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Can I drive it every day?


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7 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

     State minimum limits don't protect you or anybody else on the

     road around you for liability.   $10,000 personal injury limits are

     a joke.   You are driving a 100+ year old car that you repaired

     yourself.   You are a target for every lawyer in the state of Florida

     to take a shot at.

     When your car hurts somebody else, the problem becomes yours

     because you knowingly operated this old vehicle assuming

     liability for for yourself and that dangerous old car.   

     Raise you limits!  Don't put yourself in the same class as Matt's

     customer.   Minimum limits are for the homeless and people with

     no assets or earning capabilities.

But if you have other polices, they stack right in top of each other, in many states.  If you wreck your classic and cause $100,000 in damages, and only have minimum coverage, then the policy on your everyday car can then take over.  Not every state is like this though.

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1 hour ago, 39BuickEight said:

But if you have other polices, they stack right in top of each other, in many states.  If you wreck your classic and cause $100,000 in damages, and only have minimum coverage, then the policy on your everyday car can then take over.  Not every state is like this though.

    Ed lives in Florida where you can stack Uninsured Motorists

    coverage, not liability.   Been retired 20 years but doubt that

     it has changed.

     Note: about UM coverages.   It's not a easy claim,  You have to

     be very agressive with your own carrier, often having to sue.

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On 1/14/2021 at 2:47 PM, keithb7 said:

Do you have a sales document with all the fine print that the purchaser signs when he/she buys a new car? The customer signs it, you are protected.  If the buyer refuses to read it, that's his fault.

Back in the early ‘80s, I ran a yacht for a NY attorney, Roy Cohn. The one thing he taught me was that “You can’t sign away your rights. This is America. You have the right to sue anyone for anything!
 A contract or waiver is a nice thing to have signed... it turns away most people but if he takes it to an attorney, it’s just a piece of paper with ink on it.”

 Matt, when all is said and done, what is the final cost of this transaction, money or your sanity?

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On 1/14/2021 at 11:33 AM, Paul Dobbin said:

     State minimum limits don't protect you or anybody else on the

     road around you for liability.   $10,000 personal injury limits are

     a joke.   You are driving a 100+ year old car that you repaired

     yourself.   You are a target for every lawyer in the state of Florida

     to take a shot at.

     When your car hurts somebody else, the problem becomes yours

     because you knowingly operated this old vehicle assuming

     liability for for yourself and that dangerous old car.   

     Raise you limits!  Don't put yourself in the same class as Matt's

     customer.   Minimum limits are for the homeless and people with

     no assets or earning capabilities.


Read my answer again......I was using it as an example. I don’t run minimums, but they are available for every car in every state. Since my 20’s I carried a lot of extra insurance.......when I saw a trailer back into a Model J at a CCCA event. I’m around expensive cars every day, so I have plenty of coverage.

 

How Matt chooses to resolve this issue is truly up to him. That said, he has no moral obligations in my opinion to deal with this. People are adults and make decisions. They expect to be treated like a five year old if something goes wrong. Matt sold a car.......and last time I checked, he doesn’t sell insurance. The fact that some people are dumb as shxx doesn’t mean you owe them anything. I have sold thousands of vehicles.......we had a dealership for fifteen years. Taking back a car with a mechanical issue is good business to keep the customers happy.......I did it several times. It was a good faith transaction that went bad, so we just refunded every dollar, fixed the car, and sold it again. No big deal. Taking a car back because the customer is an ass hoxx .........never. I fix cars, I can’t fix STUPID. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 1/12/2021 at 1:59 PM, Matt Harwood said:

This is only the latest edition of how we have to constantly protect grown adults from their own stupidity and it's friggin' exhausting.

 

I had a music store for many years, and I don't miss it for the reason you mention. Most people work at places where there's some kind of screening process that most of the other people they encounter have to go through - anything from a human resources dept. to some level of educational attainment. Those of us who work/worked retail are in a very different situation, however, even with big ticket merchandise. Charlie Manson can come strolling through the front door of your business at anytime of the day.  

