Interesting EV article

[auburnseeker]

Interesting Electric vehicle  article that seems to touch on concerns many of us have expressed. 

 

 

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2020/12/29/electric_vehicles_and_their_drawbacks_654808.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=mixi&utm_campaign=realclearpolitics

 

 

 

 

[Uncle_Buck]

Besides the extra cost to purchase an EV and the larger carbon footprint, the greatest drawback by far will be what to do with all those hours spent waiting while one’s car is charging.

 

It has already happened on a small scale - stick ups, theft and vandalism.  

 

So one thing EV owners can do is learn all over again what it takes to be ‘shotgun’ on a stage coach, just like in a John Wayne western, providing some level of ‘security’ while sitting around for hours in unfamiliar surroundings - a thugs favorite target.

 

Yee-ha !!  🤠

 

[46 woodie]

I have read several similar articles and I really think that both the government and auto manufacturers are moving too fast in trying to eliminate gasoline powered cars. We really need the technology to make bigger strides in driving time, how long a battery will last and faster charging time. They also need to have every car made, come with a universal charging plug. They also need to address the fact that charging stations will need to be powered by fossil fuel powered generating stations, the more chargers there are the more fuel they will consume. Initial high purchase cost of the vehicle and the replacement cost of the battery is a big expense. New gas powered cars are running cleaner and more efficient than ever, with many new cars getting better than 35 mpg. For our government to make unrealistic mandates to try to eliminate all fossil fuel powered cars by 2035 is just unrealistic.

[Restorer32]

What about road use taxes?  Road construction, repair and maintenance is now funded by taxes on every gallon of gasoline you buy. How will this tax be calculated and collected on EVs?

[joe_padavano]

29 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

What about road use taxes?  Road construction, repair and maintenance is now funded by taxes on every gallon of gasoline you buy. How will this tax be calculated and collected on EVs?

 

Many have proposed transitioning from a gasoline tax to a mileage-based tax (or some combination of mileage and vehicle weight, which is really what tears up roads). Ironically, the most vocal opposition appears to be from the people who would most benefit from such a change (ie, the non-EV owners). Go figure.

[auburnseeker]

They might be objecting because as we all know the tax will end up being greater in some way than the current gas tax.  No way a politician is not going to milk the new cash cow for all they can and easier to start it on the high end than to jack up what's there.  It will be written in such a way to make it sound like everybody is saving while it will actually cost them more.  

Kind of like every time ebay comes out with a new selling program that will save sellers money,  but they somehow always end up spending more.  

Besides road repair I can imagine a huge part of that tax will be spent on charging stations and we all know anything done under govt contract is double what it is in the private sector. 

[joe_padavano]

4 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

They might be objecting because as we all know the tax will end up being greater in some way than the current gas tax.  No way a politician is not going to milk the new cash cow for all they can and easier to start it on the high end than to jack up what's there.  It will be written in such a way to make it sound like everybody is saving while it will actually cost them more.  

Kind of like every time ebay comes out with a new selling program that will save sellers money,  but they somehow always end up spending more.  

Besides road repair I can imagine a huge part of that tax will be spent on charging stations and we all know anything done under govt contract is double what it is in the private sector. 

 

So you'd rather subsidize EVs under the current gas tax?

[auburnseeker]

I don't want to subsidize them at all.  Let everything succeed or fail on it's own.  Gas or Electric. Some will say well that financed the road system for defense originally.  That I agree with.  I don't see a huge value to EV's when considering the overall security of the nation, unless we were importing a huge amount of our energy.  Which we aren't as of now but looks like on the horizon things may drastically change and not for the sake of running out of hte raw materials. 

[Pfeil]

Besides the extra cost to purchase an EV and the larger carbon footprint, the greatest drawback by far will be what to do with all those hours spent waiting while one’s car is charging.

 

Well, the population is going to increase with all that extra time on peoples hands.

[padgett]

Gasoline taxes pay for roads. EVs do not have road taxes...yet.

Article talked about having a fast charger at home. Makes sense except my first house had a 60A service. Current house has 150A about 1/3 goes to the AC, anyone have a 200A service ?

 

Artcle talked about a 50kw as a "smaller" fast charger. That is over 200A @240vac. Right. Home unit is probably smaller, about the same as home AC. If before electric bill is around $200/mo in Florida, expect $400 with nightly charging. An no road taxes...yet.

