1922 Paige Model 6-66 $22,000

[John Bloom]

https://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/d/franklin-1922-paige-model-66-lakewood/7287037051.html

 

I know very little about Paige automobiles.  I think they are a Detroit make....An interesting open Classic.  Any Experience with them from the Forum members?

 

  

[Grimy]

Hi John,

 

I have the same car in a 4/5-passenger phaeton called "Larchmont II" (vs. this 7-passenger "Lakewood").  Photos of mine attached.  131" wheelbase, Continental 8A engine (L-head six), 3.75 x 5.  2-wheel brakes.  Mine was $2245 new, 7-p probably $100 more, but the limo was $3350.  Good cars but with short gears as normal for the period (about 4.55 to 4.75), so expect a 35-38 mph cruising speed stock.  I have a Mitchell 26% overdrive on the shelf which seems to be an easy installation, and which vastly improved the manners of my 1925 Pierce 80 sedan with 4.88s to a 48 mph cruise.  I don't want to go fast as much as to avoid pushing the engine to high revs.

 

This one:  It's good that it was an AACA winner 55 yrs ago, but the standards were VERY different then.  From the photos, it looks like the rear seats and jump seats are done in the hides of the endangered Nauga species, which are found only in the DuPont forest.  Correct headlights except they've chromed the whole things--look at mine.

 

I'd say you'd have to go thru the fuel system (Rayfield Model G carb, vacuum tank), and of course drop the pan and ensure the water pump and valves aren't frozen.

 

Major vulnerability is the fiber timing gear for camshaft (no chain, 4 gears mesh) which was made of silk and resin.  Mine was replaced by previous owner with an aluminum gear, a tad noisy on startup is a welcome tell.  Second stock vulnerability is that the water pump holds its shaft (30" long) captive.  To remove water pump--unless it's been modified like mine NOW has-- you must remove hood, headlights, radiator and shell, fan, pulley, timing cover, then one timing gear, distributor, external oil pump, and generator--only THEN do you pull hoses and 3 nuts.  I now have a new short shaft with a coupler so the next poor fish doesn't have to go thru what I did.  Need photos of both sides of the engine to see if this has been done already.

 

AND I call this overpriced for a non-runner, but probably $15-17k might be ok.

 

Feel free to PM me if you're interested in the car.  I have some literature and the owner's manual which has a lot on mechanical adjustments, and I'd be happy to tell you some other things to look for.

 

These photos of my car make it look better than it is.  I've had it 20 years.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Grimy
correct typos (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

Grimy, 

 

Your Larchmont II is a handsome car.  Color is such a visual impact and that black looks very nice on your Paige.  I also like the proportions of yours better.  I'll have to take your word that your photos are more flattering than in person, but your car needs no apologies!  very nice.  

It is probably good that this car is 700 miles from me, or I might go look at it.  I have just undertaken a project and don't want to get distracted at this point.  If the timing was different, i'd go look and see exactly what this car has to offer.  

The complexities of the water pump and shaft are good to know.  I worry about these type of issues, and I don't have the experience that others have taking on "surprises like this".  Your comments about speed and gearing are about what I would expect from this era.  It looks like it would be a lot of fun in the country roads of Indiana at 35 mph.....  I need to turn my eyes away from this project.

 

Growing up, we didn't know there was any world outside of the Dupont Forest.  By my early 20's, I could skin a Nauga in the field, and get every last square inch of premium hide.  One day we went to the edge of the forest and saw a pasture.  there were some large Bovine looking things grazing about.  Can't imagine any use for those beasts.....

 

There is some complex diagram I'm sure that relates Free Time, Finances, Your Age and the reality of taking on cars needing work.  I probably need to just watch this one from a distance, but it looks interesting.  I'll be keeping an eye out for Paige related content.  This car and yours has opened my eyes to them. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grimy]

John, I bought mine in SF 20 years ago from a friend because I didn't want it to go to a street rod owner, and grew to love it.  Paige was an assembled car (I no longer consider that automatically a slur), but their components are very high quality.  The Larchmont bodies, at very least, were made by Wilson of Detroit, which also did some series-custom coupes for Pierce-Arrow (and other makers) a few years later.

