Newer vehicle enthusiasms

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Pete O said:

If you think about it, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the blandness of modern cars.   What makes them bland is that they are too perfect.  Even the lowest price cars handle like a sports car from 50 years ago, the noise, vibration and harshness has been engineered out, 100k miles between tune ups, 6k miles between oil changes- neither of which you can do yourself.  They have no individual personalities.  What gives a car a personality is quirkiness, but nobody would buy a quirky car today.  The car you look back on with the most nostalgia is the one that gave you an adventure- maybe because of a breakdown on the roadside that you had to overcome.  Funky handling, a mechanical feel to it, the ability to raise the hood and do your own maintenance connects an owner to his car, but all that is gone because we demanded cars that handled better, ran quieter, had longer maintenance schedules ,were more reliable and the car manufacturers gave us what we asked for.

I almost agree with all that you said except the part about the tune-ups, oil change. I have no problems with maintenance on new vehicles, and when there is a problem 95% of the time the car can tell you what the problem is.

[JamesR]

17 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

But this one and to a lessor extent my wife’s Kia Soul, not so much.

 

Quote

John said: Today's cars have no Soul.

 

I suspect that's why they came up with a model name  like "Soul"...to compensate for a lack of one. Other names like "Vibe" and "Kicks" tried to do the same thing. And then you have all the cars that attempt to resurrect past automotive glory, like Camaro or Challenger (among many others.) It's true that these cars are probably better than the originals in a technical sense, but a new Challenger says "look what I bought" while an original Challenger (even with their high prices) says "look what I found."

 

I actually like driving around in my mini van, it makes me feel confident....but it doesn't really make me happy.

[joe_padavano]

2 minutes ago, JamesR said:

but a new Challenger says "look what I bought" while an original Challenger (even with their high prices) says "look what I found."

 

Actually, a new Challenger says "does this butt make my car look big"?  I mean, seriously, park a new one next to an old one and the new one looks like it needs to lay off the donuts and ice cream.

 

 

[Pfeil]

On my new 2019 ( at the time ) at about 1500 miles I started to get a ABS pulse in the pedal ever so often under braking. At 2000 miles or so the ABS light would come on intermittently. I hooked up my scanner and it told me a rt rear sensor fault code came up. I went to the dealer ( warranty) and the service manager came out to the truck and hooked up consult. Immediately consult was in contact with engineering saying they had five other trucks with the same problem and mine was the sixth. They wanted the third member and that a new third member would be at the dealership air freight the next day afternoon. It seems our supplier ( DANA) had a problem with the axle housing at the rt bearing causing a slight minute wobble of the bearing in the housing which in turn caused a very slight eccentric movement of the axle shaft which the ABS sensor picked up. I worked 34 years in the engineering department for that make of truck and cars. Some manufacturers make good products and care about them and the people who drive them. Thinking about this same problem in the pre-ABS days a car or truck would have been a lot worse off.

[Pfeil]

20 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Actually, a new Challenger says "does this butt make my car look big"?  I mean, seriously, park a new one next to an old one and the new one looks like it needs to lay off the donuts and ice cream.

 

 

I think I would be glad that a manufacturer is making something that us old farts can relate to and bring new kids into it too. 

[Grimy]

Let's not forget that the factory warranties pre-WW2 (at least) were for 90 days or 3,000/4,000 miles, even for the most expensive cars.  And for tire or battery issues, one had to take the car to the service center for that make of component, not to the car dealer.

[George Cole]

29 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Let's not forget that the factory warranties pre-WW2 (at least) were for 90 days or 3,000/4,000 miles, even for the most expensive cars.  And for tire or battery issues, one had to take the car to the service center for that make of component, not to the car dealer.

Yes, but there are no free lunches. We pay for them one way or the other. 

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, George Cole said:

He told me to come back when he had more time to talk to me.

Invite the individual to MAKE time and to have Zone level service people in on the visit.

 

One shouldn't need an EE or computer engineering degree to operate a vehicle.

 

I tried tailoring some of the driver controllable settings on my 08 F150. That's great until the battery is disconnected and everything resets to factory defaults. After the 3d time I just live with those.

[Roscoe]

My wife and I agreed a long time back- we keep one nice, newer car for her to drive and as the family vehicle- and I can drag home antique junk to my heart's content. Her present appliance is a '17 Xt5. Beautiful car, she says, and it is very nice for a trip- loaded with every option I guess. I drive it a couple, three times a month. It's boring. 

