wheelwright Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 This interesting V4, with double magneto and 1 spark plug for each cilinder, the other two spark plugs may be closing water ports. Size roughly 600 x 600 x 600 mm. The alloy valvegear covers give a modernish look to the concept. Early twenties? We wouldn't be surprised if it's a boat engine but that's only gut feeling. I gladly leave this all to you experts out there. Maybe European made. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobinVirginia Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 I’ve got no clue but it’s certainly going to be interesting to learn about it! I’m sure someone here will know. Cool engine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustycrusty Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Those antique engine fellas over at Smokstak would probably know... https://www.smokstak.com/forum/forums/unidentified-engines.98/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomobile Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Looks industrial, possibly early Wisconsin or Continental. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Looks like flywheel is set up for multiplate clutch. Hard to see intake manifold but is it set up for two carburetors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Saab, Lancia and European Fords are the only carmakers I know for sure used a V4. This looks prewar. Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) Lancia introduced a narrow angle v4 in 1922. Had one cylinder head and a single overhead camshaft. Saab used German Ford v4 engines. I think the subject engine may predate Lancia. Edited March 7, 2021 by dictator27 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Looks industrial to me. I agree Smokestack is the place to determine it’s origin. Maybe a boat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 I recall a Ford V4 in a boat, much later than the engine in question. 1960s would be my best recall estimate. I seem to remember it being a push rod engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Have you been into it far enough to determine if it's 2-cycle or 4? Looks water-cooled with an external pump drive which may mean marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 It’s a four stroke.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 'Duel magnetos' - do they compete with each other? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Have you had one of those alloy covers off? Wondering if it has atmospheric (suction type) inlet valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 30 minutes ago, edinmass said: It’s a four stroke.......... 31 minutes ago, edinmass said: It’s a four stroke.......... Yes. It is an ioe (inlet over exhaust) engine. Two magnetos each firing four spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said: Have you had one of those alloy covers off? Wondering if it has atmospheric (suction type) inlet valves. Push rods for the inlet valves can be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, dictator27 said: Push rods for the inlet valves can be seen. So I guess it must have three camshafts? One in the middle for the inlets and one each side for the exhausts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Both the inlet pushrods and exhaust valve stems are on the outside of the V so one camshaft on each side. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Layden B Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Check the fasteners ( nuts and bolts) and other dimensions (not the spark plugs) to see what standard they are made to. Generally: British Whitworth American Imperial European Metric Crankcase mounting and smaller diameter flywheel are typical marine. Magneto location and drive is commonly European. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, Layden B said: Check the fasteners ( nuts and bolts) and other dimensions (not the spark plugs) to see what standard they are made to. Generally: British Whitworth American Imperial European Metric Crankcase mounting and smaller diameter flywheel are typical marine. Magneto location and drive is commonly European. Could also be USS...........mid America rust belt. And they made a bunch of marine stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, dictator27 said: Yes. It is an ioe (inlet over exhaust) engine. Two magnetos each firing four spark plugs. Commonly called an 'F' head. One set of valves low alongside the cylinder, and one set of valves over the cylinder. The inlet isn't exactly over the exhaust, it is moved to the other side of the cylinder by the rocker arms that actuate the inlet valves. 'F' head engines were fairly common on cars and other uses in the 1910s and 1920s. It was a medium grade improvement over 'T' head and 'L' head engines, less costly than 'T' head and 'ohv' engines, with better breathing than 'L' head engines and better compression than a 'T' head engine. Reo in the mid 1910s and early 1920s and many Essex cars of the 1920s were famous for their 'F' head engines! I haven't ever seen many 'V' anything 'F' head engines (except for a few V-twin motorcycles?), so quite unusual. It certainly is intriguing! Whatever it was used for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Layden B Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Am wondering if this isn't a smaller engine of a line of sizes made by adding more identical cylinders? Perhaps 1, 2, 4, 8, 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Thinking along the Marine engine line of thought: In the marine engine world there were only a handful of manufactures building V style engines which really didn't start appearing until the late 1920's and early 30's and then, with the exception of Scripps, Packard and a few high end makes were mostly automobile conversions. With that said it appears to be similar to the "Barber Twin" marine engine marketed by the King Bros. of Syracuse, New York. You can see the mounting and position of the magneto is the same as well as some other details. Barber started in 1914 and eventually developed a comprehensive line of 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 cylinder two strokes. Around 1926 King Brothers took over the operation and introduced the four stroke V style. In a limited search I did not find any evidence that they ever produced a V4 but that doesn't mean they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akstraw Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Marmon started out with a V4 in the 1900s, but I think all were air-cooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Another thing to consider, although it most likely will lead nowhere? Is that those valve covers, which obviously fit that block perfectly and belong there, look an awful lot like the valve covers for a 1920s variation of the Rajo model A four valve head manufactured to boost he power of a model T Ford engine (earlier Rajo model A heads had no covers over the rocker arms). The Rajo model A head converted the model T engine into an 'F' head engine, and boosted the power considerably, but not as much as the later 'B' and 'C' series eight valve heads did. There is a remote possibility (actually somewhat unlikely?) that there could be a commonality in manufacturer there. A lot of foundries and machine shops did work for numerous manufacturers. If you could find someone that has a Rajo model A head with the covers, comparing the covers could tell something? Or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 It sure looks like 1914-1918 technology. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said: Another thing to consider, although it most likely will lead nowhere? Is that those valve covers, which obviously fit that block perfectly and belong there, look an awful lot like the valve covers for a 1920s variation of the Rajo model A four valve head manufactured to boost he power of a model T Ford engine (earlier Rajo model A heads had no covers over the rocker arms). The Rajo model A head converted the model T engine into an 'F' head engine, and boosted the power considerably, but not as much as the later 'B' and 'C' series eight valve heads did. There is a remote possibility (actually somewhat unlikely?) that there could be a commonality in manufacturer there. A lot of foundries and machine shops did work for numerous manufacturers. If you could find someone that has a Rajo model A head with the covers, comparing the covers could tell something? Or not? Also a very similar set up on the OHV conversion kits made by Elva sports cars for early post war, English Ford side valves. Greg Edited March 8, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 From looking at the photos the location is Europe - clues in the odd words of labels etc in the background. 7 hours ago, Layden B said: Check the fasteners ( nuts and bolts) and other dimensions (not the spark plugs) to see what standard they are made to. Generally: British Whitworth American Imperial European Metric Crankcase mounting and smaller diameter flywheel are typical marine. Magneto location and drive is commonly European. I had a 1915 Fiat 2B project many years ago and the threads on the engine were Whitworth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 9 hours ago, nzcarnerd said: 'Duel magnetos' - do they compete with each other? dual magnetos, not duel like two men firing pistols at each other, lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Gillingham Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 There was the exact same type of V4 engine posted on prewarcar.com a few years ago. I don't know if it was identified or not. https://www.prewarcar.com/unknown-4-cyl-engine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Craig Gillingham said: There was the exact same type of V4 engine posted on prewarcar.com a few years ago. I don't know if it was identified or not. https://www.prewarcar.com/unknown-4-cyl-engine Looks to be the exact same one. Obviously not yet identified. I wonder if there might some clues inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Dual mags suggests airplane engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LI_BENTLEY Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Dual mags were used on some high performance cars and some racing engines, not just aircraft engines. My Bentley flies down the road but doesn't fly in the air, it is equipped with two mags that fire both plugs at the same time. Looks like this two cylinder engine uses two mags to overcome the V configuration problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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