Guest J446 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 HiAfter driving J446 (A 1931 Frany Duesenberg) all summer I'm in the process of a major winter service. I'm attacking the exhaust system, instruments, brakes, and oil leaks. I am amazed that this car won a CCCA National Prize. The previous restorer did a beautiful cosmetic job but as far as making it able to do anything more that drive on and off a trailer his work IMHO was a sad joke.How can judges award prizes to cars that don't work?IMHO every switch, control, and system should work and these cars should be able to be driven. Heads of screws should be tightened, not lined up!BestJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 This is an age old topic! I think it is very rare to find a car that was restored to win a National Award in any club and perform as a good driver as well. If a car is being professionaly restored at X dollars per hour of shop time for future resale, chassis items won't get touched. I've seen J446, it is painted in my favorite color, and it has the "Look", the mechanicals wouldn't make it a better show car. Problem is you and the restorer have different degrees of restoration. A friend that used to do Duesenberg mechanical work was very proud of the fact that he could do a valve adjustment in 36 hours of shop time. You couldn't see this on the show field, but 36 hours of block sanding and paintwork will draw a crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 And Bob, as we both know, there are just not enough judges and not enough time to judge vehicles as J446, you and I would like to see them judged.It has been said that AACA judging is only a beauty contest. I cannot argue that it isn't. I assume CCCA still judges some level of operability, at least they did years ago when I judged there, but even that doesn't assure that the innerds are right.The best judge of any vehicle is a knowledgable owner of his own vehicle. So because of the number of cars being judged, along with the time and number of judges available, the best way to see that a car is right is to do as J-446 is doing --- do it yourself or alternately to stay on top of the restorer. Personal attention is the only way to get it right!But of course, as always, that is just my opinion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Miller Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 In CCCA we do judge everything that is on the car for operability, and we do deduct for rough running motors or brakes that are weak. I would guess that your car got its badge some time ago, and since then these items have deteriorated. It is easy enough to figure out. My Cord was given senior badge #2228 in April of 2000. What is your badge number?Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Howard,Your opinion as always,in my opinion is RIGHT ON,diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I guess it it the same old story.After you spend a million hours or a million dollars wharever the case may be,do you REALLY want to take it out on the road and devalue it or destroy it? Everybodys different,you guys all know how anal a nut and bolt restoration can be.My dad and i had our biggest arguments over how nice our 37 Ford phaeton was to be finished.The 39 Zephyr is being put together to be DRIVEN,after all ,looking at the big picture whats more important the correct finish on some chassis hardware or getting along with dad.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Howard and I learned to judge at the same time, from the same people. Many years ago he followed me as Chairman of Judges Training. Former AACA President Hank Krusen used to say that "judging is the hobby within the hobby." Cars were judged hard in those days, or possibly, there just weren't the same quality of cars that we see today. Hank also used to say, "I've never seen a 400-point car." A lot has changed since those times, mostly shop rates, but then again, so has income. I disagree with '37 that you can't show and go. If the car is restored correctly, you probably can't afford to sell it for a long time to come, I will agree with that. If you just throw money at a professional restoration shop, a lot of people will pull up short when it comes to operability, and I'll agree with that. At $55, $65, an hour or more you can be out of house and home. But if you restore smart, you can show and go. You have to be the contractor, and what you can't do yourself, you have to sub-contract out. In doing that, you have to do your research. You need to find a terrific mechanic (that includes all fields of restoration) who is working for someone, but will do your job at home (his or yours). Or, you have to find a mechanic in the business who loves old cars and will work your car in during his slack times. When you do that, you have to be prepared to wait a long time, or in some cases a very long time. You can't put time ahead of quality, and sometimes the best can only give you so much time. Don't settle for a poor mechanic because he'll finish your job fast. You'll hate your car forever if you do. Every corner you cut will haunt you until the day the car drives out the driveway with somebody else behind the wheel. My Grand National Senior car (see rear cover of September-October 1981 AACA magazine) won a Grand National first in 1982 when there was no Grand National Senior, and no point spread. I drove it to all three shows to get the Grand National First. Thinking it was as far as we could go, I drove it 10,000 miles over the next 18 years, including to a Founders Tour. In 2000, on the third try, and after hiring a professional detail man for less than $150, she squeaked in (I don't know that, I assume it) for her Grand National Senior. This was because the car was restored so well, from the bones up, from 1978-1981 by a number of well qualified sub-contractors and a buddy of mine who was the best detail man I've ever, ever known. If you want to keep and enjoy the car, you can't build a limper. The mechanics are the foundation of the car. Think about this too. If it costs $44500 to restore it, it's no worse than paying $44500 for a Ford Expedition (or Excursion whichever is the larger one). When you finish with