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New Replicas - low volume motor vehicle manufacturers act


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It is all very well but hopefully history is not being recreated. By that I mean when theses 2021 'replicas' get to be 25 years old will there be sufficient documentation to ensure they are not represented as the original 1981 models - or what ever they replicate.

 

It is quite common to see photos of 1970s-80s era Auburn Speedster replicas captioned as 1936 - or what ever year they represent - and the modern generation struggles to get the difference. Of course as time goes by those 1970s-80s car become 'antiques' in their own right. They are just not 1936 cars.

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3 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

It is all very well but hopefully history is not being recreated. By that I mean when theses 2021 'replicas' get to be 25 years old will there be sufficient documentation to ensure they are not represented as the original 1981 models - or what ever they replicate.

 

It is quite common to see photos of 1970s-80s era Auburn Speedster replicas captioned as 1936 - or what ever year they represent - and the modern generation struggles to get the difference. Of course as time goes by those 1970s-80s car become 'antiques' in their own right. They are just not 1936 cars.

100% agree - eventually duping someone out of their hard earned cash for what is usually a low value, low quality fake!

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By law, the VIN contains the model year.

 

Also, under this new provision, "...the powertrains must be California Air Resources Board (CARB) compliant..."

 

Anyone fooled into thinking one of these is an old original deserves to be fooled.

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It shouldn't be hard to tell original vs replica, with a new engine and host of other modern components. Plus they will  have documentation showing it as a 2022 model replica that's tied to the VIN so they can be street legal.

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It will be interesting to see how insurance companies view, and insure, these items.

 

Of course, if one cannot get insurance, one can always put the replica in their garage (or showroom) and lie to their friends.

 

Just guessing here, but by the time all of the body components are reproduced (and they don't have to exactly match the original) that a restored original will probably be less expensive than a replica. Tooling costs money; for low production items the amortized tooling cost/unit is very high.

 

Having said that, if a replica of the Jaguar XK-SS shows up at Mustang prices, count me in!

 

Jon.

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I read a few months back where a company in Japan was building an almost exact replica of the 1953 Corvette. These were slated to be sold beginning 2021. The car did look very much like the '53. However with only 300 being made in '53, do you think the replicas will have any bearing on the value of the originals ?   

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For the right price I would buy a brand new Delorean. Im sure its leaps and bounds better than the original. Have always wanted one. 

As for what the future may bring with a 'replica'. Look at the Shay roadster. Those cars sell for as much as an original model A.

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19 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

For the right price I would buy a brand new Delorean.

 

The only certainty with these "new" old cars is that, given the limited production and setup costs, the price will not be "right".

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My ex wife bought some gold coins once. When gold value was going nuts. I sat there looking at the coins in the sealed plastic container. Reading the rating information about the coin. And I thought I wonder how many people have coins like this, sealed in a container, because you don't want to touch it. It will hurt the value. And I wonder if some of those coins are real. Or just a replica. With a good resale value. Who's going to open the container?

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Can usually spot a replica (not to be confused with a restomod) by the wheels/tires..

Also would expect the "must be California Air Resources Board (CARB) compliant" element to apply only to cars sold in California. New regulation is federal.

Have containers full of coins mainly because got used to emptying pockets before going to the airport. Now my bank is over 20 miles away and they took out the free coin machine.

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and any Cobra with a glossy underside of the hood is phoney.

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1 hour ago, padgett said:

Also would expect the "must be California Air Resources Board (CARB) compliant" element to apply only to cars sold in California. New regulation is federal.

 

That's not how I read it. CARB has regulations for engine swaps, which allow you to swap a newer engine into an older car if you also install all the emissions equipment. I read it as this applies to any car under this reg, not just ones sold in CA. The article says that the replicas must be emissions compliant. Common sense should tell you that the feds aren't going to allow 49 state cars to be sold with no emissions equipment. The e-rod engine package discussed in the article is a crate motor sold by GM that is emissions compliant under CARB and therefore also compliant to federal requirements. It also makes about 375 HP.

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2 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

My ex wife bought some gold coins once. When gold value was going nuts. I sat there looking at the coins in the sealed plastic container. Reading the rating information about the coin. And I thought I wonder how many people have coins like this, sealed in a container, because you don't want to touch it. It will hurt the value. And I wonder if some of those coins are real. Or just a replica. With a good resale value. Who's going to open the container?

 There is a huge stanch  of these fake gold coins.

 So much so, that many investment companies refuse to have them verified.

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ref H.R.2675 — 114th Congress (2015-2016)

 

CARB requirements are more stringent than federal, have been so for many years. Issue is that only California has centers able to test to CARB requirements so would be unenforcable elsewhere. Many states have no testing at all.

 

So CARB certification is nice but expect cars made/sold elsewhere to follow the rules for the other 49.

 

ps "(5) (A) A motor vehicle engine (including all engine emission controls) from a motor vehicle that has been granted a certificate of conformity by the Administrator for the model year in which the motor vehicle is assembled, or an engine that has been granted an Executive order for the model year in which the motor vehicle is assembled subject to regulations promulgated by the California Air Resources Board, may be installed in an exempted specially produced motor vehicle, if—"

 

(Emphasis on "or" mine).