 

Your customer has some sort of emotional problem that isn't too different from all the people who want a guitar so they can be the star that the little voices inside their heads tell them they are. Non-acceptance of reality, or whatever the psychological name for that is. Unfortunately, crazy people are a certain percentage of the population and there's absolutely no way to avoid dealing with them. To me, the most frustrating thing about crazy people is that they don't wear little signs that say, "I'm crazy," so people I eventually allowed myself to put in the category of non-crazy sometimes do a fake-out and do or say something crazy. As hard as it is, don't let them drive you crazy. Developing interests outside of your line of work can help. Have you ever thought about playing guitar?

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Be prepaired MH ,you maybe be setting a precedent that everthing in your auto dealings is subject returnable for any reason,and top it off with worry about customer feed back and reviews according to other's view on here.

 

Buyers remorse no more. Good for them..but not so much for you.

 

At this point your waisting too much of your time on the mess.

 

Either keep up the deal and send the guy to Ebay or a shrink. or 

call the dope to bring the car back ASAP and refund his money (less a complete detailing fee for his grubby covid hands and road dust) and send him on his way and ban him from the lot(but don't state it)

 

Don't give a thought about what others may think on why a car is back on the lot..soory but that is ridiculous and plain paroniod thinking.

If some cluck asks,(and no one will), tell'um "not everybody's checks are good or something.

 

You personally and emotionally and business wise  need to move on and put it behind you.

 

I have a suspision though MH , you want to keep the money😝

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Every time I land on this topic I get a whole string of thoughts swirling around just goading all the little voices. I tend to let things roll off. I my instance I don't take a lot of stuff to seriously. One gets too serious and that starts breeding expectations, sometimes expectations don't get met. That's not good and it can make one resentful. But it is good to play with ideas, ponder the ins and outs.

 

I get a very strong message from all these comments. The underlying question I see is "How do you deal with an extreme exception?" Think about that. How wonderful that this is a exception and extreme enough to communicate about. If it was the rule and just another day of work, not even worth sharing..... Now, there's a problem.

 

Me, crazy? Maybe, but I can discuss the Higgs Boson with intimate detail.

Bernie

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My unsolicited advice is......

leaving the words “ I “ and “you” out of it.

you say:  A persons inability to secure an insurance policy to their satisfaction, isn’t a legitimate reason for a car dealer to take back a car.  Repeat the same line as frequently as needed until it sinks in.

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1 minute ago, padgett said:

Please let's not get into quantum physics...


 

Why not.......it’s almost as interesting as pre war cars............

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On 1/13/2021 at 11:30 AM, padgett said:

and remember Lucas heaters are the reason the English drink beer at room temperature: 38F.

One reason english cars were possible for me was I lived in south Florida. Did drive my MGA from Florida to North Carolina several times. Of course that was before Interstates.

 

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See integer factorization aka fun with quantum computers. Am now retired. Would rather discuss why the MG-TD was the worst example of the TCs (came with a crank for a reason).

Edited by padgett (see edit history)
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Since it is easy for me to spend Matt's money,  I'll relay the practice of Tom Crook,  who I consider one of the greatest classic car salesmen of the last 40 years.   It is hard to get anyone to say anything bad about Tom.  He would buy any car he sold back within a year no questions asked for what the buyer paid for it (minus the transportation and misc costs of transaction).   He did swallow a few over the years but over the long haul did REALLY well. 

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To be fair, Tom sold high end stuff..........to people who weren’t so stupid that they forgot to put the toilet lid up before they relieved themselves...............

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 I was once advised to use this bill of sale,

 

  BILL OF SALE  
5/14/2002

 One 1968 Ford, VIN...
Sold to,___________________________
    
I acknowledge that the car is sold as-is, where-is, without any warranty or guarantee of fitness, and that I have inspected the car and I am satisfied, using my own judgment, that the car is satisfactory for the use that I am going to put it to.  