 

Wonder what an EV "float" charger would look like...

 

ps when I had an RV or travel trailer had a toolbox full of 120v and 240v adapter cables to have AC wherever I went. Sounds like an EV will need the same.

[Pfeil]

59 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Many have proposed transitioning from a gasoline tax to a mileage-based tax (or some combination of mileage and vehicle weight, which is really what tears up roads). Ironically, the most vocal opposition appears to be from the people who would most benefit from such a change (ie, the non-EV owners). Go figure.

 

That's not going to be problem. Manufacturers and government have already worked that out. The cars will be in constant communication talking to MVD / DMV for how many miles  driven for road tax purposes.

[George Cole]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Many have proposed transitioning from a gasoline tax to a mileage-based tax (or some combination of mileage and vehicle weight, which is really what tears up roads). Ironically, the most vocal opposition appears to be from the people who would most benefit from such a change (ie, the non-EV owners). Go figure.

That's because we know the gas tax will never go away.  The mileage tax will be an add-on where we will be taxed double...so we'll still be subsidizing the EVs.

[TerryB]

Most newer houses in the northeast have 200A service. 
PA has already introduced a plan to charge a fee for road maintenance in the annual auto registration renewal for totally electric vehicles.  With the advent of new fast charging technology and charging stations the time to charge is greatly reduced.  Many EV users charge enough to get their running around done without waiting for a full charge if it’s not a high speed charging station, just like many of us don’t fill our gas tanks every time we stop for gas.  VW like Tesla has been investing in charging technology and increasing the availability of charging stations.  
 

Overall the technology behind batteries is changing rapidly and the use of on board computers in the car can maximize the distance traveled just like the similar use in gas cars has improved travel range and fuel economy.  If you are following EV vehicle development the next big player is Nio from China.  Their reported travel distances and charge times are on par or better than Tesla, assuming their numbers are real.  Nio stock value is right up there with other tech companies.  It’s going to be a time of rapid change in the next 5 to 10 years.  Conventional auto will still be around but they will be sharing the road with more all electric vehicles.  Tesla sold nearly 500,000 EVs in 2020.  A new Tesla factory is under construction in Austin Texas so their number will continue to grow.  A segment of the population wants this technology, just like they want smartphones and computers.  

[TerryB]

8 minutes ago, George Cole said:

That's because we know the gas tax will never go away.  The mileage tax will be an add-on where we will be taxed double...so we'll still be subsidizing the EVs.

Not entirely true, states, and PA in particular are panning to add fees to EV registration.  

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I have read several similar articles and I really think that both the government and auto manufacturers are moving too fast in trying to eliminate gasoline powered cars. We really need the technology to make bigger strides in driving time, how long a battery will last and faster charging time. They also need to have every car made, come with a universal charging plug. They also need to address the fact that charging stations will need to be powered by fossil fuel powered generating stations, the more chargers there are the more fuel they will consume. Initial high purchase cost of the vehicle and the replacement cost of the battery is a big expense. New gas powered cars are running cleaner and more efficient than ever, with many new cars getting better than 35 mpg. For our government to make unrealistic mandates to try to eliminate all fossil fuel powered cars by 2035 is just unrealistic.

 

I agree with you that Gov. and manufacturers are moving too fast. Too fast to understand from a resources and pollution point of view what going green is all about. Mark Mills lays it out pretty clear in his article. " What's Wrong with Wind and Solar". I URGE YOU ALL TO LOOK IT UP.

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[George Cole]

7 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Not entirely true, states, and PA in particular are panning to add fees to EV registration.  

Additional registration fees won't address the issue of miles driven, which correlates to highway usage.  I would love to pay a one-time fee when I register cars, and never have to pay gas taxes again.  Will PA and other states offer the same one-time fee to us?  Of course not.  So us gas guzzlers will still be subsidizing EVs.  The registration fee is only a band-aid fix to the symptoms, not a correction of the problem.

[TerryB]

Manufacturers are moving fast so that they too can get a piece of the investment money that’s been thrown at other EV manufacturers.  Look at Tesla’s current stock valuation.  The investment market seems less concerned than we do at the limitations of EV ownership.  If you want some of that investment money you have to tell the world you are an active player in that game.

[TerryB]

PA has not passed a road use tax yet, it has been talked about for years, long before EVs showed up.  Their only quick way to get money without affecting gasoline cars is an annual registration surcharge.

