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Front Disc conversion with scarebird brackets


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I am wanting to do a front disc brake conversion on my 64 . Based off the various posts, I purchased the scarebird brackets. After reading the instructions,  I started to run into troubles and many questions.

  1. When trying to order the parts from the suggested suppliers, using the related part numbers, many are not available. The most problematic is the Cadillac Deville calipers. When emailing Scarebird, they said use per application. I would assume any 1971-76 Cadillac Deville calipers would work. What did others use?
  2. I could not tell from the instructions if the brake caliper bracket is also used. If you don't, since the calipers are only single piston, would they no longer be a floating caliper design? Would braking be done on only the piston side?
  3. Assuming you don't use item 2 bracket, are they attached with a bolt or the caliper pin?

 

Also, because my brake booster does not hold pressure when motor is off (even though it was rebuilt), I plan on buying a new one when I convert to dual master. Any recommendations?

 

Carl

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When I first got ahold of one of some Scarebird brackets, they had a completely different set of “suggested” parts.  I’ll see if I can find them and post them.  If I remember correctly, the original suggestions were a lot more accessible.

 

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One thing I can tell you is NOT to use the Jamco set-up.  

Good luck.

One of our own on this forum has a kit, BUT he is in Australia.  I don't know what the shipping costs would be OR IF he has a U.S. supplier.

 

Tom T.

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Here's the original list that was first used when Scarebird came out with the bracket.  I went to a salvage yard and took everything from the booster to the rotors and calipers from a 75 Buick Riviera.  That was a number of years ago when there were still Rivieras in the yards.  You might be able to find one now if you look.  I liked the idea because it used everything that was designed by Buick engineers to work together as a system.  It's yet to be done, so I do not know if new pads are still available, but the car from which I took everything was a low mileage cars and there is still plenty of meat on those pads. (I guess that pads don't deteriorate over time.🤞) Contact CTC Auto Ranch in Denton TX to see what they can supply for you. I just looked at their website and they have a lot of boattails.

 1542129669_Scarebirddiskbrakeinstructions.thumb.JPG.3e9e9be1abeb49cc06628790b172ee77.JPG

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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Other than getting the right parts (i.e. rotors, calipers....), one of my big concerns is the use of a brake caliper cradle bracket. If it does not use it, I have a hard time understanding how this caliper will still be a floating caliper?

 

 

 

 

Carl

Brake caliper cradle.jpg

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, RivNut said:

 

Here's the original list that was first used when Scarebird came out with the bracket.  I went to a salvage yard and took everything from the booster to the rotors and calipers from a 75 Buick Riviera.  That was a number of years ago when there were still Rivieras in the yards.  You might be able to find one now if you look.  I liked the idea because it used everything that was designed by Buick engineers to work together as a system.  It's yet to be done, so I do not know if new pads are still available, but the car from which I took everything was a low mileage cars and there is still plenty of meat on those pads. (I guess that pads don't deteriorate over time.🤞) Contact CTC Auto Ranch in Denton TX to see what they can supply for you. I just looked at their website and they have a lot of boattails.

 1542129669_Scarebirddiskbrakeinstructions.thumb.JPG.3e9e9be1abeb49cc06628790b172ee77.JPG

 

Great !!

These part numbers are still available. Hopefully scarebird did not change there brackets and I could use them. I will email them tomorrow. Looking at the instructions, they did not mention the brake caliper cradle. How are these attached and are do they maintain the floating caliper design?

 

Just went to CTC Auto Ranch and they are closed to the public now

 

Thanks

Carl

Edited by Ckerch (see edit history)
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Check out this V8TV video from days gone by where they fit a Scarebird kit to a '62 Electra (same as a Riviera)  @Ckerch This should answer your question about the lack of a cradle bracket.  Except for the caliper bolt, ALL the parts on my list are available from Rock Auto.  No need to look for a donor car.  We're aware that you can add a '67 dual master cylinder for a drum drum setup to the '64 Booster, so there should be no reason that you cannot add a '67 disk/drum master cylinder to your '64 booster. Rock Auto has those also.