Signed,  ____________________________
 

Edited by Roger Walling (see edit history)
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Wow, whole lotta cynicism in this thread!  Posters are posting based on years of experience that the buyer apparently doesn't have.  So I think calling him stupid, idiotic, moronic, whatever is unfair.  He sounds like a newbie who thinks an old car daily driver would be cool, but doesn't understand the limitations outlined in the OP.  I suspect his experience has been only with modern cars capable of coping with those limitations.  So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just call him naive.  Granted, he didn't do due diligence, but one has to know at least enough to know what questions to ask.  OTOH, a seller can't be expected to read a buyer's mind to know what unasked questions to answer.

 

I'm no lawyer so I won't comment on legal responsibility, if any.  I have absolutely no doubt Matt was honest in the transaction so IMO he has no moral/ethical responsibility.  But I won't offer advice as to what he should or shouldn't do about the situation.  That is his decision.  I understand the need to vent frustration and if that's all this thread is, fine.  But I do find this worrisome:

 

On 1/12/2021 at 2:59 PM, Matt Harwood said:

....This latest example of adults without brains is exactly why my patience is shot and my energy is gone and my interest in cars is plummeting...

 

If that's really the feeling, maybe it's time to get out of the business.

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4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Me, crazy? Maybe, but I can discuss the Higgs Boson with intimate detail.

Bernie

 

Suddenly, I would like to spend a day or two with you just discussing other than collector cars interesting things! I haven't really tried to keep up with the more recent findings of particle physics or the formation of the universe. In my thirty years earning my keep in cutting edge technologies, I became one of the few go-to guys in certain areas of fault-finding because I developed an expertise in electro-magnetic field effect phenomenon.

 

 

On subject. I noticed a few people mentioning having a good conversation with the potential buyer. I can see how that would go. Whatever you say? Some of what they say; "Oh yeah, I know all about these things". "Been working on them all my life." "Had one in college." "It was just like my dad's." "I sold it about five years ago and really want another one." "Insurance? Yeah, know all about that." "Financing? All set up, don't need any help."

Gee? Where have I heard those things before?

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OK, to reel things in a bit.

 

One, yes, of course we have a purchase agreement that says "as-is, where-is" and that there are no guarantees or warranties. Case law concerning used cars is pretty well established. Nevertheless, there's a pretty wide gray area in which we actually do business. I'm not the sort that just points to the contract and tells people, "Too bad." This is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun, not stressful, and I look at it as my job to facilitate that.

 

Two, there's absolutely a limit to my goodwill and you can use it up before you even finish the purchase or you can be a great guy and I'll really try to help you out. This MG buyer falls somewhere in the middle, as he played a bunch of games and bought the car twice--the first time he backed out after only giving us a deposit, then came back after I marked it down and completed the transaction. So he used up a lot of goodwill there. But at this point, if he asks me to take the car back I'm going to. Why? Well that brings us to...

 

Three, buying it back is simply easier than dealing with the alternative, which will be complaints, accusations that I didn't tell him the truth about the car, and other unpleasantness. I'd rather pay money to avoid unpleasantness than have the relatively modest profits that such a car generates. 

 

This job is rife with pitfalls--I don't sell anything anybody NEEDS. As a result, there are always recriminations, second-guessing, and worries, and if the road after purchase is even a little rocky, it often becomes my fault, or at least my problem to solve. Grownups get upset over broken toys just like little kids, which shouldn't be a surprise to any of you. There's the guy who bought a Corvette that I specifically advertised as non-numbers-matching, then consulted an expert who told him it was non-numbers-matching, and who is now trying to sue me because--well, I don't really know other than he somehow thought he was buying a numbers-matching car when it was clearly advertised as NOM. There's the guy who bought a Jeep, decided to fix an oil leak, dropped the pan, pulled a bearing cap just to have a look and found that the bearings were showing wear and is now demanding a new engine. There's the guy who bought a really nice Mopar, found a small bubble in the paint, picked at it until the entire quarter panel needed to be repainted and sent me a $2500 bill. The guy who bought a Model A with an assigned VIN because the engine was swapped, who later demanded a refund because his state wouldn't allow him to run YoM plates like he wanted to. And the guy with a Cobra kit car where it came off the trailer with a dead battery because the truck driver didn't turn the key off properly, and he decided he didn't want the car anymore because a dead battery was just too much to bear. And that's just in the past few weeks. 