[wws944]

A number of states have already been adding an extra EV fee on the annual car registration.  Here in Kalifornia, it is $150/year.

[wws944]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Gasoline taxes pay for roads. EVs do not have road taxes...yet.

Article talked about having a fast charger at home. Makes sense except my first house had a 60A service. Current house has 150A about 1/3 goes to the AC, anyone have a 200A service ?

 

Artcle talked about a 50kw as a "smaller" fast charger. That is over 200A @240vac. Right. Home unit is probably smaller, about the same as home AC. If before electric bill is around $200/mo in Florida, expect $400 with nightly charging. An no road taxes...yet.

 

Wonder what an EV "float" charger would look like...

 

ps when I had an RV or travel trailer had a toolbox full of 120v and 240v adapter cables to have AC wherever I went. Sounds like an EV will need the same.

 

Almost all EV charging is done at home.  It is like your cell phone.  Plug it in when you get home at night and wake up the next morning with a 'full tank'.  All plug-in cars have a built in charging system.  The in-car charger in my Model 3 can actually do 48A max.  Some older Teslas could be configured with up to 80A (20kW) charging.  Some people who don't drive much get away with plugging into a simple 120V 15A (12A continuous) receptacle.  Others do higher power connections.  I have a NEMA 14-50 (120/240V 50A max/40A continuous) setup on one side of my house, and a 6-30 (240V 30A max/24A continuous) setup in my garage.

 

DC Fast Charging makes road trips feasible.  The 50 kW DCFCs that were installed for early Nissan Leafs and others are usable, but not great.  Much better are the Tesla Superchargers that range from 72 kW "urban Superchargers", to the huge number of Version 2 150 kW Superchargers, and the more recent Version 3 250 kW Superchargers.  In the non-Tesla world, Electrify America (funded by VW dieselgate settlement dinero) DCFCs are typically 150kW and in some cases 350kW (for 800V architecture cars like the Taycan.)  Others, like EVgo, Chargepoint, and Greenlots have DCFCs that are generally between 50-150 kW.

 

The real missing puzzle piece is for those who can't charge at home - like apartment dwellers.  A lot of workplaces offer their employees free charging as a perq - which helps.  Increasingly, rental property owners should look at offering some sort of outlets for their EV owning tenants as a benefit as well.  Also look for building codes to change to require new housing developments to at least 'rough in' wiring for EVs.  It has already happened here.

 

As far as RV parks go, they can and do provide for a secondary/tertiary way of charging on road trips.  I've used a few of them myself.  The "50 amp" NEMA 14-50 is also the standard power connection for large RVs.  I also carry "30 amp" TT-30, "20 amp" 5-20, and "15 amp" 5-15 adapters in my mobile charging kit.  Some RV park owners are very happy to let EV owners use their electrical facilities, others are hostile.  Some want a full days fee, and some will do it by the hour.  They really haven't figured it all out yet.  At the rate the DCFC charging networks are expanding, I guess they won't have to.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

Gasoline taxes pay for roads.

Not in Canada for decades.  The tax collected is many times the amount returned to the Provinces to build/repair roads.  Just another place for the big guys to circumvent the intent of their own rules and policies.

[Restorer32]

I am an elected Councilman here in a small town in PA. Every year we receive "Liquid Fuels Tax Money" from the state to use to plow or otherwise maintain our streets.  We have less than 5 miles of streets and roads in our small down and we receive about $38k each year. 

[TerryB]

My son helped design your Model 3.  So the secret is out, I follow EVs because i have a degree in Electrical Engineering Technology and enjoy learning how new technology is evolving and my son is a mechanical design engineer for Tesla.  He used to go to car shows with me and be out in my garage when I was working on stuff.  He is also an Eagle Scout. Now he is way beyond anything I ever did.  

 

[JimKB1MCV]

  Heres what appears to be in the pipeline re EV road taxes, at least here in Maine.

https://www.hybridcars.com/maine-says-ev-hybrid-owners-dont-pay-fair-share-road-tax/

 

[TerryB]

Makes sense to have a EV fee when no gas tax is collected.  The hybrid fee is new info for me, they still use gasoline and pay taxes on it.  It’s like a penalty for getting 60 mpg.  That one needs a little more investigation as that thinking could be carried over to cars getting over 40mpg for example.  