My antiques aren't as shiny, are in a constant state of disrepair and rebuilding- and she cannot understand why I'll drive a 69 year old pickup instead of her luxobarge to town. 

The '53 has a name. The '46 has a name. The daughters '79 Corvette has a name. Her car- meh, it's the Cadillac. The last car she had that actually began to have a personality to me was her '14 MKX that an uninsured driver totalled. I was growing kind of fond of it, in part because I did nothing except add gas and change the oil in it for the 70k miles we put on it. 

The Caddy made it two weeks from purchase before it hit me for a repair bill, and totally guaranteed I'd never frequent that particular dealer again. 

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Electronic gremlins are certainly part of the new car ownership experience and my new Buick is no exception--it's been in the shop with electronic bugaboos for about 40% of the time that I've owned it. And while I hated the car, I'm really going to try to give it another chance now that most of the problems have been excised. Yes, they did try to explain that I was doing it wrong, but when I asked them to show me how and it didn't operate they way they expected, they started taking me seriously. It is now two "brains" past that point and seems to be operating correctly. I'll give it a chance because everyone else says it's a great car and I've been so fixated on the electronic issues that I've ignored everything else. So I'm trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it'll win me over, maybe not. But it has the potential because it's pretty and practical and I like Buicks.

 

How many great old cars have been problematic? Buick Self-Shifters are practically extinct today because the buyers hated them and insisted that the dealers remove them. Seen many '50s cars with operational air spring systems? Or did they all get coil springs when the system proved so unreliable that it was unworkable in the real world. Chyslers with primitive fuel injection where there was a factory notice for dealers to quietly tear it all out and replace it with a carburetor? New tech is problematic and customers frequently hate it--that's not a new experience, either.

 

Time has a way of making us forget how awful things were in the past. If our brains didn't work like that, everyone would be an only child.

 

 

Buy your own OBD-II scanner, but a GOOD one where the user can perform resets.  You might be able to experiment with the settings and adjust them to your preferences.

 

Craig

[TAKerry]

I have an ML320, I bought it 2 yrs old. My wife ran the snot out of that thing for 15 yrs. Motor is still strong and ran great! Then the electronic gremlins started popping up.  Its now in the barn collecting dust.

[60FlatTop]

4 hours ago, TerryB said:

You just need a big wallet too.

 

Bring My Wallet = BMW. One 3 liter 6 was not enough, two, side by side.

 

I have been moving cars around to position our old Tahoe for work. My wife and I came back from lunch and she said "It is interesting t pull in and see your two black cars sitting together. Sometimes I walk up to the wrong one.

An older picture of "The Twins" : ).

 

Every car I buy has its own special reason for coming home with me. And there will be more in the decades to come.

[Marty Roth]

Haven't bought a new vehicle recently, but thought to share this story:

 

A retired older couple return to a Mercedes dealership where the salesman has just sold the car they were interested in to a beautiful blonde in a mini skirt and halter top.

 

The old man was visibly upset. He spoke to the salesman sharply. "Young man, I thought you said you would hold that car till we raised the $55,000 asking price," said the older man. "Yet I just heard you closed the deal for $45,000 to the lovely young lady there."

"And if I remember right, you had insisted there was no way you could discount this model."

 

The salesman took a deep breath, cleared his throat and reached for a large glass of water. "Well, what can I tell you? She had the cash ready, didn't need any financing help, and, Sir, just look at her, how could I resist?", replied the grinning salesman sheepishly.

 

Just then the young woman approached the senior couple and gave the car keys to the old man... "There you go," she said. "I told you I could get him to lower the price....

see you later Dad" 

[Morgansdad]

11 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

This will be an interesting topic, Plymouth Cranbrook.

I pretty much agree with others:  Today's cars have no Soul.

 

I have some old color and upholstery albums, such as for

my 1978 Lincoln Mark V.  It's fun to pick out combinations

for cars as if I were a buyer back then--so many combinations

of paints, molding colors, vinyl roof colors, vinyl roof styles,

velour or leather upholstery.  A person's car could be his own.

 

 

John, the Kia's do, they have a soul. LOL.

[Ed Luddy]

9 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Electronic gremlins are certainly part of the new car ownership experience and my new Buick is no exception--it's been in the shop with electronic bugaboos for about 40% of the time that I've owned it. And while I hated the car, I'm really going to try to give it another chance now that most of the problems have been excised. Yes, they did try to explain that I was doing it wrong, but when I asked them to show me how and it didn't operate they way they expected, they started taking me seriously. It is now two "brains" past that point and seems to be operating correctly. I'll give it a chance because everyone else says it's a great car and I've been so fixated on the electronic issues that I've ignored everything else. So I'm trying to keep an open mind. Maybe it'll win me over, maybe not. But it has the potential because it's pretty and practical and I like Buicks.