 

https://v8tvshow.com/V8TV_2/index.php/en/tech/chassis-suspension-brakes/635-low-buck-scarebird-disc-brake-conversion-on-a-1962-buick-electra

Edited by RivNut
added note about Rock Auto parts (see edit history)
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I'm correcting my previous post.  Rock Auto DOES have the caliper bolt.  Rock Auto calls it a caliper pin.  But the Raybestos part number for the pin is the same as the Raybestos part number for the bolt on the Scarbird list.

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Thanks Rivnut

I looked at that article and if the Rivera design is the same as the Buick Electra design in the article, that raises some red flags for me. I am not a brake expert but I would like to believe I have pretty good knowledge of brake operation. However, with thousands of these bracket sold, I can't believe with Scarebird would put out an unsafe product so I must be missing something so please poke holes in this post. Since brakes are so important, I need to be comfortable with any system I put in. 

 

Let me explain why I am having anxiety and what my concerns are. Per my understanding of brake system, there are basically two types of them.

  1. A dual piston system that has at least one piston on each of the caliper contact each pad. This allows the caliper to be directly attached to a bracket or the steering knuckle. The reason for dual piston design is each piston will apply equal force as brake pressure is applied to both sides of the rotor stopping to vehicle. There are some disadvantages  of this like rotor runout needs to be tighter but make a good high performance system. This is what I am use to on my older Corvettes.
  2. A floating caliper design. This is where a caliper cradle or mounting bracket in the case of the 71-76 Rivera is directly attached to the bracket or steering knuckle. The single piston caliper is then mounted in the cradle and is held in by the guide pins allowing for a floating caliper design. When braking is applied, the single piston will come in contact with one side of the caliper and as more pressure is applied to caliper, it will slide (or float) over allowing the pads to be apply even pad pressure on each side of the rotor and stopping the car. The caliper stopping force is against the caliper cradle (or bracket) that is firmly mounted to the steering knuckle and not on the guide pins. This is the design I am use to for passenger car where high performance is not needed and eliminate the need to control rotor runout.

Here are my concerns:

  1. If I understand this correctly, the caliper is directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket using the guide pins. With the caliper directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket, the stopping force of the car is on the guide pins only. The guide pins are not designed for this since they are used for guiding the caliper and not taking the stopping pressure of the car. As far as I know it, they are not a harden steel.
  2. Since these are a single piston caliper and directly fastened to the Scarebird bracket, this defeats the caliper from floating (or sliding). So when the brakes are applied, the piston will apply pad force on only only side of the rotor. If more brake force is applied either the rotor or the bracket would have to move. It would take a lot to bend a rotor and the Scarebird brackets are pretty beefy I am not sure what would give. Also, the caliper movement needed will only increase as the pads start wearing and pads wear will be uneven. This could also impact brake performance since only one pad is doing most of the work.

  Again, I am not bashing Scarebird or saying this system is unsafe, I just want to feel comfortable in the system so poke away.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

Thank You

Carl

 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Ckerch said:

I just want to feel comfortable in the system so poke away.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

I have a '64 Riviera and did a brake job with all original parts last year. At the time I didn't consider the option of upgrading the brakes on my 60 year old car with parts from a 50 year old car.

 

If my aluminum drums had been a concern I would have used the steel liner service and made no changes. That costs about $300 per drum, not bad when you think about re-engineering the original system.

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43 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

I have a '64 Riviera and did a brake job with all original parts last year. At the time I didn't consider the option of upgrading the brakes on my 60 year old car with parts from a 50 year old car.

 

If my aluminum drums had been a concern I would have used the steel liner service and made no changes. That costs about $300 per drum, not bad when you think about re-engineering the original system.

And that is way I may go. I rebuilt the system brakes last year and for some reason, but I can not get rid of some weeping around the rubber brake line that connects to the wheel cylinder. I am thinking it is related to the fine Chinese craftsmanship of the mating surface. I could replace them again however but since I was already changing out the brake lines and going with a dual reservoir master cylinder, I was taking another look at disc brakes.