 

In most of these cases, I just throw money at them until they go away--it's less stressful than a fight, even if I would ultimately prevail. It makes Melanie pretty angry and she often wants to fight, but it's just not worth it most of the time. It isn't my responsibility to save any of these guys from themselves, but I do just to make the headaches go away quickly. I don't want that crap hanging over me at night when I can't sleep and am alone with my own thoughts. I don't want to have to find the inspiration to go to work when I have to spend 45 minutes thinking about this crap while I walk to work in the morning. It's probably why I'll never get rich, but we do OK and I'm not complaining. It's just easier, if not smarter or legally necessary, to accommodate these guys somehow rather than to draw a line in the sand and dare them to step over it.

 

We good?

 

 

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Matt. You are a better man than I am, and I applaud you for it. The best I would have done for this guy was try to sell it for him on commission. It’s a shame you have customers like this but I guess it’s just part of being in business. 
I had a customer that wanted me to send out renewal notices to about 20,000 subscribers but use invoice forms instead of renewal forms. The USPS considers invoices as an obligation to pay and renewals an offer of product. It’s illegal to sent a non requested “invoice” punishable by a large fine and imprisonment for each case. I told him I couldn’t do it. He said do it or loose the account. I personally took his file tape to his office and had him sign off he received it. I lost a $15 grand a month account plus his open invoices then he sued. It was still worth it to get rid of a turkey of a client and a dishonest one at that. I did win the law suit! 
Happy you feel good about you decision. If I know of anyone looking for an antique car I will be sure to tell them to check your web site as they will be dealing with a very good person. 
dave s 

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  I totally get where Matt is coming from. I have worked in some form of customer service most of my life. Thankfully most people are reasonable to deal with but there will always be those that either don't know what they want, are demanding, constantly change their minds, or are just plain picky and seemingly never satisfied. 99% of the time it saves a lot of stress, grief and drama to simply be accommodating and help satisfy the customer/client. Yes, human nature wants us to scream "you idiot!", but what we perceive as stupidity may simply be inexperience or ignorance on their part. I sell a lot of parts on line. Thankfully in the last 10 years I can count on one hand those that have been dissatisfied with what they have purchased and in all cases I gladly accepted a return and refunded the buyers money.

  A while back I got a wild hair and had some money to spend. I decided I wanted a nickel era open car to enjoy. I searched, got advice on this forum, and even went and looked at a few cars. I'm ultimately glad that I did not go out and purchase such a car on a whim, I no doubt would not have been happy. My inability to service such a car myself or obtain parts as well as the slow speed would have made for a less than satisfying experience. I'm glad I realized this BEFORE I made a purchase. 

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What ChudWah said is correct, there is a fair bit of cynicism on this thread. There are some modern mythologies that contribute to that cynicism, however. One of them is, "the customer is always right."

 

The spirit of that idea has been corrupted by some people who take it literally. Customers are not always right, they're very often wrong because of a lack of knowledge or expertise or some personal problem. I believe the phrase was originally intended intended to convey this idea: The customer is the one who pays the bills and therefore always deserves a great deal of respect. But respect - like most types of good will - can't be unilateral. It must be reciprocated, to one degree or another, between buyer and seller.

 

I understand that people who are spending a lot of money on merchandise want to do so with confidence. They want the seller to stand behind the expensive items they sell. And give a full refund when need be, as when there's a definable problem with the item. That's moral and proper.

 

But there is also an idea that's called the "deal." What does it mean when two people strike a deal? Is the seller the only one who has to live up to a transaction? Imagine this scenario: a dealer sells a car or whatever to a person...then shows up two weeks later at the buyer's doorstep and says, "I changed my mind. Here's your money back...now give me back my item!"

 

Would you as a buyer feel like you were being treated unfairly if that happened to you? Understand that sellers feel a little bit of that when the item they've sold the customer has no problem, but the buyer still wants to undo the deal.

 

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