 

How many great old cars have been problematic? Buick Self-Shifters are practically extinct today because the buyers hated them and insisted that the dealers remove them. Seen many '50s cars with operational air spring systems? Or did they all get coil springs when the system proved so unreliable that it was unworkable in the real world. Chyslers with primitive fuel injection where there was a factory notice for dealers to quietly tear it all out and replace it with a carburetor? New tech is problematic and customers frequently hate it--that's not a new experience, either.

 

Time has a way of making us forget how awful things were in the past. If our brains didn't work like that, everyone would be an only child.

 

 

My last new car purchase was a 2006 Dodge Charger Daytona with the 5.7 Hemi. It was a blast to drive. Slow or fast. It had electrical gremlins, engine problems, and brake rotor warpage, all from 2 months into service. I kept it for 11 years and had a love/hate relationship with it. I'd never buy another one. I parked it and bought  a 3 yr old 2011 Hyundai Genesis sedan and it was flawless and very nice to drive. Invisible and slightly boring compared to the "GoManGo" orange and black Daytona but overall a better car. 

[BobinVirginia]

It would really be interesting if Benz, Duryea and Haynes could see what they created. 
What a truly amazing thing the automobile is and it’s effect on our lives. This entire forum and many careers owe their existence to people searching for a better way to traverse the landscape free of animals. The same can be applied for agriculture and construction equipment. 
 

I’m convinced that style and quality are timeless. 

[BobinVirginia]

7 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Well this has been enjoyable to say the least. I was really only commenting on enjoyment I guess and never meant to dis newer cars. But I still(after 8 months and 3000 miles )still a little  nervous about the Traverse as apparently if a mouse passes gas near the car it will set off a warning light. So far four times but never long enough to set a code. Then I read about all the exciting issues that I didn’t see before I bought it. Then I think about getting rid of it while prices are up but then what?  Auto shortage has raised all prices. 

Thanks for starting the conversation! 

[Chris Bamford]

14 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

...Each morning I look forward to driving my 2004 Audi (converted to a pickup...

I would like to see a photo of that rig 🙂

[John348]

14 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Until the damned thing breaks and the factory service people have no idea how to fix it!

 

Technology's great until it ain't. At that point it becomes a burden.

 

That is very true, depending on the brand you purchase. I get a free a loaner car so they can take all the time they want with it.

[mike6024]

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2004-audi-a4-9/

 

[BobinVirginia]

The engine management systems offered by Holley and FiTech truly offer a user friendly option to old cars. 
 

While I’m a fan of older simple tech, these systems offer ease of usage. Perhaps best of both worlds for a driver type classic? I’ve been wondering how the senior car engines would react to modern engine monitoring systems? Can you imagine the horsepower potential of a Duesenberg given variable timing and fuel load? 
Fun to think about! 
 

[joe_padavano]

9 minutes ago, BobinVirginia said:

The engine management systems offered by Holley and FiTech truly offer a user friendly option to old cars. 
 

While I’m a fan of older simple tech, these systems offer ease of usage. Perhaps best of both worlds for a driver type classic? I’ve been wondering how the senior car engines would react to modern engine monitoring systems? Can you imagine the horsepower potential of a Duesenberg given variable timing and fuel load? 
Fun to think about! 
 

 

While they have initial ease of use, as an aerospace engineer I question their longevity and reliability. No aftermarket part is ever subjected to the level of testing the factory preforms on production parts, and even they make mistakes. These aftermarket systems are rarely used on cars driven more than occasionally in the summer. People make a lot of "upgrades" that increase potential failure modes and reduce reliability because some magazine or website told them that they had to.

[BobinVirginia]

@joe_padavano

 

I know a few people with each of the engine management systems I mentioned. So far, so good and they’re being used in a number of applications. One is a twin turbo V8 setup and is allowing precision tuning for the racing application it’s for. Of course, the longevity of these products is yet to be determined. I’m always very impressed with what engine builders made with early technology. Just fun thinking  about how the early engines might respond to modern fuel delivery and timing controls. Cool stuff 

Edited March 6, 2021 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[carbking]

Our late model vehicle is going to remain a "low mileage vehicle". ONE PERSON CANNOT SAFELY DRIVE THE VEHICLE BECAUSE OF THE TOUCH SCREEN. IT REQUIRES A DRIVER TO HOLD THE STEERING WHEEL, AND A NAVIGATOR TO ADJUST THE HEATING/AIR CONDITIONING/DEFROSTER CONTROLS! Even the radio controls are impossible without pulling to the side of the road!