 

Carl

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2 hours ago, Ckerch said:

Thanks Rivnut

I looked at that article and if the Rivera design is the same as the Buick Electra design in the article, that raises some red flags for me. I am not a brake expert but I would like to believe I have pretty good knowledge of brake operation. However, with thousands of these bracket sold, I can't believe with Scarebird would put out an unsafe product so I must be missing something so please poke holes in this post. Since brakes are so important, I need to be comfortable with any system I put in. 

 

Let me explain why I am having anxiety and what my concerns are. Per my understanding of brake system, there are basically two types of them.

  1. A dual piston system that has at least one piston on each of the caliper contact each pad. This allows the caliper to be directly attached to a bracket or the steering knuckle. The reason for dual piston design is each piston will apply equal force as brake pressure is applied to both sides of the rotor stopping to vehicle. There are some disadvantages  of this like rotor runout needs to be tighter but make a good high performance system. This is what I am use to on my older Corvettes.
  2. A floating caliper design. This is where a caliper cradle or mounting bracket in the case of the 71-76 Rivera is directly attached to the bracket or steering knuckle. The single piston caliper is then mounted in the cradle and is held in by the guide pins allowing for a floating caliper design. When braking is applied, the single piston will come in contact with one side of the caliper and as more pressure is applied to caliper, it will slide (or float) over allowing the pads to be apply even pad pressure on each side of the rotor and stopping the car. The caliper stopping force is against the caliper cradle (or bracket) that is firmly mounted to the steering knuckle and not on the guide pins. This is the design I am use to for passenger car where high performance is not needed and eliminate the need to control rotor runout.

Here are my concerns:

  1. If I understand this correctly, the caliper is directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket using the guide pins. With the caliper directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket, the stopping force of the car is on the guide pins only. The guide pins are not designed for this since they are used for guiding the caliper and not taking the stopping pressure of the car. As far as I know it, they are not a harden steel.
  2. Since these are a single piston caliper and directly fastened to the Scarebird bracket, this defeats the caliper from floating (or sliding). So when the brakes are applied, the piston will apply pad force on only only side of the rotor. If more brake force is applied either the rotor or the bracket would have to move. It would take a lot to bend a rotor and the Scarebird brackets are pretty beefy I am not sure what would give. Also, the caliper movement needed will only increase as the pads start wearing and pads wear will be uneven. This could also impact brake performance since only one pad is doing most of the work.

  Again, I am not bashing Scarebird or saying this system is unsafe, I just want to feel comfortable in the system so poke away.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

Thank You

Carl

 

 

 

 

Scarebird is only responsible for the bracket.  EVERYTHING else was designed by the engineers at Buick.  If you're stating that this system has a problem, then you're also stating that every Riviera built between 1971 and 1976 has the same problem. 

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22 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Scarebird is only responsible for the bracket.  EVERYTHING else was designed by the engineers at Buick.  If you're stating that this system has a problem, then you're also stating that every Riviera built between 1971 and 1976 has the same problem. 

 

The brake components might be designed by Buick but in GM's 1971-76 design it included a second component (mounting bracket) that the caliper sits into. From what I understand, the conversion kit does not use this part. This is apples and oranges comparison .  I my mind, the mounting bracket is a critical component. 

 

By buying the Scarebird bracket you are constrained by there system.

 

I wish I had a service manual for that year, I could show you that part.

 

I have email Scarebird to see if this mounting bracket/cradle is or can be used. Will be interesting what they say.

 

Carl

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13 minutes ago, Ckerch said:

 

The brake components might be designed by Buick but in GM's 1971-76 design it included a second component (mounting bracket) that the caliper sits into. From what I understand, the conversion kit does not use this part. This is apples and oranges comparison .  I my mind, the mounting bracket is a critical component. 

 

By buying the Scarebird bracket you are constrained by there system.

 

I wish I had a service manual for that year, I could show you that part.

 

I have email Scarebird to see if this mounting bracket/cradle is or can be used. Will be interesting what they say.

 

Carl

Carl,

here is the service manual if that helps you to explain your point https://www.buick-riviera.com/servicemanual.html

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Seeing that capitalized EVERYTHING makes me imagine a deep voice and a finger poking my necktie with each syllable. My point was more to the use of 50 year old parts/technology to upgrade your 60 year old car. There have been advancements in braking over the last five decades. Have any been used?

