the T/A is the bastard step child of the Pontiac world!  Doesnt seem to be a lot of love other than other trans am owners. 

I am also a POCI member.

So are Canadian Pontiacs according to some, who claim they aren't "real" Pontiacs built on a Chevrolet chassis.  Of course by the late-to-mid seventies, with GM's efforts at 'brand dilution' with engine swaps with other divisions across the board, all GM cars became 'corporate' by their body style letters.

 

Craig

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Heck later automagic Trans/Ams had Oldmobile engines (403) only manual transmissions had the Pontiac engine. Can tell by the decal on the hood scoop. Personally am quite catholic in my tastes even like a 74 GTO with the camper option.

 

ps thought the F-bodies could accept almost any corporate engine., had a 68 Firebird with an OHC-6.

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On 4/9/2021 at 11:50 PM, plymouthcranbrook said:

Add Plymouth Owners Club at about 3500 according to their Website.

i was a member until i tried to join the local chapter with my 74 cuda. they wanted nothing to do with me  or my "new car" which was over 40 years old.

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On 4/9/2021 at 7:51 AM, Larry Schramm said:

 

I was a GM service rep when that car came out.  Interesting and decently appointed car, not bad for the size and market position. But because of fuel economy mandates it was tuned for maximum fuel economy and not performance.  It was a gutless wonder.  If it would have had a high performance V6 in it, the car would have had a much better reception in the marketplace.  IMO

I believe toward the end of the production run, a little more emphasis was given to performance and handling with the d'Oro package in 1986.  It was too late to make an impact and stop the sales decline.

 

Craig

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The "get it right and cancel" was a theme.  It comes from not spending the time before launch to get it right in the first place, so by the time things are fixed, the model's reputation is trashed.  I think Fiero is absolutely the poster child for this.

 

GM also typically thought the customer should want a bigger vehicle.  if you wanted a smaller car for reasons of performance and handling, GM offered you an econobox to drive until you realized you should want a DeVille.  This really hindered their competing with the Japanese and Europeans, and with developing good 4 cylinder engines.

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Actually the 73 Vega GT was a very good car in SCCA Showroom Stock Sedan class.  SCCA then had a "2 years and out" rule. I bought a '74 that could beat everything except the '73 cars (particularly the Opel 1900 - 200 lbs lighter). Then for '75 the SCCA dropped the two year rule and I dropped the SCCA.

 

ob AACA SCCA - Sports Car Club of America

Edited by padgett (see edit history)
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On 4/7/2021 at 9:23 PM, 8E45E said:

This is the 'newest' Cadillac I wouldn't mind owning with an element of collectability.

 

Craig

10cias0016.jpg

I really like these..., BUT the 3.6 engines have a habit of having the timing chain components grenading and taking out the rest of the engine with them.

I did have a 2013 CTS4 coupe that I really liked until.

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