[Daves1940Buick56S]

2 hours ago, wws944 said:

 

Almost all EV charging is done at home.  It is like your cell phone.  Plug it in when you get home at night and wake up the next morning with a 'full tank'.  All plug-in cars have a built in charging system.  The in-car charger in my Model 3 can actually do 48A max.  Some older Teslas could be configured with up to 80A (20kW) charging.  Some people who don't drive much get away with plugging into a simple 120V 15A (12A continuous) receptacle.  Others do higher power connections.  I have a NEMA 14-50 (120/240V 50A max/40A continuous) setup on one side of my house, and a 6-30 (240V 30A max/24A continuous) setup in my garage.

 

DC Fast Charging makes road trips feasible.  The 50 kW DCFCs that were installed for early Nissan Leafs and others are usable, but not great.  Much better are the Tesla Superchargers that range from 72 kW "urban Superchargers", to the huge number of Version 2 150 kW Superchargers, and the more recent Version 3 250 kW Superchargers.  In the non-Tesla world, Electrify America (funded by VW dieselgate settlement dinero) DCFCs are typically 150kW and in some cases 350kW (for 800V architecture cars like the Taycan.)  Others, like EVgo, Chargepoint, and Greenlots have DCFCs that are generally between 50-150 kW.

 

The real missing puzzle piece is for those who can't charge at home - like apartment dwellers.  A lot of workplaces offer their employees free charging as a perq - which helps.  Increasingly, rental property owners should look at offering some sort of outlets for their EV owning tenants as a benefit as well.  Also look for building codes to change to require new housing developments to at least 'rough in' wiring for EVs.  It has already happened here.

 

As far as RV parks go, they can and do provide for a secondary/tertiary way of charging on road trips.  I've used a few of them myself.  The "50 amp" NEMA 14-50 is also the standard power connection for large RVs.  I also carry "30 amp" TT-30, "20 amp" 5-20, and "15 amp" 5-15 adapters in my mobile charging kit.  Some RV park owners are very happy to let EV owners use their electrical facilities, others are hostile.  Some want a full days fee, and some will do it by the hour.  They really haven't figured it all out yet.  At the rate the DCFC charging networks are expanding, I guess they won't have to.

All good points, but most people don't understand anything about electrical power generation beyond the sockets in their walls. For those that deal with these issues, some of the numbers you quoted should cause concern. A 250kW additional power load, even if for only 15 or 20 mins, will be noticed back at the gen plant directly on that branch. And plug in 4 vehicles at once and you will really create a bump! Consider that our nearest plant here in DC is at Dickerson and is currently totals a little over 300 MW when adding in the adjacent cogeneration facility. A sudden load of 1/300 of the total, while it may not seem like much, could be problematic in the summer peak hrs. And that is just 4 cars. When EVs get more numerous you will likely have a lot more than 4 vehicles using the FastCharge at once. Plug in 40 at once and you could create a brownout in the summer.

 

So the short term answer would obviously be limits on fast charging in times of heavy load. But if people are expecting this capability and they still end up having to wait a couple of hrs for a full charge they will be frustrated. Longer term, more generating facilities will be needed along with upgraded energy transmission infrastructure to support a greater number of EVs. It will be expensive and controversial as most folk don't want new plants nearby or overhead HV transmission lines. (No, you cannot bury them either. Besides the astronomical cost, Maxwell's Equations still apply and the max distance before bringing back to the surface to a substation is abt 30 miles.)

 

The additional amount of energy required for even 50% of all light vehicle-miles being by EV would be abt 3.7 x 10¹¹ kWh, or about 10% of the total of the current-year 4.1 x 10¹² kWh. That is a lot. (For the pedantic, I got the total vehicle-miles from the NTHSA and divided by 2 for 50% and divided again by 3 as that seems to be an accepted mi/kWh under avg driving.) Current renewable is about 7 x 10¹¹ with growth about 10%/yr. Since the duty cycle of wind and solar is not 100% this will mean more generating plants will be needed, probably natural gas fired.

 

I'm  not arguing against any of this, just saying we should go in with our eyes open and understand what will need to be undertaken.

[TerryB]

If 4 cars can disrupt the grid, how are new housing developments, shopping centers and manufacturing expansion handled as far as the need for additional capacity?  There needs to be capacity added somehow.  It may seem like a smarta$$ question but it’s something I do wonder about as we seem to endlessly expand to keep out economy buzzing.  I participated in a forum with our local energy supplier on how to lower consumption for residential customers but no one seems to mention how a whole new business park is going to get its energy needs met.