the Ford SUV it's worth $5500 or something and you don't worry about. Same is true of your old car. Build it and enjoy it. When you start thinking only about money and profits, all the fun goes away. If you wear it out, do it again. That's no worse than having to buy another new piece of "Detroit Iron" to run down the road. Right? As hvs says, "that's just my opinion", and I say, "but I'm sticking to it." <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 ShawnThe screw heads aligned themselves? The heads of the bolts were painted locked after it won Louis Vitton, Pebble Beach?, CCCA National First Prize #628? The innards of the exhaust system including the rusted in place deflector (Jake Brake) inside the polished muffler were working when it won this prize? The brake cylanders indside the painted and polished cases were rebuilt? The cockpit brake bias system was working? The chassis lube system was working? The spare tire wasn't filled with water from too much washing? The water temp gauge was accurate? The stopwatch mode in the clock worked? The altimiter worked? The over Aromoralled fan belt didn't slip because the excentric adjusting bolt had been painted locking it in place?I don't think so.BestJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Dynaflash8, I didn't imply that you couldn't show and drive, I just know that it is rare to see current AACA National First Prize winners on tour, sure once they have won everything they start touring. I also noticed that some REAL top end Vintage race and sports cars have flawless top shelf restorations, and are raced as if they were current F1 cars. Someone once told me that if you did take out a million dollar race car and walked away from the wreck that was worth rerestoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 One of the best club set-ups for judging I've come accross is the one used by the Vintage Triumph Register, the national U.S. club for Triumph cars. I judged at their 1991 National in Cincy.They organize a number of events at their national convention prior to judging Saturday. Usually chief among them are a tour, a rally and an autocross. To be judged in the Saturday concour, you <span style="font-style: italic">must</span> enter the car and complete one of the events. Ir's been too long for me to remember particulars, but I remember that even people who arrived Saturday morning could still enter the last event in time to have their car judged.British sports car guys tend to be a little different! I recall more than a few derisive remarks made when one member stazted pulling his car off of one of the only trailers at the convention. I can understand their side. Especially for a sporting car, it seems a waste to make a <span style="font-style: italic">car</span> into an ornament.Basically there are two sides to the car hobby; antique, classic, custom or street rod. There are those who build cars to drive, and enjoy that aspect of the car. And there are those who build cars to show. I generally find myself among the former, often enjoying the ride to a show much more than the show itself. The approach for each side is different.The "drivers" restore cars (hopefully) to their best road-going condition, sometimes (for antiques) described as "as delivered from or to the dealer". The "showers" restore and prepare cars to car show ready state, as in the old GM Motorama or some other formal presentation of the design. The road-going nature of cars in these events, even new cars, is unimportant. Most cars at your local new car show even today will have the battery out, systems disabled, no fluids, polished tire surfaces, and any other manor of modifications for show that hinder or eliminate street use. If you're making a "show car", frozen exhaust deflectors and low oil pressure are simply not of concern.At least the AACA requires the cars to move under their own power on occasion. When people started paying $1 million for 20 year old Ferraris it became debatable if driving antique cars would remain a pillar of the hobby. I left the AACA about 10 years ago when I saw that it was becoming (after the great boom in car values of the late 80's) more of a haven for judged/cosmetically perfect cars and less an outlet for touring and other active uses of antiques. I returned only after the "drivers class" was added so that my bug and paint chip infected cars wouldn't be one of a dwindling number of poor sisters in the organization. Trailer queens are what many people want out of the hobby. I think Shawn's problem occurs when someone buys a trailer queen for driving purposes. It's unrealistic to expect an undriven car, regardless of appearance, to be mechanically sound. A 4" hot pink pump may look good, but don't expect to walk the White field in a pair! They weren't built for it. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Dave ~ Send her and those 4" heels by my spaces. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I'm in the paved Red Field. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />hvs TO 1937HD45 ~ Bob, if you read this, please contact me direct by e-mail.I need an e-mail address to respond to your last communication. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Who said anything about a "her"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Dave: With todays traffic, the older cars that I normally have (and not real old either -- late 30s, early 40s --) are a lot more difficult to run openly on the highways than the 66 Chrysler I just sold. The '35 Buick even has mechanical brakes, and that's a trip to drive on US27 here in Florida, but I do it anyway, within 25-50 miles. There are now five National Tours, and up to four Divisional Tours a year sponsored by AACA. You might not have the right car for all of them, I don't, but nevertheless it is a controlled situation in which to drive your antique car perhaps 600 miles in a week. I drive all of my cars to some degree. True, I'm holding back on one until I see if it can get a Grand National, but I drove it 75 miles each way to Richmond -- and fast enough so that RW Burgess was willing to follow! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> However, now the 39s are getting really old, parts are getting really hard to get, and most of all I don't know but one mechanic who could/would put in a new clutch on a torque tube drive Buick and he's 52 and about ready to close his shop and drive a tractor trailer. I've driven the Grand National car enough since 1978 that he just put in a new clutch, tho partly because it wasn't driven all the time. But to continue, it makes absolutely no sense to me anymore to beat my cars over the interstates, and accept the rocks that tractor trailers throw, and the pounding of those highways, so I have a 24-foot enclosed trailer now. It's to get from point A to point B, and too, I hate cleaning up a car, so once is enough for me <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, man, my cars sure aren't "trailer queens." I just thought I should say this before you see me unloading the next time. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad to see you've rejoined AACA and like the new "Driver's Class". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Good heavens, Dave! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> You do shave your legs first, don't you? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />hvs <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Howard: Like Mother's says: "Wax on, wax off." Dynaflash: I wasn't criticizing trailer queens in any way, let alone the practice of trailering a driver long distances. I was trying (in my usually over-verbose way) to explain to Shawn that a good looking car, much like a good looking woman, hides many flaws that are not apparent until the miles start to rack up. If all you want to do is look for a while, well..... I don't think anyone ever intended a pre-war car to be a regular interstate tourer. However--that said the failure to use them as such is not limited to just pre-war cars. I've had the occasion many times to hear people mention that they didn't want to put too many miles on their Monte Carlo/F-150/TR6/GTX/(fill in the blank with any 100+ mph vehicle you care to name) because they're worried about losing points or monetary value. I believe that this attitude, and the practice of over-preserving our cars, are the greatest allies that the street rodders have. The fact is that any car capable of a sustained 70-75 mph can travel easily on any interstate that isn't overcrowded, and is probably more at home and more comfortable in doing so than they ever were crossing the country on U.S. 30 or U.S. 19 the day they were new. Not as easily as a modern BMW 5-Series for sure (and certainly mechanically limited as a daily commuter), but hardly beyond the realm of human or mechanical endurance. While no one should be criticised for not wanting to exert themselves or their cars beyond their own level of enjoyment, I think it can be a little bit self-fulfilling to back away from a car's limits in the name of caution (even if those limits are 2500 miles/yr as per Mr.'s Condon & Skelly).That is why all those years ago I jumped in on those "Young People" threads and the "Agoraphobia" thread. The idea that the Chrysler 6's that my dad regularly turned over 200K miles on before I was born are now un-streetably feeble machines is silly. But it is <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">THE</span></span> idea that is selling <span style="font-weight: bold">a lot</span> of Chevy V8 crate motors to <span style="font-style: italic">Street Rodder</span> readers! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Dave: What is it you say, "never believe the hype"? No question about it, somebody is believing some hype if they think an old 327, 383, 225 slant six or 322 nailhead can't run up and down the road like a 350. Probably it's hard to get parts now for the 322, but I was still buying parts for that old 383 at Discount Auto. I got tired of it, and now I miss it <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I used to run the '39 Buick down the interstate....drove it to a National in Louisville from Baltimore once. I feel a bit guilty dragging it in a trailer now, so I guess you hit my funny bone. But the way things are now, I think it's the thing to do for me, but I will say putting the ties on in the trailer are almost as bad as washing it a second time, except at 64 I can lay down to do the ties and I have to stoop down to wash the wheels <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Yea, You're right Dave. Those crate motors are sure handy, but I wear the original 350's out before I get the new one. That's why my wife's last Caprice was such a sleeper. 300hp 350 in an old '84 Caprice will fool them every time. And like J466, I love to drive my stuff. Old Buickflash didn't hold me up too much the day he was talking about, but I can't get him in my Fuelly Corvette for some reason! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> He'll tell you, "I've seen him drive!" Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Gee Wayne, You are a trained professional, I'd ride shotgun with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Bob, Trained or not, some people like to drive on the edge. I'm afraid I'm in that group. I don't own one vehicle that has a carbon builtup problem.I like to drive in the snow using the four wheel drift method going around turns in my four wheelers. With the big rig I like to be in front regardless of the speed required to get there. Like those Nascar drivers say, "It's hard to hit anybody when they're all behind you." <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Just got back from looking at innards of exhaust systems, brakes, wheel bearings, and wheel nut systems.The engineering Duesenberg used is amazing. The condition inside the beautifully painted and polished components was truely scary. I'm now in the process of repairing it all to good working order. The exhaust baffle is now freed up and I can direct the exhaust through both tail pipes or use it for partial engine braking. One of the brakes was not working at all but I'm sorting that out and will probably have to rebuild all of the brake cylanders and change many brake lines. Next I'm going to remove and clean the gas tank and get the gas gauge working. The CCCA web site has been very helpful in locating parts and someone to rebuild the other gauges. Finally I'm going to open up the engine and see what's doing inside of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Dear J446,Sounds like the SCARY part is just around the corner.