 

And congress help you if you accidentally touch one of the unmarked adjustment buttons on the steering wheel, when you exit the vehicle. Next time you enter the vehicle, start it, and the display is haywire; go back in the house for the laptop, Google the issue, and look for a Utube video to reset the display. The 500 page operator's manual was obviously originally written by someone whose native language was pig latin, and then computer translated to something somewhat resembling English!

 

And when the temperature drops, regardless of how much snow you must clean off the vehicle, you must start it every morning, or the "live sensors" will run down the battery.

 

Back on the touchscreen, since this thing has more computer capacity than NASA, would it be too much to ask to have an option to replace the icons with text?

 

We bought it for trips; it has evolved into "driveway eye candy".

 

4-wheel drive it is, and less predictable on slick roads than my 53-year-old pick-up truck.

 

I am reminded of a true story when a departed friend who owned an import dealership in the 1970's, and his chief mechanic attended a new car "familiarization" meeting. The factory rep told of all the new improvements to the new model. When he was finished, my friend's chief mechanic stated: "Huh, some vehicles make improvements, "xxxxx" just makes changes"!

 

We have "improved" these "vehicles" until they REALLY need improving!

 

End of rant!

 

Jon.

[TAKerry]

7 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

While they have initial ease of use, as an aerospace engineer I question their longevity and reliability. No aftermarket part is ever subjected to the level of testing the factory preforms on production parts, and even they make mistakes. These aftermarket systems are rarely used on cars driven more than occasionally in the summer. People make a lot of "upgrades" that increase potential failure modes and reduce reliability because some magazine or website told them that they had to.

Years ago I was one of those guys that 'added' stuff to my Harley just because. My brother kept saying how foolish I was. Guess what? I started having problems, just minor stuff but none the less. All the aftermarket crap came off and the bike has run flawlessly for many years. I have a buddy with a pretty new HD, he did the same except his bike is computer controlled. He did some kinda upgrade aftermarket chip thingy, For the longest time just about everytime we rode he had some kind of problem, while my trusty old carb motor ran fine.

[padgett]

You missed my convertible that won't shift if the console gets wet.

[BobinVirginia]

27 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

Years ago I was one of those guys that 'added' stuff to my Harley just because. My brother kept saying how foolish I was. Guess what? I started having problems, just minor stuff but none the less. All the aftermarket crap came off and the bike has run flawlessly for many years. I have a buddy with a pretty new HD, he did the same except his bike is computer controlled. He did some kinda upgrade aftermarket chip thingy, For the longest time just about everytime we rode he had some kind of problem, while my trusty old carb motor ran fine.

Hard to beat a good carb for reliability! 

[TAKerry]

My wifes boss had an S class Benz.  He left the dr window down (unknowingly) in a rainstorm.  The computer or at least one of them, was under the driver seat, which also happened to be a low point that the water settled in. Car was deemed a total loss. 

[BobinVirginia]

4 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

My wifes boss had an S class Benz.  He left the dr window down (unknowingly) in a rainstorm.  The computer or at least one of them, was under the driver seat, which also happened to be a low point that the water settled in. Car was deemed a total loss. 

What a shame!! I’m sure that vehicle wasn’t cheap. 
I spray out the floor pans of my old work/plow truck with a water hose!! 
Don’t think I’m well suited for a vehicle like that Benz! Lol

 

[joe_padavano]

Don't get me started on electronic nanny crap. Had a rental car with a lane departure warning that shook the steering wheel. I didn't know that and thought the power steering had a flaw.

When backing into a parking space, I frequently open the door so I can look down at the lines. Many new cars automatically shift into park if you open the door. Of course, the fact that there isn't a hard linkage between the shifter an the trans (or between the accelerator and the throttle body) should be a big concern. What failure modes???  🙄

 

And sorry, but if I can't drive safely without the electronic nanny crap, I shouldn't be driving.

[BobinVirginia]

3 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Don't get me started on electronic nanny crap. Had a rental car with a lane departure warning that shook the steering wheel. I didn't know that and thought the power steering had a flaw.