Edited January 11, 2021 by TerryB (see edit history)

[padgett]

ps around here an additional KWH is about 15c so even a 30KW (125A @ 240vac) for 4 hours, 22 days/mo = A Whole Bunch. Wonder if you could put an inductive coil on the roof and park under a power line.

[wws944]

29 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

All good points, but most people don't understand anything about electrical power generation beyond the sockets in their walls. For those that deal with these issues, some of the numbers you quoted should cause concern. A 250kW additional power load, even if for only 15 or 20 mins, will be noticed back at the gen plant directly on that branch. And plug in 4 vehicles at once and you will really create a bump! Consider that our nearest plant here in DC is at Dickerson and is currently totals a little over 300 MW when adding in the adjacent cogeneration facility. A sudden load of 1/300 of the total, while it may not seem like much, could be problematic in the summer peak hrs. And that is just 4 cars. When EVs get more numerous you will likely have a lot more than 4 vehicles using the FastCharge at once. Plug in 40 at once and you could create a brownout in the summer.

 

So the short term answer would obviously be limits on fast charging in times of heavy load. But if people are expecting this capability and they still end up having to wait a couple of hrs for a full charge they will be frustrated. Longer term, more generating facilities will be needed along with upgraded energy transmission infrastructure to support a greater number of EVs. It will be expensive and controversial as most folk don't want new plants nearby or overhead HV transmission lines. (No, you cannot bury them either. Besides the astronomical cost, Maxwell's Equations still apply and the max distance before bringing back to the surface to a substation is abt 30 miles.)

 

The additional amount of energy required for even 50% of all light vehicle-miles being by EV would be abt 3.7 x 10¹¹ kWh, or about 10% of the total of the current-year 4.1 x 10¹² kWh. That is a lot. (For the pedantic, I got the total vehicle-miles from the NTHSA and divided by 2 for 50% and divided again by 3 as that seems to be an accepted mi/kWh under avg driving.) Current renewable is about 7 x 10¹¹ with growth about 10%/yr. Since the duty cycle of wind and solar is not 100% this will mean more generating plants will be needed, probably natural gas fired.

 

I'm  not arguing against any of this, just saying we should go in with our eyes open and understand what will need to be undertaken.

 

I won't quibble with your numbers, but there are a lot of mitigating factors.  Some examples:

 

Most EV charging is done at home, at night, and at power levels somewhere between your wife's hair dryer and your central A/C.  With Time of Use (TOU) electrical rates, owners can be further encouraged to charge at times when it is most beneficial to the grid.  I've had TOU rates since we bought our house in the mid-1990s - as the previous owner had a kiln in the garage, and so the house came with the special meter.  At the time, peak rate was between noon and 6 PM - matching peak load on the grid.  However with so much solar being installed, on both sides of the meter, over the past few years the peak times have shifted to 3 PM to midnight. So I have the cars programmed to start charging at midnight to take advantage of the cheap rates.

 

High power DCFC is installed commercially.  (Not many homes in the US are fed with 480V three phase power.  Nor would many homeowners want to pay $$,$$$ for the corresponding charger electronics when it is never needed.)  As I'm sure you are aware, commercial power levels incur not only per kWh charges, but also "demand charges" based on peak requirements.  So the money is there for grid upgrades.

 

As EVs become more prevalent, there will be correspondingly less use of gas.  Thing about all the pumping and transportation of crude, refining (a massively energy intensive process), and more pumping and transportation of refined product that is no longer needed.

 

FWIW, both my plugins average about 4 miles/kWh.  Considering the cars they replaced, the difference in per mile cost is almost 4x less with the EVs.  And that's not even counting the power I generate with my solar system, nor the lack of things like oil and filter changes, hose and belt replacements, leaky seal repairs, etc that are inevitable with ICE cars.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

53 minutes ago, TerryB said:

If 4 cars can disrupt the grid, how are new housing developments, shopping centers and manufacturing expansion handled as far as the need for additional capacity?  There needs to be capacity added somehow.  It may seem like a smarta$$ question but it’s something I do wonder about as we seem to endlessly expand to keep out economy buzzing.  I participated in a forum with our local energy supplier on how to lower consumption for residential customers but no one seems to mention how a whole new business park is going to get its energy needs met.