 

I should mention that the condition of the vee-ed radiator with herringbone fins is exceptionally important, as it would cost as much as the car to re-make.

 

This car was refurbished (I wouldn't say "restored) in Iowa in the early 1970s, and a friend found two photo prints of it in the same condition with 1973 dates at the Bakersfield HCCA swap meet in 2018.

 

I know all too well the diagram you mention (Venn Diagram with overlapping and tangent circles?) and have been its victim a few times.

[HarryLime]

Grimy , Thank you for the info and pictures of your beautiful auto . Having owned a Paige , I am a great fan .

[John Bloom]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:08 AM, Grimy said:

John, I bought mine in SF 20 years ago from a friend because I didn't want it to go to a street rod owner, and grew to love it.  Paige was an assembled car (I no longer consider that automatically a slur), but their components are very high quality.  The Larchmont bodies, at very least, were made by Wilson of Detroit, which also did some series-custom coupes for Pierce-Arrow (and other makers) a few years later.

 

I should mention that the condition of the vee-ed radiator with herringbone fins is exceptionally important, as it would cost as much as the car to re-make.

 

This car was refurbished (I wouldn't say "restored) in Iowa in the early 1970s, and a friend found two photo prints of it in the same condition with 1973 dates at the Bakersfield HCCA swap meet in 2018.

 

I know all too well the diagram you mention (Venn Diagram with overlapping and tangent circles?) and have been its victim a few times.

 

On 3/23/2021 at 11:25 AM, HarryLime said:

Grimy , Thank you for the info and pictures of your beautiful auto . Having owned a Paige , I am a great fan .

Harry and Grimy, what would you say the "competition" was for Paige in the early 20's?  Fairly large wheelbase and Displacement......Custom bodies ....?

 

Would they have been comparable to a Big Six Studebaker?  More high end than that?

[Grimy]

33 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

Would they have been comparable to a Big Six Studebaker?  More high end than that?

Big Six Studebaker would probably be a strong competitor.  The Paige Big Six (this one) was 331 cid (3.75 x 5) for 70 hp with 131" wb vs. Stude's 354 cid for 75 hp (at the end of the run) and 127" wb.  I don't know the open and closed prices for Studebaker, but the 1922 6-66 Paige prices were (from Bill Roberts's website):

• Touring, 7-Passenger, Lakewood, $2,195
• Sport Type, Larchmont II, $2,245
• Roadster, 3-Passenger, Daytona, $2,495
• Coupé, 5-Passenger, $3,100
• Sedan, 7-Passenger, $3,155
• Limousine, 7-Passenger, $3,350

(At the time, closed car prices were much higher than open car prices.  I've read somewhere that in 1919, 90% of cars sold in the U.S. were open and by 1929 only 10% were open.)

 

I'd have to spend some quality time with the Standard Catalog to give you more possibilities, but the more I think about it, the more I agree with you.

[58L-Y8]

v8For context, the 1922 Studebaker Big Six EK Models 126" wb were 7 passenger touring $1,985; 7 passenger sedan $2,950.   By four years later Model EP the 7passenger Duplex Phaeton $1,795; 7 passenger sedan $2,245.  Wheelbases were 120" & 127" with a wider selection of body styles, priced from $1,795 to $2,325.

 

The Packard Single Six 126, 268.4 ci, 126" wb, five passenger touring $2,485, sedan $2,750; the Model 133, 133" wb 7 passenger touring $2,685, sedan $3,525.  Those prices would moderate by the 1925-'26 326 and 333 models, particularly the sedans which reached parity with open cars causing the sales to burgeon.

 

Added this later when I had time to research the other competitors.

