George Cole Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Okay guys/gals, help me out here. Today I stopped in at the Fantasy of Flight aviation museum on I-4 between Tampa & Orlando. They've got 3 cars on display with the aircraft, including a 31 Model A roadster, a 32 Chevy coupe, and what they called a 1936 Cadillac. Not being 100% sure myself, I asked if they were sure. They said they were. I took the attached pictures to double check, and lo and behold, it's a 1938. It looks completely original, missing the air cleaner. Chrome looks in extremely nice shape. No damage that I could see other than a million tiny bubbles in the paint. Where is the serial number located? The two guys working there said they've looked all over and can't find it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKB1MCV Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Harley Earl- Bill Mitchell design, Fleetwood 60 Special, 1938 was first year for the 60 Fleetwood. High style then and now. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 1938 Cadillac 60 Special designed by a 23 year old Bill Mitchell under Harley Earl. It is one of the seminal designs of the late 1930's, the first example of the 3-box sedan configuration in mass production. 3-box refers to how box one is ahead of the windshield base/cowl, basically the engine doghouse. Box two is the lower body from the windshield base/cowl rearward including the integrated coupe-style trunk. Box three is the separate greenhouse placed on top of Box Two. This would become the standard sedan configuration completely by the early 1950's, still persist today, though being displaced by the crossover CUV. The touring sedans of the 1920's-1930's were 2-box, with an attached 'touring' trunk by the mid-'30's a 2 1/2 box sedan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 I believe the serial number is stamped in the frame on top in the engine compartment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, K8096 said: I believe the serial number is stamped in the frame on top in the engine compartment Do you know which side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Boehm Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) The serial number/vin number is on the driver side on top of the frame in the engine compartment on the diagonal near the oil filler tube. 7 digit number. The serial/vin number and the engine number is on the engine block on the slanted surface behind the driver side head. If the serial/vin numbers do not match, the engine has been changed. The serial number for a 1938 60 Special should start with 627 followed by 4 more digits. Edited January 24, 2021 by Tom Boehm (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) Your tag photo clearly shows STYLE No 38-6019S In this case, the "38" indicates the Model Year and the next two (2) digits show it to be a "60" Series Sedan Hope this helps Edited January 24, 2021 by Marty Roth (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Marty Roth said: Your tag photo clearly shows STYLE No 38-6019S In this case, the "38" indicates the Model Year and the next two (2) digits show it to be a "60" Series Sedan Hope this helps And for many years after Fisher body four door sedans, of all divisions(?), carried the digits 19 as part of the style number. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 The Standard Catalog says the serial number is 'on the left frame side bar, at the rear of the left front motor support'. It would be interesting to know if that is true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 I will post the results here when they check it out...which they said they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said: The Standard Catalog says the serial number is 'on the left frame side bar, at the rear of the left front motor support'. It would be interesting to know if that is true. On the 1939 75 I owned for 42 years, the serial number is indeed on the left (driver's side) top horizontal surface of the frame midway between the ends of the cylinder head. Removing the left hood side panel makes it easy to find, but have a wire brush when you're looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 @George Coleon the 1938s (only) the condition of the dash plastic is hugely important. What I see in the photo looks pretty good. That's an early plastic which crazes and curls if left in direct sunlight over months/years, and is an excellent example of unobtanium. A number of years ago those pieces were reproduced in bronze (?) then plastic coated for appearance--probably all snapped up now. If that's original plastic on the steering wheel, it's a good idea to make a steering wheel cover from a thick white terry cloth bath towel and put elastic around the inside circumference--used when you park in the sun for a few hours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Grimy said: @George Coleon the 1938s (only) the condition of the dash plastic is hugely important. What I see in the photo looks pretty good. That's an early plastic which crazes and curls if left in direct sunlight over months/years, and is an excellent example of unobtanium. A number of years ago those pieces were reproduced in bronze (?) then plastic coated for appearance--probably all snapped up now. If that's original plastic on the steering wheel, it's a good idea to make a steering wheel cover from a thick white terry cloth bath towel and put elastic around the inside circumference--used when you park in the sun for a few hours. The dash and steering wheel looked to be in excellent original condition. As you can see in the pictures, it is parked inside a hanger and does get exposed to sunlight through the windows, and the open hanger doors. I should have checked the mileage, although it's obviously been repainted. I'll pass all the info on to them. It's a very beautiful car, and the wide whites really set it off. I already told them if the museum owner decides to downsize again (like he did a few years ago,) and the car's on the chopping block, to let me know. Don't know how I'd pay for it...maybe sell a kidney? Or wait...is there really a market for ex-wives? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, George Cole said: wait...is there really a market for ex-wives? Don't I wish! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 Looking closer, it appears the horn button is cracked. No problem...I still want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 16 hours ago, George Cole said: Fantasy of Flight aviation museum If it is truly a registered museum there are legalities that require certified archivists to manage the collection. You have have been talking to an employee with a doctorate in Chinese enameled furniture, or the like. Sometimes you can be lucky enough to find a dolcent volunteer wiping dust off the cars who will provide more accurate information. This lack of specific knowledge can surface at fund raising sales, which one may want to keep in mind when considering an object for donation. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3macboys Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: If it is truly a registered museum there are legalities that require certified archivists to manage the collection. You have have been talking to an employee with a doctorate in Chinese enameled furniture, or the like. https://www.fantasyofflight.com/collection/ If you haven't been to this museum it is well worth the stop. We were fortunate to have gone when the whole facility was still open. I stand to be corrected but I think most of the aircraft are maintained in flight worthy condition. There was a full restoration shop on site and the work that they were doing was incredible. I seem to remember that in one of the hangers there was a wall with 28 surplus Merlin engines. These people know their stuff and are extremely friendly. The day that we were there there was an antique car tour that had made a stop and they were given a place of prominence to park on a taxi way in front of one of the hangers. Don 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Great looking car George, but it should come with a driver. If you get lucky enough to make a purchase I will commit to becoming your chauffer! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Flat top, you may be correct with your info on a museum, however I have been to many looking at both cars and chinoiserie and one thing in common is volunteer labor. Not everyone knows everything about every object (although in the case of the furniture museums it seems they do). Especially a car in a flight situation. George, have you been to the Glenn Curtis museum? I found it by accident but it is a great place to spend a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Maybe 20 years ago our Florida Club drove our antique cars over to the Museum for the day. After a walk thru the WWII section of the Musem we came out where the flight simulators were. One of our members was a retired airline pilot and he got many of us to fly the simulators at the same time. As I took off in my simulator, my flight ended. It was expalined to me that I didn't crash but was shot down from behind by the airline pilots wife. Apparently she was trigger happy and started firing her machine gun while taking off. Thus ending my stint as a fighter pilot. It was tragic, but funny. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURktman Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Fantasy of Flight, isn't that Kermit Weeks' collection / operation? He has an insane collection of hard to find aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: If it is truly a registered museum there are legalities that require certified archivists to manage the collection. You have have been talking to an employee with a doctorate in Chinese enameled furniture, or the like. Sometimes you can be lucky enough to find a dolcent volunteer wiping dust off the cars who will provide more accurate information. This lack of specific knowledge can surface at fund raising sales, which one may want to keep in mind when considering an object for donation. Bernie It's an aviation museum...no Chinese enameled furniture. The employee who toured me through it is a 20-year retired Air Force aircraft mechanic. No degree in antique car restoration, but from what I've seen on this site, there's not much faith in them either without decades of experience. As I said in the original post, there were only 3 cars in the hanger, and by the time I was looking at the Caddy closely, I had 2 employees taking down ropes, opening the hood, doors, etc., and asking me questions about it. They admitted cars weren't their specialty. I offered to help them out with info from those in the know...AACA members. Hence...this thread. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 1 hour ago, AURktman said: Fantasy of Flight, isn't that Kermit Weeks' collection / operation? He has an insane collection of hard to find aircraft. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) I thought the thread was asking for help identifying the car that museum employees were having trouble with. Twenty-five years ago a group of us in Rochester, NY, which is rich in automotive history, tried to start an automotive museum. I still have a notebook of all the requirements to register and operate a nonprofit museum. It didn't take long to figure out most of us, as mere hobbyists, were excluded from key operating functions. In the end it became a red tape disappointment. But, then, regulations are a reactionary thing. The car, for sure, is a 1938 60 Special and one of my all time favorites. In 1974 I started using computers as a regular part of my daily job functions. I needed a password and chose 60S0 always hoping to make it 50S1 eventually. That air cleaner is probably in the back shop somewhere. They tend to get pin holes in the oil bath reservoir and leave oil trails. Yann Saunders of Cadillac Database fame has some stories to tell about curators of collections and how they can be quickly aided by the hobbyist. Edited January 24, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 12 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: I thought the thread was asking for help identifying the car that museum employees were having trouble with. Twenty-five years ago a group of us in Rochester, NY, which is rich in automotive history, tried to start an automotive museum. I still have a notebook of all the requirements to register and operate a nonprofit museum. It didn't take long to figure out most of us, as mere hobbyists, were excluded from key operating functions. In the end it became a red tape disappointment. But, then, regulations are a reactionary thing. The car, for sure, is a 1938 60 Special and one of my all time favorites. In 1974 I started using computers as a regular part of my daily job functions. I needed a password and chose 60S0 always hoping to make it 50S1 eventually. That air cleaner is probably in the back shop somewhere. They tend to get pin holes in the oil bath reservoir and leave oil trails. Yann Saunders of Cadillac Database fame has some stories to tell about curators of collections and how they can be quickly aided by the hobbyist. Yes, you are correct. I was looking for help identifying the car and anything of interest about it. I'm not a big fan of sedans of that era, but this one is by far the exception. It is a very beautiful car. The grille/nose/hood is by far better looking than anything of that period. Likewise with the lines of the body and rear. And the car appeared to be in very nice condition. Providing the numbers match, it looked like it would be an extremely easy restoration...if there is such a thing. (Sure beats missing/damaged parts, massive rust repair, etc.) I pointed out to them that they somehow needed to cover the carburetor, if for no other reason than to keep critters out. Everything there is Kermit Meek's private collection, which has been open to the public at that location since 1995. It is the worlds largest private collection of operable planes. Kermit has more aircraft than the Air Forces of Austria, Cuba, Kuwait, Denmark, Portugal, or South Africa. I have no idea of its status as an official museum. I've driven by there well over 100 times and wanted to stop, but prior to Saturday, never did. Now I wish I had stopped years ago, as because of dwindling interest, attendance has fallen off, and he has downsized to one hanger. When I was there on Saturday afternoon, besides me there were fewer than a half-dozen other tourists. From what I understand, he still has all the other aircraft in other hangers, but no longer has them on display. He used to do daily aerial displays from his private grass and water runways but has stopped them as well. There were somewhere between 25-30 aircraft on display in the hanger. Against one wall was a huge rack of 19 brand new in-the-crate Allison V12 engines. In addition, there was one used one in the rack (painted white,) and one lone Merlin (painted blue). Alongside them was a dual V24 Allison, which is 2 Allison V12s mated together. There were only a few of them made and were tested in several aircraft, including B-29s, but at the time everything was transitioning to jets, so the project was scrapped. The 'museum/collection' had a predominantly military flavor...there were a handful of racing planes, but the majority were WWI & WWII vintage military aircraft. The largest in the hanger was a B-24 Liberator, which my Dad trained on as a navigator in the 1950s. Most of the display aircraft were parked within several inches of one another. I told them that if a tire were to go flat, they'd have aircraft crushing other aircraft, as they were parked that close. There were about a half-dozen training simulators grouped together, roped off, and off-limits due to Covid concerns. And there were the 3 lone civilian cars, which stood out like a sore thumb...including the Caddy, which was squeezed between and tucked under the wing of several planes. As the Caddy had already been repainted at least once and needed painting again. I suggested that in keeping with the mostly-military theme of the display, they should repaint it as General Patton's staff car. I have already passed all above info to my contact there and asked his response in searching for the Caddy serial numbers. He already responded that Kermit is not considering downsizing the display anytime soon, so is not interested in parting with the Caddy. Thanks to everyone for their interest and response. Regards, George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 20 hours ago, TAKerry said: Great looking car George, but it should come with a driver. If you get lucky enough to make a purchase I will commit to becoming your chauffer! 