Good question. The issue is that suddenly you are adding a 1 MW load. And then in 20 min it goes away. The housing developments etc have the same energy requirement but spread out in time. It's the instantaneous power not the energy.

[wws944]

29 minutes ago, padgett said:

ps around here an additional KWH is about 15c so even a 30KW (125A @ 240vac) for 4 hours, 22 days/mo = A Whole Bunch. Wonder if you could put an inductive coil on the roof and park under a power line.

 

You'll never be charging at 125A at home.  Some early Model S were optioned with dual 40A chargers, but Tesla stopped offering that several years ago.  Most all North American EVs are equipped with on-board chargers that can draw 32-48 amps max from the grid at 240V.  My Volt only has a 16A on-board charger.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

13 minutes ago, wws944 said:

 

I won't quibble with your numbers, but there are a lot of mitigating factors.  Some examples:

 

Most EV charging is done at home, at night, and at power levels somewhere between your wife's hair dryer and your central A/C.  With Time of Use (TOU) electrical rates, owners can be further encouraged to charge at times when it is most beneficial to the grid.  I've had TOU rates since we bought our house in the mid-1990s - as the previous owner had a kiln in the garage, and so the house came with the special meter.  At the time, peak rate was between noon and 6 PM - matching peak load on the grid.  However with so much solar being installed, on both sides of the meter, over the past few years the peak times have shifted to 3 PM to midnight. So I have the cars programmed to start charging at midnight to take advantage of the cheap rates.

 

High power DCFC is installed commercially.  (Not many homes in the US are fed with 480V three phase power.  Nor would many homeowners want to pay $$,$$$ for the corresponding charger electronics when it is never needed.)  As I'm sure you are aware, commercial power levels incur not only per kWh charges, but also "demand charges" based on peak requirements.  So the money is there for grid upgrades.

 

As EVs become more prevalent, there will be correspondingly less use of gas.  Thing about all the pumping and transportation of crude, refining (a massively energy intensive process), and more pumping and transportation of refined product that is no longer needed.

 

FWIW, both my plugins average about 4 miles/kWh.  Considering the cars they replaced, the difference in per mile cost is almost 4x less with the EVs.  And that's not even counting the power I generate with my solar system, nor the lack of things like oil and filter changes, hose and belt replacements, leaky seal repairs, etc that are inevitable with ICE cars.

Understand. First, I was talking about power required on fast charge. Spreading it out does mitigate that like I pointed out. And as far as the transpo of fuel, of course, but I was focusing on the increased load on the grid. Most of what you mentioned doesn't impact that. Shifting to EV will reduce the energy required but a lot of that is off-grid. At least some refineries generate their own power, for example.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Well I just got a flag about political posts. Let me be clear: this is not political, I don't care about how this is implemented, or not. What I am talking about is physics and engineering. Period.

[wws944]

6 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Well I just got a flag about political posts. Let me be clear: this is not political, I don't care about how this is implemented, or not. What I am talking about is physics and engineering. Period.

 

+1.  I've been a computer and tech nerd (and car lover) all my life.  And this EV stuff fun to talk about.

[TerryB]

It is exciting to discuss future automobile technology as we saw 100+ years ago electric autos were in the top sales position due to their simplicity of operation and ease to drive with only the short driving range and charging locations holding them back.  Now we see the range and charging as much less of an issue.
 

Over Christmas of 2019 my son was back here in PA and was able to get me a tour of the local Tesla service facility and to speak with the manager on their repair issues history.  A very quiet place compared to most repair facilities.  They were replacing the standard 12v battery on a Model S when I was there and checking for updates if the car needed it.  There is not much to routinely fix, the service manager said replacing brakes and tires was the most common repair and some wind noise issues as there is no engine noise to mask air leaks.

[padgett]

Well the Baker and the Citicar are both over 25 years old...

[ply33]

1 hour ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

All good points, but most people don't understand anything about electrical power generation beyond the sockets in their walls. For those that deal with these issues, some of the numbers you quoted should cause concern. A 250kW additional power load, even if for only 15 or 20 mins, will be noticed back at the gen plant directly on that branch. . . . Plug in 40 at once and you could create a brownout in the summer.

 

So the short term answer would obviously be limits on fast charging in times of heavy load. . . 