1922 Roamer 6-54E, 303 ci, 128" wb 5 passenger touring $2,485; 7 passenger touring $2,750.

1922 Jordan Model F, 303 ci, 127" wb, 7 passenger touring $2,475

1922 Cole Aeroeight V8, 346 ci, 127" wb, 7 passenger touring $2,485

Edited March 25, 2021 by 58L-Y8
more competitor context (see edit history)

[BINKYBOY]

Sir Grimy -  With respect, you seem to be quite knowledgeable about Paige automobiles and I appreciate your fine explanations of the problems a new Paige owner might encounter.  I have one available for my consideration to purchase, so I would appreciate your help with a couple questions. (It is not the car about which this thread was started, although it appears that car is still for sale:  https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1922/paige/model_6_66/101582018)  

 

First, with regard to "the fiber timing gear for camshaft (no chain, 4 gears mesh) which was made of silk and resin," how would I determine whether this issue had been resolved on a vehicle on which I have no history ? Would such a timing gear have managed to remain viable and working, lo, all these years if the car has been driven more or less regularly ?

 

Second, with regard to the "water pump hold[ing] its shaft (30" long) captive," again is it possible the water pump has survived this long without failure, providing some previous owner the opportunity to disassemble the front end so as to replace it, if the car has been driven more or less regularly? I realize that, even if the water pump on my prospective Paige has failed, it doesn't mean the shaft was reassembled with a courtesy coupler to make life easier for the next mechanic. However, you indicate that photos of both sides of the engine would allow you, or me, to determine whether such a short shaft coupler may exist on the car I am considering. Would you be able to help me with that determination?  If so, would you please be more specific about what the photos need to highlight?

 

Are both of the above listed issues also relevant to the smaller Paige engine used in 1922, or are they just problems on the 66 series engine?

 

Third, you mention in a later post that "...the condition of the vee-ed radiator with herringbone fins is exceptionally important, as it would cost as much as the car to re-make."  Are you referring to any leakage in the top and bottom tanks, the overall integrity of the radiator, the condition of the fins, or all of the previous?  As I have not yet been up close and personal with the vehicle I am considering, does the 1922 Paige 6-44 have a similar V-d radiator with herringbone fins that is as valuable as the rest of the car, if out of sorts?

 

Fourth, and final, you mention that you have a Mitchell overdrive unit you intend to install on your Paige in order to reduce the engine revs.  I know there is a way to calculate the engine revs at 40 mph on this vehicle; but so as to save me the math calculation, how fast is your engine revving when you feel it is doing the best it can at 40 mph or so?  Do Paige automobiles have a torque tube, or are they open drive?  Would it not be more productive to change the rear axle gears, perhaps along with installing the overdrive unit?  (Sorry - I cheated. That's three questions in one...but they are all related.)

 

Thank you for any and all help you care to extend me. Paige vehicles are nice looking cars in an era when most of them looked very similar. I am always intrigued with the rare makes although they usually come with a certain amount of risk.  I hope I can snag the one I have found if I can determine how many, or few, problems may exist with it. But I will have to convince the current owner that, with cars such as Paige, rarity does not necessarily qualify for high price; and, in fact, may be a deterrent.

Cheers,

Bob

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, BINKYBOY said:

Sir Grimy -  With respect, you seem to be quite knowledgeable about Paige automobiles and I appreciate your fine explanations of the problems a new Paige owner might encounter.  I have one available for my consideration to purchase, so I would appreciate your help with a couple questions. (It is not the car about which this thread was started, although it appears that car is still for sale:  https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1922/paige/model_6_66/101582018)  

 

First, with regard to "the fiber timing gear for camshaft (no chain, 4 gears mesh) which was made of silk and resin," how would I determine whether this issue had been resolved on a vehicle on which I have no history ? Would such a timing gear have managed to remain viable and working, lo, all these years if the car has been driven more or less regularly ?

 

Second, with regard to the "water pump hold[ing] its shaft (30" long) captive," again is it possible the water pump has survived this long without failure, providing some previous owner the opportunity to disassemble the front end so as to replace it, if the car has been driven more or less regularly? I realize that, even if the water pump on my prospective Paige has failed, it doesn't mean the shaft was reassembled with a courtesy coupler to make life easier for the next mechanic. However, you indicate that photos of both sides of the engine would allow you, or me, to determine whether such a short shaft coupler may exist on the car I am considering. Would you be able to help me with that determination?  If so, would you please be more specific about what the photos need to highlight?