20 hours ago, TAKerry said: Flat top, you may be correct with your info on a museum, however I have been to many looking at both cars and chinoiserie and one thing in common is volunteer labor. Not everyone knows everything about every object (although in the case of the furniture museums it seems they do). Especially a car in a flight situation. George, have you been to the Glenn Curtis museum? I found it by accident but it is a great place to spend a few hours. If by some act of God I ever do wind up with the Caddy, you are welcome to drive it any time you wish. Nope, never heard of the Glenn Curtis museum, but I'll look into it. Regards, George 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 If you are in the area and have the time, its worth a long visit: Glenn H. Curtiss Aviation Museum - Aviation History / Naval Aviation / Early Aviation - Finger Lakes - Hammondsport, NY (glennhcurtissmuseum.org) Hammondsport, N.Y. at the south end of Keuka Lake is an historic, scenic village, the surrounding hills dotted with wineries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said: If you are in the area and have the time, its worth a long visit: Glenn H. Curtiss Aviation Museum - Aviation History / Naval Aviation / Early Aviation - Finger Lakes - Hammondsport, NY (glennhcurtissmuseum.org) Hammondsport, N.Y. at the south end of Keuka Lake is an historic, scenic village, the surrounding hills dotted with wineries. I spent the first 19 years of my life a few miles from Cooperstown, NY. Then the Air Force spent the next 20 years sending me to more places where it snowed more. Upstate NY is way beyond the Mason-Dixon Line, (which to Floridians is I-10). I'll have to get my passport renewed before even considering it. Edited January 26, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I thought it was I-4! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Its a shame the attendance is down, but I suppose that is par for the course, especially in todays climate. Maybe if it had some funny looking ears by the entrance a few more parents would expose their children to the history of our country. My parents took me to museums and historic areas -Williamsburg, Gettysburg, etc.- at a young age and it def. left an impression on myself. If and when I get to FLA next time I will put this place on my to do list. My uncle flew during the war, and retired as a commercial pilot. He flew 'the hump' and also flew the Berlin Airlift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, TAKerry said: I thought it was I-4! From what I have been told, I-4 is the the frost line. None south. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Pop always said you needed to be below the lake to enjoy FLA year round. Sorry I digress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Wright Patterson air base in Dayton OH has a very good airplane museum. If you like to see war birds it’s a place to get very close to a lot of planes. The best place is the annual Oshkosh air show every July. Second best is the Smithsonian out near Dulles airport. Sorry for the hijack. dave s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) As for the 1938 60S displayed with other transportation, it fits well. I have been collecting "what I call" automotive art for quite a few years. Including these former scrapbook pages: Robert Neal has a great book on Packard aircraft engines that is worth owning. I don't have that but I do have signed copies of his two Packard books that cover '48-50 and '51-54. Trains too! Edited January 25, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, George Cole said: I spent the first 19 years of my life a few miles from Cooperstown, NY. Then the Air Force spent the next 20 years sending me to more places where it did. Upstate NY is way beyond the Mason-Dixon Line, (which to Floridians is I-10). I'll have to get my passport renewed before even considering it. Here in Louisiana, the Mason-Dixon line may be just a few miles north of I-10, or anything north of Lake Ponchartrain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 50 minutes ago, Marty Roth said: Upstate NY is way beyond the Mason-Dixon Line, Toronto across the lake from a hill not too far west of me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marty Roth said: Here in Louisiana, the Mason-Dixon line may be just a few miles north of I-10, or anything north of Lake Ponchartrain No! Say it ain't true! I grew up in Bowling Green Ky and it was south of the Mason Dixon. Next thing is they will deny the South ever existed. Marty, You have assimilated very well! Edited January 25, 2021 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Cole Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 hours ago, SC38DLS said: Wright Patterson air base in Dayton OH has a very good airplane museum. If you like to see war birds it’s a place to get very close to a lot of planes. The best place is the annual Oshkosh air show every July. Second best is the Smithsonian out near Dulles airport. Sorry for the hijack. dave s Been there...several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 The Glenn Curtis was at his home in downtown Hammondsport, New York until the new building was built in the early 1990's. The museum shared part of the space with the town offices. Mr. Curtis' desk and drawing table were in a room overlooking Kueka Lake. I remember sitting at the table imaging what an inspirational view he had. I seem to remember a Packard V16, maybe right in the room, or at least the drawings. And one of those stationary crank military tank engines. The crankcase rotated. The first Chief Engineer I worked for ran those engines, or tried to, in the desert below The Mountains of the Moon. Lots of neat stuff tucked away in New York. Been across the glider flats by Elmira a lot as well. If my memory is right those earlier scrap book pictures were signed, in the scrapbook, by Jon Whitcombe. Just an art fan who got to meet him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 8 hours ago, TexasJohn55 said: No! Say it ain't true! I grew up in Bowling Green Ky and it was south of the Mason Dixon. Next thing is they will deny the South ever existed. Marty, You have assimilated very well! TexasJohn55, Yup, when gettin' schooled at U of K in Lexington, Bowling Green was South, but could you get good Burgoo down that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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