 

I have other questions that keep me using the OEM system in well maintained condition. One is the line size to the rear drums. The later dual master cylinder exits through two small diameter lines, but the rear wheel cylinders would remain the large original size ports. Where would one adapt to the difference and why would the location of the adapter be chosen? Small diameter tube all the way to the rear or an adapter plate up front? Why did they use large diameter in 1964 and small diameter tubing in later years. How would calculations work out proving the adapted design?

 

In the last 60 years of working on both cars and buildings the one outstanding point is that to get something to work right you usually have to remove the "improvements" and put it back to the original design first. I'm a maintainer, not so much a modifier.

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20 minutes ago, Ckerch said:

 

The brake components might be designed by Buick but in GM's 1971-76 design it included a second component (mounting bracket) that the caliper sits into. From what I understand, the conversion kit does not use this part. This is apples and oranges comparison .  I my mind, the mounting bracket is a critical component. 

 

By buying the Scarebird bracket you are constrained by there system.

 

I wish I had a service manual for that year, I could show you that part.

 

I have email Scarebird to see if this mounting bracket/cradle is or can be used. Will be interesting what they say.

 

Carl

Carl,

  I understand your points. I have not seen a diagram of the Scarebird brackets with the other components mounted up and until then I am just be speculating...

  The caliper should still "float"  because there is a sleeve between the caliper and pin which enables the caliper to float on the pin. The pin should screw into the bracket and the caliper floats on the pin via the sleeve and the smooth end of the pin. So the pin does not thread into or clamp the caliper, it threads into the bracket and only acts as a guide for the caliper to move inboard and outboard.

  I also understand your apprehension regarding how the load is distributed. I expect you are wanting to see a bracket with a "sliding surface" which envelopes the caliper and projects outboard of the spindle versus a flat mounting bracket which places the load entirely on the pins. Again, absent a useful diagram of the Scarebird bracket and its relationship with the other comonents, it is hard to tell where the load is being distributed.

Tom Mooney

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17 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Seeing that capitalized EVERYTHING makes me imagine a deep voice and a finger poking my necktie with each syllable. My point was more to the use of 50 year old parts/technology to upgrade your 60 year old car. There have been advancements in braking over the last five decades. Have any been used?

 

I have other questions that keep me using the OEM system in well maintained condition. One is the line size to the rear drums. The later dual master cylinder exits through two small diameter lines, but the rear wheel cylinders would remain the large original size ports. Where would one adapt to the difference and why would the location of the adapter be chosen? Small diameter tube all the way to the rear or an adapter plate up front? Why did they use large diameter in 1964 and small diameter tubing in later years. How would calculations work out proving the adapted design?

 

In the last 60 years of working on both cars and buildings the one outstanding point is that to get something to work right you usually have to remove the "improvements" and put it back to the original design first. I'm a maintainer, not so much a modifier.

You must have a guilty conscience, Bernie.

 

If it's like other master cylinders that I've seen, the ports on the master cylinder are sized to take the different sized tubing.

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This is an illustration showing Wil\wood's disk brake conversion for a 1965 Buick Riviera.  They do not show any caliper cradle.  

 

1963-65 Buick Riviera Wilwood Disc Brake Kit 4 Piston Calipers 9" Booster  Kit - Pirate Jack

The guy who converted this Buick did the entire route 66 both ways with this Scarebird conversion.  Not a 63-65 Riviera but no cradle for the caliper either.

post-105946-0-46024900-1438143355_thumb.

Another Scarebird conversioin with no cradle

 

Scarebird Disc Brakes on 1962 Buick Electra

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On the '71-'76 Buicks, & the millions & millions of GM vehicles that used the same design, the spindle is one piece. Meaning the caliper sliding pins are attached to the spindle.  There would be very little bending or otherwise destructive forces on the sliding pins.  The ScareBird brackets are made in such a way that they actually bolt to YOUR spindle instead of having to replace the WHOLE spindle assembly.