 

Are both of the above listed issues also relevant to the smaller Paige engine used in 1922, or are they just problems on the 66 series engine?

 

Third, you mention in a later post that "...the condition of the vee-ed radiator with herringbone fins is exceptionally important, as it would cost as much as the car to re-make."  Are you referring to any leakage in the top and bottom tanks, the overall integrity of the radiator, the condition of the fins, or all of the previous?  As I have not yet been up close and personal with the vehicle I am considering, does the 1922 Paige 6-44 have a similar V-d radiator with herringbone fins that is as valuable as the rest of the car, if out of sorts?

 

Fourth, and final, you mention that you have a Mitchell overdrive unit you intend to install on your Paige in order to reduce the engine revs.  I know there is a way to calculate the engine revs at 40 mph on this vehicle; but so as to save me the math calculation, how fast is your engine revving when you feel it is doing the best it can at 40 mph or so?  Do Paige automobiles have a torque tube, or are they open drive?  Would it not be more productive to change the rear axle gears, perhaps along with installing the overdrive unit?  (Sorry - I cheated. That's three questions in one...but they are all related.)

 

Thank you for any and all help you care to extend me. Paige vehicles are nice looking cars in an era when most of them looked very similar. I am always intrigued with the rare makes although they usually come with a certain amount of risk.  I hope I can snag the one I have found if I can determine how many, or few, problems may exist with it. But I will have to convince the current owner that, with cars such as Paige, rarity does not necessarily qualify for high price; and, in fact, may be a deterrent.

Cheers,

Bob

@BINKYBOYBob, you have tasked me with a lot of homework!  🙂  Let me know if the following answers your questions sufficiently:

 

1.  As I alluded, a rattle on startup until oil pressure gets to the aluminum gear *indicates* replacement (same thing on my 1918 Pierce).  But if your proposed car is from NH or those environs 10 yrs ago, that's where my extra aluminum gear went.  Attached is a photo (DSCN1932) of an aluminum replacement gear side by side with a stripped resin+silk original gear.  You might check with Then & Now Automotive in Weymouth MA to see if they might have a replacement fiber gear--they have a huge warehouse of obsolete parts and have been good to me in the past.  Who knows how long a 100-yr-old silk+resin gear should last?  I do know that on other makes, the quickest way to strip a fiber timing gear is by trying to starter-crank a long-unused engine whose valves or water pump may be stuck.  I have an excellent HCCA gearmaker nearby in Alameda, CA.

 

2.  Water pump and its captive long shaft:  Photo DSCN0266 shows the original installation.  We ain't got a lot or room, and trust me, you don't want to try repacking this side of the pump (the other's side's packing is easy).  If the original pump shaft is not scored by POs cranking down too hard on the gland nuts, you're fine.  The issue is that the gear inside the cast aluminum crankcase extension (my terminology) drives the distributor (top) and external oil pump (bottom)--see DSCN0267.  My (now deceased) machinist's solution was to make a new shaft for the water pump (which has permanent seals) which fits into a recess in the cut-back original shaft and is secured by a tapered pin--see DSCN0978.  Another person's (Pennsylvania) solution was an external coupler--see photo "RBP water pump shaft"

 

3.  Tanks are easy:  it's the herringbone-finned V-shaped core.  My car was a chronic overheater, and it spent many years in Iowa where there's a lot of lime in the water.  I spent a lot of time doing Better Living Through Chemistry using multiple cleaning solutions (but not Evaporust--next on the agenda) and especially stocking filters in the top tank (I'm a strong advocate for these) with minimal improvement.  The immediate PO was a great advocate for cutting oil as an anti-rust.  I am NOT, due to its insulating properties which diminish heat transfer.  I had the radiator boiled out (tanks NOT removed) and it seemed to come back 5 lbs lighter.  I also replaced the two approx 1" core plugs and flushed the hell out of the cooling passages in the block.  Got stuck on multiple family crises and haven't tested it out yet--have to install a new wiring harness before replacing the cylinder head after a valve job done "as long as it's opened up."