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New cars sold in New York State since 1994 are required to have California emission systems. The first ones came with a special NY emission sticker under the hood. 1996 and newer have a standard California emission sticker under the hood.

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Guest Mark McAlpine

According to Green Car Reports, 13 states have adopted California's emission standards: Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington.  https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109217_which-states-follow-californias-emission-and-zero-emission-vehicle-rules

 

What I've read has said the replica car manufacturers (325 replicas annually from companies that produce less than 5,000 vehicles worldwide, so that knocks out all of the major manufacturers, leaving only companies like the Shelby, the new Delorean Motor Company in TX, possibly the ACD Company in OK, Superformance, etc.).  The law exempts these replicas from modern safety standards, but requires them to install engines that meet current model year CARB emission standards (which means the requirements will get tougher every year that California tightens its standards).  It does not say only cars sold in California, it says all cars produced.

 

I'm not a lawyer and have not read the requirements finally issued recently by the U.S. DOT and EPA, but the Low Volume Vehicle Manufacturers Act of 2015 says:

“(F) Exempted specially produced motor vehicles compliant with this paragraph shall be exempted from—

“(i) motor vehicle certification testing that might otherwise be required under section 206; and

“(ii) vehicle emission control inspection and maintenance programs required under section 110.

Text - H.R.2675 - 114th Congress (2015-2016): Low Volume Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Act of 2015 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

 

So, to me, the law as originally written appears to exempt these replica vehicles from subsequent emission testings.  I don't know if the recent DOT & EPA regulations state anything different.  I would think the worst case is the replica car might be subject to the emission testing required by the state (and city in some cases) in which it is registered. 

 

As Joe Padavano pointed out above, the only crate engine available today that meets CARB standards is GM's LS-3 E-Rod V-8.  One possible problem I read about today:  right now the LS-3 E-Rod crate engine is only certified CARB compliant for installation in 1995 and earlier vehicles in California.  To be installed in one of the replica cars, GM would have to recertify the engine for installation in newer vehicles (so the current model year for new replica vehicles authorized under the law).  Another option--but hard to imagine someone wanting in a replica Shelby Cobra (sort of defeats the purpose of owning a Cobra, real or replica--is to install a GM-s eCrate electric motor.  So are we going to see other companies produce and certify other gas engines (or electric motors) for these new replicas?

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So if made in Florida (hint, hint) would not need to meet CARB requirements, just federal.

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7 minutes ago, padgett said:

So if made in Florida (hint, hint) would not need to meet CARB requirements, just federal.

 

Read the law. The new low volume regulation exempts manufacturers from SAFETY requirements (ie, no airbags, no need to crash test a dozen examples of the vehicle, etc). EPA requirements still apply. And again, common sense here. No small volume manufacturer can afford to certify emissions compliance to TWO different standards. Frankly, there's precious little difference today in performance or complexity between federal and CA certified drivetrains.

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I give up, an not a lawyer just able to read what a law says.

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On 1/23/2021 at 9:58 AM, TAKerry said:

For the right price I would buy a brand new Delorean. Im sure its leaps and bounds better than the original. Have always wanted one. 

As for what the future may bring with a 'replica'. Look at the Shay roadster. Those cars sell for as much as an original model A.

As a past owner of a Shay "A" I can understand why they are as much as an original. Built with Ford blessings and to the original blueprints, sold by Ford dealers, modern Ford 4 cylinder engine and  transmission, Ford disc brakes up front hidden behind dummy drums, etc.

A fake Delorean? Will likely be miles ahead in drivability and quality vs. original.

I'd like to see the Japanese 53 Corvette.

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Would a new production Delorean be considered an "in the future" Delorean?  Would it be capable of more than 88 mph and not need a flux capacitor?

 

Cheers,

Grog

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18 hours ago, capngrog said:

Would a new production Delorean be considered an "in the future" Delorean?  Would it be capable of more than 88 mph and not need a flux capacitor?

 

Cheers,

Grog

I'm afraid the way this past year has been, one wouldn't want to go into the future on purpose. LOL

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 I read that there are so many parts for Delorean vehicles that the Irish manufactured that if all those parts were sold hundreds of new Deloran vehicles could be assembled. If true then what is the reason to manufacture replicas? 

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:26 AM, padgett said:

Can usually spot a replica (not to be confused with a restomod) by the wheels/tires..

 

Very often the "stance" is different, too. It took me a while to realize what it was about the early Avanti II's that looked different than the originals - The front of the Studebaker originals sat lower and there was a (vertically) deeper set wheel well to accommodate this. I actually wouldn't mind owning one of the early Avanti II's, but I'm pretty sure the slightly different stance would start eating at me after a while. They're still cool cars, however, and I can understand why someone would want one, if priced lower than the Studebaker.

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Original Avanti ('63) had round headlight openings. Friend had one with a 4-speed. On a trip the AC would blow snow then ice up.

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16 hours ago, BucketofBolts said:

 I read that there are so many parts for Delorean vehicles that the Irish manufactured that if all those parts were sold hundreds of new Deloran vehicles could be assembled. If true then what is the reason to manufacture replicas? 

I was under the impression that a company in Texas bought those parts. I thought that was who was building them in the first place. If that is the case, I wouldnt consider them replicas as much as a NOS car!

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  • Peter Gariepy changed the title to New Replicas - low volume motor vehicle manufacturers act

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