If I remember correctly Tony from Australia is the one making the kit & it seems to be competively priced & I ALSO believe he has a supplier here in the U.S.

 

Tom T.

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The 1st. pic Ed has shown is of the larger & correct caliper, rotors & pads which are the D52 full size car pads &calipers used on virtually MILLIONS & MILLIONS of GM vehicles.

The 2nd. pic shows the smaller D154 pads used on the smaller cars with the corresponding slightly smaller rotor & smaller calipers.

 

Tom T.

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3 hours ago, Ckerch said:

Here are my concerns:

  1. If I understand this correctly, the caliper is directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket using the guide pins. With the caliper directly mounted to the Scarebird bracket, the stopping force of the car is on the guide pins only. The guide pins are not designed for this since they are used for guiding the caliper and not taking the stopping pressure of the car. As far as I know it, they are not a harden steel.

 

When I read this I shared your concerns that the stopping force would be on the guide pins. It caught my eye because I'm a machinist and I wanted to know if someone would actually design the bracket that way. After looking at the photos and videos about mounting the calipers, I don't think Scarebird intended for the guide pins to control the braking force on their own. 

 

Take a look at the first photo below that I captured from the video. The red arrows point to the area where the caliper and Scarebird bracket appear to come into contact to take the load off the guide pins. The second photo shows the same area on the bracket where the caliper would ride. I think that is very similar to how the braking force is distributed on the GM caliper mounting brackets. The caliper fits tightly in the bracket to prevent all the braking force from being on the pins. 

 

I'm not recommending you use the Scarebird bracket. I'm just telling you what I see from a machinist point of view. I personally wouldn't be afraid to use the Scarebird brackets myself.

 

Scarebird Disc Brake Conversion-1.jpg

 

Scarebird Disc Brake Conversion-2.jpg

 

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That's how GM G and B body cars have their brakes too. The caliper sits in between a pair of flat faced tabs that hold the caliper from rotating with the rotor. The guide pins probably carry some force too, but not the brunt of it. Good info on this thread, I was considering this conversion but decided to keep the stock drums for now.

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18 hours ago, Ckerch said:

...

 

Also, because my brake booster does not hold pressure when motor is off (even though it was rebuilt), I plan on buying a new one when I convert to dual master. Any recommendations?

 

Carl

Check and see if you have that metal and rubber gasket piece between the booster and master. I had the same problem, mine was missing. I can post pics of mine if you don't.

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1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

 

  The caliper should still "float"  because there is a sleeve between the caliper and pin which enables the caliper to float on the pin. The pin should screw into the bracket and the caliper floats on the pin via the sleeve and the smooth end of the pin. So the pin does not thread into or clamp the caliper, it threads into the bracket and only acts as a guide for the caliper to move inboard and outboard.

  I also understand your apprehension regarding how the load is distributed. I expect you are wanting to see a bracket with a "sliding surface" which envelopes the caliper and projects outboard of the spindle versus a flat mounting bracket which places the load entirely on the pins. Again, absent a useful diagram of the Scarebird bracket and its relationship with the other comonents, it is hard to tell where the load is being distributed.

Tom Mooney

Tom,

Being that I don't have the 71 calpers (that is if I can used them with my bracket) I did not know if the sleeves are press in. Looking at the brake service manual SwedeDownUnderR63 sent me it does appear the sleeves would allow the floating. 

 

After reading the description's, it does imply the support bracket has a secondary attachment that does not rely on the guide pins. However the Scarebird bracket that I received does not include provisions for a secondary attachment. Of course, my bracket is also calling for a 71-76 Deville calper. So Scarebird my have changed the bracket Revnut has, compared to mine.

 

I looked at the link Revnut and you provided and it definitely does not include the support bracket.

 

Carl

 

Caliper with support bracket.jpg

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1 hour ago, RivNut said:

This is an illustration showing Wil\wood's disk brake conversion for a 1965 Buick Riviera.  They do not show any caliper cradle.  

 

1963-65 Buick Riviera Wilwood Disc Brake Kit 4 Piston Calipers 9" Booster  Kit - Pirate Jack

The guy who converted this Buick did the entire route 66 both ways with this Scarebird conversion.  Not a 63-65 Riviera but no cradle for the caliper either.