 

4.  Paiges are open drive line.  Just put the original driveshaft in a corner and have two short driveshafts made up.  The Mitchell in my 1925 P-A 80 with 4.88 gears made it a completely different car, much for the better.

 

I'll PM you with my personal email and phone number because it looks like you may not have enough time on the forum to initiate.

[edinmass]

 

I have seen George’s Paige several times over the last twenty years. I’m known as a car snob, and his car appeals to me a lot. It’s well made and has nice lines. Not much from 1920-1927 is of any Intrest to me and I would probably buy one if I had the opportunity. I would include it on a short list of “assembled cars” that would be fun to own. 

[BINKYBOY]

Sir Edinmass - I don't know when you last updated your resume, but if is current as of today, 50 years of visiting Hershey since you were age five, would make you (hold for calculator....), um, fifty-five years old. Is that close to true, or off by, say, ~10 years, round numbers? I inquire merely because my Dad took me to the show at Hershey in, probably 1962 or 63, but I don't remember my age in 1962 or 63, so there you go. Anyway, for a long time I had a couple photos I had taken of the entire show from a high point where I could include all of the Model T & Model A Fords on the infield of some ballpark.  That was pretty much the show. Unfortunately, my little photos long gone.  In 1964, we moved to NW Ohio and possibly to assuage his guilt for making me move with family, he took me to Auburn, IN., for the ACD show.  More little photos as we walked around the square in the center of downtown Auburn, looking over the entire show, in 1964, of Auburns, Cords and Duesenbergs on display.  OK, I don't get to tell that story very much to anybody who might actually be interested, so moving along with that off my chest.....

 

You seem to indicate an interest in a Paige if the appropriately snobbish version became available 😁 so did you see the October 17, 2017 in Automobiles and Parts - Buy/Sell AACA posting offering a 1922 Paige 6-66 7 passenger sedan for sale by AACA forum member "rallyrat"?  The ask price is currently $45K. Does that vehicle interest you?  If you have read the forum entries from that date, what do you think about the asking price...or what do you think the asking price should be?  That is NOT the Paige I am considering for purchase as it is way out of my comfortable price range, so I am merely asking your opinion so as to get some idea what an esteemed car collector and mechanic such as yourself thinks is a "fair" price...whatever that means...for that CCCA car.  The one I am thinking about is just a humble little sedan from 1922, but I think the family of the deceased owner associate rarity with high price. So I'm trying to get some sense of the market, as thin as it may be.  Thank you for any comment you would care to share.  Cheers.  Bob

 

p.s.- are you still a "Full time used car mechanic. Pre War only" ?  In case I end up looking for such a fellow.

[BINKYBOY]

Sir Grimy - I am humbled and speechless with your prompt and detailed response to my questions and the included photos. Being three time zones away, I was sound asleep while you were crawling around on your car taking pictures, then pecking away on your keyboard to answer my (too many) questions. (Even my adult daughter tells me I ask too many questions.) But I get enthused about something and off I go without, necessarily, consideration for the poor fellow from whom I am requesting some answers. I greatly, greatly appreciate your giving the time you invested in your "homework," when you probably should have just told me to call back later.  I did receive your pm by the way, but I wanted to publicly express my appreciation for your help and guidance, and bear the cross of my own sins.