When backing into a parking space, I frequently open the door so I can look down at the lines. Many new cars automatically shift into park if you open the door. Of course, the fact that there isn't a hard linkage between the shifter an the trans (or between the accelerator and the throttle body) should be a big concern. What failure modes???  🙄

 

And sorry, but if I can't drive safely without the electronic nanny crap, I shouldn't be driving.

I agree 100% 

I truly don’t like nanny features myself! 

[60FlatTop]

9 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

(or between the accelerator and the throttle body)

 

That BMW 12 of mine doesn't even have a throttle plate. The VANOS system varies the valve lift to perform that function. I like the engine technology, the two communications buses, and the motorized sway bars that work with you on a turn.

 

When I had my 1935 Nash Advanced Six I liked the Invar struts in the pistons and the cable that ran between the frame rail and the distributor through a couple of pulleys to "manage" the timing as the engine leaned under torque, pretty neat, I thought.

 

Enthusiasm, it appears that the older I get the more I shy away from the old stuff and the more I embrace the recent. I am very happy to be using my Foxwell NT680 Pro scanner. Just lining up the adapters makes me smile.

[Pfeil]

50 years ago, seems like yesterday, we used to ( as a person working for a auto manufacturer) have a dealer advisory board. The board would field back questions and comments like the ones you all have made in the above thread. 

No one does that anymore.

[TAKerry]

I had an 83 F100 for a work truck. I think that was the last one that I could open both doors and spray the mud out of the floors. Dont get me wrong, I like the luxury of my FX4 but I do miss that part of cleanup.

[60FlatTop]

14 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

No one does that anymore.

 

I live near Rochester, New York where Eastman Kodak closed down the R&D labs. The decided to buy technology. Now, how was it that William Durant lost control of GM the first time?

 

Just an aside, yesterday I left my wife in my conventional cab Silverado while I went into a supply house. When I came out my wife said the warning on the visor was written in English and French. I said "Sure, it's a Chevrolet." Then she said it instructed the operator to put a child seat in the rear seat. A you wonder why they can't get the details right.

[Pfeil]

50 years ago, seems like yesterday, we used to ( as a person working for a auto manufacturer) have a dealer advisory board. The board would field back questions and comments like the ones you all have made in the above thread. 

No one does that anymore.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  I forgot to add that we would get pre-production vehicles ( usually 1 year in advance of production) so model line engineers, engineering staff, tech staff and school teachers for tech training could familiar themselves with the new years model. All would add input to shortcomings etc.

 

  We also had a vehicle serviceability team come through about every 6-8 months where we would identify problems we would encounter and what dealer techs were encountering in the field.

 The fun part was getting a design engineer to remove and repair or replace a part that either he or his team created or designed where that part went. I will never forget the bloody hands and arms when these guys finished up. Hopefully that teaches people who design things not to layer a part that is considered a serviceable part. We also had the time study people out there to take notes on flat rate times at the same time-that was a eye opener for them.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[padgett]

You missed the 50 pages in the owner's manual on how to fasten a set belt.

 

Think the concept of a "driver's car" ended about 2015, glad all of mine are earlier.

 

  Tillotson carb on my Harley was very simple, the magneto ignition, not so. My mistake for getting an XLCH.

 

"but the gear ratios are so close together (to keep engine RPMs in the most efficient band)" This I do not understand. Variable Valve Timing (VVT) gives us a torque band that is 90% of peak from 2,000 to 6,500 rpm and suddenly we need 10 gears ? Makes no sense to me.

 

Of course once upon a time I knew all of the Pontiac zone reps. No more.

 

Stupid thing: my 12 Jeep Grand Cherokee is a better road/trip car & gets better mpg than the Cad CTS which is smaller, weighs less, and has the same size engine with VVT

[TerryB]

I am sure glad I’m not in the market for a newer car today.  All the touch screen nonsense is ridiculous.  I guess getting a printed manual is still happening.  My wife’s 2018 Subaru came with at least four manuals.  It’s a job just figuring out which manual you need when you are trying to figure out what button or setting to use. What is really needed is a check box in the manuals that puts a mark next to the equipment that your car has so you know to skip over the other 8 possible options for heater controls your car does not have.  That would save time and grief.  I expect the next models will use the display for this information rather than a book to save $$$.

[Matt Harwood]

People called me a Luddite at best and an idiot at worst for not being delighted with electronic controls and nanny paranoia in my new car:

 

 

[joe_padavano]

Sorry, Matt, but when I glanced at the photo quickly, I thought the word at the bottom of the screen was "Dumb@$$"  😆