 

 

Nice exploded view.

That kind of confirms step 1 in post #3. Willwood uses a dual piston design and does not need a support bracket and is not a floating caliper design. These are just like what is on my Vettes where the caliper is bolted using harden bolts to the steering knuckle and trailing arms in the rear. 

 

Thanks

Carl

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1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

 

When I read this I shared your concerns that the stopping force would be on the guide pins. It caught my eye because I'm a machinist and I wanted to know if someone would actually design the bracket that way. After looking at the photos and videos about mounting the calipers, I don't think Scarebird intended for the guide pins to control the braking force on their own. 

 

Take a look at the first photo below that I captured from the video. The red arrows point to the area where the caliper and Scarebird bracket appear to come into contact to take the load off the guide pins. The second photo shows the same area on the bracket where the caliper would ride. I think that is very similar to how the braking force is distributed on the GM caliper mounting brackets. The caliper fits tightly in the bracket to prevent all the braking force from being on the pins. 

 

I'm not recommending you use the Scarebird bracket. I'm just telling you what I see from a machinist point of view. I personally wouldn't be afraid to use the Scarebird brackets myself.

 

Scarebird Disc Brake Conversion-1.jpg

 

Scarebird Disc Brake Conversion-2.jpg

 

 

Pictures are worth a thousand words and knew I was over looking something.

So the bracket itself is acting as the cradle/support bracket and taking to stopping force load. This makes so much more sense and makes me much more comfortable with is. I do wish Scarebird would have more pictures showing the setup.

 

Rivnut: I missed this on your post

 

Thank You

Carl

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51 minutes ago, jsgun said:

Check and see if you have that metal and rubber gasket piece between the booster and master. I had the same problem, mine was missing. I can post pics of mine if you don't.

I will have to get out there tomorrow and check. Would love it if was that easy.

 

Thanks

Carl

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2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

I have other questions that keep me using the OEM system in well maintained condition. One is the line size to the rear drums. The later dual master cylinder exits through two small diameter lines, but the rear wheel cylinders would remain the large original size ports. Where would one adapt to the difference and why would the location of the adapter be chosen? Small diameter tube all the way to the rear or an adapter plate up front? Why did they use large diameter in 1964 and small diameter tubing in later years. How would calculations work out proving the adapted design?

 

I can see why the front lines could be smaller since Disc brakes like to have 2-3 PSI preload and start braking above that where drums like 10lbs of preload. Disc brakes also do not need as much flow because piston travel is lower. However, that seem to contradict the small tube to the back brake theory. I would think the smaller tubing would have slower response unless the small tube can provide the required flow. If my understand of proportioning valve is correct, I would expect the (adjustable or one from a 67 Riviera) proportioning valve could compensate for it since those rely on rear brake pressure build up prior to providing front brake pressure. That could overall make the whole brake system less responsive.

 

Great......the anxiety level just went up again

Since I am no changing out the rear brakes, I would stay with the stock diameter. Just a gut decision.

 

Thanks

Carl

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I've had the Scarbird setup on my 65 Electra for almost 10 years now. The install went easy in 2011 and all parts were easily obtained. Mine setup called for a variety of parts (see photo below) I installed a dual master cyl with prop. valve. I kept the list of parts and part numbers for who ever might need them. The list came with the install instructions.

I used Dot 5 fluid and the brake system worked great. But.....the pedal was always hard and I had to put a lot of pressure on the pedal the first few times braking. After that, it stopped on a dime.

Since my daily driver is a Mini Cooper, I always have to change driving styles when driving the Electra Boat. A bit of a challenge at times.

I'm currently returning the brake setup to original with drums all around for a few reasons. Originality and hard pedal are the top 2 reasons for sure.

After buying new front wheel cylinders, MC,  hoses and springs,....I noticed that the original master cylinder was 1" bore. My dual MC was 1 1/8" bore. Maybe that added to the firmness of the pedal.  So check out the diameter of both master cylinders before making the switch.