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I agree with Diz about the scary part, whew!On those brakes, most of the people I've know (Buicks of course) who have tried to use the silicone brake fluid developed extreme problems with the hydraulic brake cylinder. The wheel cylinder cups they used were neoprene and worked okay, but they were using NOS Master Cylinder rebuild kits that had real rubber cups. The silicone brake fluid caused the real rubber to swell and lock up the brakes. Also, I had a Plymouth that the previous owner had switched to silicone, but he did not sufficiently clean out the system first, and the combination fluids caused all of the wheel and master cylinders to lock up, not at one time, but one after the other. After two, I rebuilt the system and put DOT brake fluid back in and had no more problems. Don't know if this info will be of any value to you, but it's free <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Thanks. The problem is more that the previous owner IHHO was more interested in appearance than whether or not the car worked. The engine so far seems fine. I'll attach some photos along the way. The one thing that did work, thank God, was the E brake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Attachment of frozen exhaust deflector. Shut engine braking. Open through exhaust system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you buy your car at auction? This is always tough as you don't get to drive the car first which would show quite a few of the issues you mention.Many of the Duesenberg Chronographs where replaced with fakes over the years. You can tell because the minute counter on the stopwatch will not function. A real one will show the edges of the other numbers around the zero, and the fake ones usually just show a zero (and won't turn). I'm always amazed that this is not picked up during judging. At Auburn this year I would say 25% were not original.If your chronograph is a replacement one and you would like a correct one I can put you in touch with a source for a 100% correct unit.regards, Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Yes. Thanks. I'll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 So much for the pothunters.......Let 'em have their trophies. I drive all my cars regularly and have not shown any for about 10 years, chiefly not to expose them to any any anal-retentive scrutiny as they sure show their mileage. You can bet that I pay for this regular use with more than routine maintenance and frequently replaced or rebuilt parts as all of my cars have their individual weak spots but that's part of the pleasure I derive from them, in a sense seeing how far I can go, testing the limits of these rolling archaisms before a component fails requiring dedicated and loving care to be made ready again for more continued use. Old Austie said it best: "Next to sex and liquor driving old cars is the greatest feeling you can ever experience". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dube Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I hadn't bothered to look up J446 until you mentioned Franay. It may have some problems, but what a beautiful car! I don't believe I've seen this one personally. Will you bring it to Auburn sometime? If you do, I'll be the drooling fool trying to cadge a ride.By the way, I totally agree with you: cars are meant to be driven, and all the systems should be functional. Unfortunately, I don't believe too many of your fellow J owners feel this way any more.Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 HiRemoved the steering wheel and columbe. Found out why wheel was shaking. Missing and loose bolts. More of the same.I'll be at the Greenwich Concours May 31-June 1.BestJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 random thought from 35,000 feet. Looking down on Spain (had to drop the twins off for a modeling gig) and I can`t help but notice the instrument panel screws on my Gulfstream G-V are tight AND aligned in nice even rows. CORDialy Jerry <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 But is the grease in landing gear wheel bearings nice and thick or is it starting to liquify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Just got back from checking out J446. Will post pic on monday. All in all it's coming along nicely. Much internal rust. The braking system on this car is amazing. We've figured out how to balance it and will soon have the cockpit brake bias adjuster working. It has a setting labled "Snow" Hummmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Have always believed in DRIVING my old cars. Otherwise just stick planters around it and enjoy a fixed object. Have owned a 39 Plymouth for over 40 years now. NEVER babied it. Had no fear of driving it 75 mph plus on interstates. It did scream a little but took it well. (Will admit I did leave a lot of space in front for braking ---those old brakes not really very good) Cars were meant to driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Moving right along. The brake system was a disaster. Shoes were glazed. Parts were painted only on the side a judge looking under car could see. Brake lines were crimped and filled with sludge. The spindles which are a work of art, fluid flows through them to the brakes, had grease that had turned to cement and bearings that were destroyed. 80 bolts holding this all together were rotting away. The master cylander innards were worn into oblivion. Brian Joseph, (in the CCCA web site under parts) has been very helpfull in providing parts and talking my mechanic through it. He's highly reccomended for parts.The gauges are being rebuilt, they turned out to all be original and the porclanmanifold is being re porclanized the correct bottle green. We'll have it all together for Greenwich. This time it will run, (and stop) as well as look good.BestJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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