 

What is this world...much less this hobby... going to do when gentlemen such as you are working on antique cars in the Great Beyond?  I'm not sure I belong, or deserve to be, in the company of such fine gents.  I might be able to do an adequate job of shining your shoes, Sir Grimy, if you would care to send them to me.  That is about all I feel worthy of right now.  Nevertheless, I will study your responses and photos and try to pull myself back together about this Paige.  Cheers,  Bob

[BINKYBOY]

What do any of you fellas who happen to read this section think of Peerless automobiles?  I know they are supposed to be right up there in quality with Packard and Pierce Arrow, although fewer surviving.  I am not in the market for a Peerless, but there has been a fella trying to sell one on Facebook for over a year, near Cleveland, OH.  It is a 1929 model 6-61 rumble seat coupe with a 11E Continental engine that he has owned for 25 years.  So it is on a 116" w/b with a seven main bearing engine.  The gent is currently asking $16,000 and is willing to listen to any offer.  His family has grown and left, so he no longer has an interest in the car.  Here is the link to the listing if anybody wants to follow up:   https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/127260489483755     Bob

[John Bloom]

I think it is a car that is fairly priced. I have seen this listing for a while, which may explain his interest in finally moving it and dropping the price. I have never owned a Peerless, but I do know their reputation was very strong. I think by 1929, they no longer were comparable to Packard or Pierce Arrow. They had dropped into a more modest price range and the cars reflect that. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a great car.  However even a Packard 626 or the Pierce 80/81 series cars were much larger and grander than this Peerless model. 
 

not a criticism.  I think it’s a very handsome car at that price.

 

 

[Grimy]

5 hours ago, BINKYBOY said:

What do any of you fellas who happen to read this section think of Peerless automobiles?  I know they are supposed to be right up there in quality with Packard and Pierce Arrow, although fewer surviving.  I am not in the market for a Peerless, but there has been a fella trying to sell one on Facebook for over a year, near Cleveland, OH.  It is a 1929 model 6-61 rumble seat coupe with a 11E Continental engine that he has owned for 25 years.  So it is on a 116" w/b with a seven main bearing engine.  The gent is currently asking $16,000 and is willing to listen to any offer.  His family has grown and left, so he no longer has an interest in the car.  Here is the link to the listing if anybody wants to follow up:   https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/127260489483755     Bob

Our member @jeff_ais the resident expert on Peerless.

[jeff_a]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:38 AM, BINKYBOY said:

What do any of you fellas who happen to read this section think of Peerless automobiles?  I know they are supposed to be right up there in quality with Packard and Pierce Arrow, although fewer surviving.  I am not in the market for a Peerless, but there has been a fella trying to sell one on Facebook for over a year, near Cleveland, OH.  It is a 1929 model 6-61 rumble seat coupe with a 11E Continental engine that he has owned for 25 years.  So it is on a 116" w/b with a seven main bearing engine.  The gent is currently asking $16,000 and is willing to listen to any offer.  His family has grown and left, so he no longer has an interest in the car.  Here is the link to the listing if anybody wants to follow up:   https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/127260489483755     Bob

I know a little about Peerless, mostly things I've read, locations of surviving cars, and 15 cars and a bicycle I've seen. In 1929, the cars, The Product of America's Oldest Fine Car Builder...as President James Bohannon used to say...were available in four different models, each with a different engine. All Peerlesses, no subterfuge of several makes made by the same company. There was a 6-61 [$1,195-$1,395], a 6-81 [$1,540-$1,595], a 6-91 [$1,895-$1,995], and an 8-125 [going from $2,195 to $2,395]. 

 

The 6-61 was a runaway best seller, the product of lengthy testing and development. It and the 6-81 had so many sales they delayed the arrival of the all-straight-eight models for 1930 by a couple of months. 8,000 orders for the 6-61 were taken the first day of the NY Auto Show. Peerless had $300,000,000 in sales, but over 32 years of selling cars their average annual production was only 3,300. The 6-91 had a Peerless-built six of 289 cubic inches, made since 1924. The 8-125 was a powerful and luxurious straight-8 car. The first two and last models had Continental engines, not surprising since Michigan interests had been trying to take over Peerless since 1922.

 

Here's a piccie of the Six-61 which is for sale, on the road somewhere in Ohio_ _ _ 

 

.........followed by a Six-81 at a show in South Africa _ _ _

...

 

...followed by a Six-91 in Massachusetts_ _ _ 

 

...followed by an Eight-125 when shown at Amelia Island or Boca Raton Concours d'Elegance _ _ _

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by jeff_a (see edit history)