I started the job as the cold weather came into Ohio. I still have to swap out the MC, new hoses and bearings, adj shoes, and bleed the system.

Here are some photos of how it looks today.

Any questions, let me know.

 

Good Luck

 

Bill

 

IMG_5596.jpg

IMG_5597.jpg

IMG_5598.jpg

IMG_5599.jpg

IMG_5601.jpg

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1 hour ago, wmsue said:

I've had the Scarbird setup on my 65 Electra for almost 10 years now. The install went easy in 2011 and all parts were easily obtained. Mine setup called for a variety of parts (see photo below) I installed a dual master cyl with prop. valve. I kept the list of parts and part numbers for who ever might need them. The list came with the install instructions.

I used Dot 5 fluid and the brake system worked great. But.....the pedal was always hard and I had to put a lot of pressure on the pedal the first few times braking. After that, it stopped on a dime.

Since my daily driver is a Mini Cooper, I always have to change driving styles when driving the Electra Boat. A bit of a challenge at times.

I'm currently returning the brake setup to original with drums all around for a few reasons. Originality and hard pedal are the top 2 reasons for sure.

After buying new front wheel cylinders, MC,  hoses and springs,....I noticed that the original master cylinder was 1" bore. My dual MC was 1 1/8" bore. Maybe that added to the firmness of the pedal.  So check out the diameter of both master cylinders before making the switch.

I started the job as the cold weather came into Ohio. I still have to swap out the MC, new hoses and bearings, adj shoes, and bleed the system.

Here are some photos of how it looks today.

Any questions, let me know.

 

Good Luck

 

Bill

I know there is a difference between Bendix and Delco Morane compatible master cylinders. From my understanding is you want to go with the Delco Morane combination. Not sure if that would cause the hard pedal pressure or the bore size difference. I either case you don't expect hard pedal pressure with power brakes . Seems that there was some restriction somewhere and maybe even in the proportional valve issues. In any case, I understand why you would go back to drums. Are you also going back to single reservoir master cylinder ?

 

The whole master cylinder/power booster is the next thing to tackle. I would like to go with a 67 Riviera combination but not sure it will bolt up.

I am just north of you in Michigan and can't wait until warmer weather to get going on this project. Good luck to you.

 

Carl 

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Can't wait for sure. Both my Buick and my Mini have been up on stands for 2 months waiting for the weather to break.  Soon, I hope.

 

Yes, I'm going back to single MC. Going to try and make it factory original.

 

Good luck on your project.

 

Bill

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Just to let everyone know.  A 1" bore master cyl. has MORE pressure, BUT less volume.  A 1 1/8" bore master has LESS pressure, BUT MORE volume. Part of the reason is that some cars have a 3/16ths. diameter line going to the rear & others have a 1/4" line going to the rear. Because of the extra longer line to the rear required a 1 1/8" bore master to send the proper amount of fluid to the rears.

On a '65-'66 Skylark Gran Sport the front wheel clinders are a larger diameter than the regular Skylarks unless the Skylark had manual brakes & NOT power. The larger front cylinders apply MORE pressure, BUT use the same master.  ALSO the reason the rear wheel cylinders are a smaller diameter from the fronts because not as much braking or power is needed in the rear. ALL the weight is in the front the reason being the w/cyls. are larger.  

You can get just about ANY combo to work correctly with the proper combination of parts  NO MATTER what it is. Will take some thinking & tickering & understanding of how and what the proper brakeing system is all about to arrive at the combo that's suitable for your expected results.

The spindles from a '67-'69 full size Buick car will bolt up to your existing suspension & they have the more desirable 4 piston non sliding calipers just like your Corvette.  The only problem is that caliper bores need to be sleeved.  I know you can buy 'Vette calipers that are already sleeved for about $99.00ea. at one time. Problem is the other Buick/GM caliper 4 piston design is diff. from the 'Vette. The thing that stops most is there are now 8 sleeves needed to rebuild these calipers at somewhere between $100.00 each & I've seen at $175.00 each x 8. Can get costly in a heart beat. Then you need the IMPOSSIBLE to find rotors, '67-'69 ONLY, & the correct pads which can be sourced. Then come the brake hoses. Not an impossible task, BUT trial & error & measuring to come up with the right combo.

MANY years ago I installed disc brakes on my '64 RIV. I bought new from a '70 Estate Wagon, which were a bolt-on, would be the same for ALL Buick full size cars in '70.

Now this set-up was 1970 ONLY. Try to find rotors for an ONLY one year produced vehicle.  I have new rotors for the '67-'69 cars as I also own a '68 Wildcat with discs &  ALSO have a new pair of '70 rotors. Of course NONE are NOT for sale.

May I make one suggestion???  I DO NOT use the combo proportioning valve. In my mind it's NOT NEEDED.  I've been doing it the way I will explain as it is less costly & MUCH easier to install.  I use a metering block which does the same as the combo proportioning valve which DOESN'T let the discs start to apply before there is 300pds. of pressure on the rear. Same/same.. Most of these so called disc brake kits have NOT been engineered properly. Most ALL have one drawback or another.

 

Any more questions I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

 

Tom T.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ckerch said:

 

Pictures are worth a thousand words and knew I was over looking something.

So the bracket itself is acting as the cradle/support bracket and taking to stopping force load. This makes so much more sense and makes me much more comfortable with is. I do wish Scarebird would have more pictures showing the setup.

 

Rivnut: I missed this on your post

 

Thank You

Carl

It’s pretty clear on the V8TV video (if you can be patient through all of the ‘sponsorship’ crap.) You’ll actually see the bracket mounted to the spindle and the brake parts attached to the bracket.  

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Tom

 

With the 64 Riviera using 1 1/8 wheel cylinder in the front, 1" wheel cylinder in the rear and a 1" bore master, I would assume the rear lines would be the smaller ones 3/16". I have not verified it yet but believe that is what currently is used. Since the lines have never been replaced, the 1" bore must be able to supply enough volume to the smaller rear and larger front. However, with the Scarebird system calling out a 71-76 Deville caliper, that bore size is 2.94 inches. It seems that the piston in the disc brake should have less distance travel but would that affect the master cylinder bore size? Not sure and bigger is not always better.

 

Swapping out spindles and system from another model is way above my level of confidence. Wish I did have that knowledge. Interesting that you talk about install sleeves. Because the Vettes are not usually (especially in the north) driven regularly, it is common to have them sleeved with stainless steel. I don't see that use here.

 

I have not messed with a metering block. It looks like it has only one master cylinder input so would you use a single reservoir master cylinder? Also if it waits until the rears get up to pressure before firing the fronts, if your rears fail, would that take down the whole system? Is there something about the proportioning valve you don't like or the metering block just less finicky?

 

Thanks

Carl

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23 minutes ago, RivNut said:

It’s pretty clear on the V8TV video (if you can be patient through all of the ‘sponsorship’ crap.) You’ll actually see the bracket mounted to the spindle and the brake parts attached to the bracket.  

 

Yep, I was focusing on Scarebird duplicating the GM system and had tunnel vision. With Scarebird selling alot of these for so many years, I figured I had to be missing something.

 

 I received feedback from Scarebird and they said the bracket had changed and can no longer use the Riviera caliper and rotor parts. Hopefully the the Deville caliper will bolt up the same way. I don't see why they wouldn't. Now I just have figure out the rest of the system.

 

Thanks again

Carl

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Interesting.  I bought my brackets from a guy on Craigslist a number of years ago.  I’d better see if they can tell me which brackets I have. I may have a bunch of 1975 Riviera brake parts that I can’t use. 😳

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9 hours ago, RivNut said:

Interesting.  I bought my brackets from a guy on Craigslist a number of years ago.  I’d better see if they can tell me which brackets I have. I may have a bunch of 1975 Riviera brake parts that I can’t use. 😳

If this helps, the markings on my bracket are:

RIV B27

WLD USA

 

Carl

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3 hours ago, Ckerch said:

If this helps, the markings on my bracket are:

RIV B27

WLD USA

 

Carl

Thanks, I'll take a look at mine and see if I can find the numbers. Which calipers were your brackets designed for?

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