@wws944 Has good points:

25 minutes ago, wws944 said:

 

I won't quibble with your numbers, but there are a lot of mitigating factors.  Some examples:

 

Most EV charging is done at home, at night, and at power levels somewhere between your wife's hair dryer and your central A/C.  With Time of Use (TOU) electrical rates, owners can be further encouraged to charge at times when it is most beneficial to the grid.  I've had TOU rates since we bought our house in the mid-1990s - as the previous owner had a kiln in the garage, and so the house came with the special meter.  At the time, peak rate was between noon and 6 PM - matching peak load on the grid.  However with so much solar being installed, on both sides of the meter, over the past few years the peak times have shifted to 3 PM to midnight. So I have the cars programmed to start charging at midnight to take advantage of the cheap rates.

 

High power DCFC is installed commercially.  (Not many homes in the US are fed with 480V three phase power.  Nor would many homeowners want to pay $$,$$$ for the corresponding charger electronics when it is never needed.)  As I'm sure you are aware, commercial power levels incur not only per kWh charges, but also "demand charges" based on peak requirements.  So the money is there for grid upgrades.

 

As EVs become more prevalent, there will be correspondingly less use of gas.  Thing about all the pumping and transportation of crude, refining (a massively energy intensive process), and more pumping and transportation of refined product that is no longer needed.

 

FWIW, both my plugins average about 4 miles/kWh.  Considering the cars they replaced, the difference in per mile cost is almost 4x less with the EVs.  And that's not even counting the power I generate with my solar system, nor the lack of things like oil and filter changes, hose and belt replacements, leaky seal repairs, etc that are inevitable with ICE cars.

 

My plug-in hybrid gets about 4 miles/kWh. Looking at the specifications for current EV offerings it seems 3.5 to 4 mi/kWh is pretty typical. The newer more box like SUV EVs are pushing the efficiency down (into the lower 3s). Just because it is an EV doesn’t mean the same aerodynamics that applies to internal combustion don’t apply. Make a bigger boxy vehicle and it takes more energy to push it around.

 

The key thing is that the amount you will be charging each day is dependent on how many miles you drive each day and how efficient your vehicle is. Assuming a typical daily distance is 29 miles and you have an average efficiency EV (3.5 mi/kWh) you will need to put 11 to 12 kWh into your car. If you start charging at midnight and want to be ready to leave for work at 7AM you will need to be charging at 1.6 to 1.7 kW. At 120v that is 14 amps. The implication is that a Level 1 (120v charger) plugged into your current existing outlet in the garage will be sufficient for the average amount of driving. Putting a 240v Level 2 charger into your garage will only be needed if you drive more miles than average (which, with a normal distribution, will be about half the households).

 

The grid is basically configured for the current maximum loads. This is often for late afternoons and evenings in summer time with everyone running ACs. And the grid has traditionally had issues with rapidly changing loads (it takes time for boiler to heat up and a steam turbine to spin up or down). If everyone needed to fully charge their EVs everyday and started doing it between 5 and 6 PM the grid would have real problems. But that is not what is happening.

 

One thing I see on the solar and EV forums is the wide spread introduction of “time of use” (TOU) billing being implemented. In California all of the investor owned utilities are required to offer it (and some seem to require it) if you are putting a non-traditional load/supply onto the grid.

 

My local utility is San Diego Gas & Electric and we are on a TOU plan that makes it very, very attractive to only charge a car at night. If I charge the car in summer between 4 PM and 9 PM it will cost me $0.50/kWh, about $0.14/mi which in my plug-in hybrid is more costly per mile than buying gasoline. But if I set the timer on the car to start charging at midnight it will cost me $0.09/kWh, about $0.026/mi which is far cheaper per mile than gasoline. I ain’t dumb enough to pay 5 times more for failing to simply tell my car to charge after midnight. So get home and plug the car in and I am done. My car starts to charge at midnight (in my case on a 120v outlet using a Level 1 charger) and is ready for me to go about my way the next day with a “full tank” when I get up.

 

A few points on this:

• The actual load on the grid isn't the worst case scenario. Everyone with an EV isn’t going to be charging it from empty to full every day no more than everyone with an internal combustion vehicle is going to be filling their gas tanks from empty every day. Yes, you do it sometimes like when you are on a vacation trip. But not every day for every car. You have to look at averages here.
• The load on the grid can be moved fairly easily to where ever the utility decides it best fits. If there becomes an excess of solar power during spring and fall during late morning, they can discount the rates for those times and people with discretionary loads (with respect to timing) will move to use those discounted hours.
• Once you find that you don’t need to go to a gas station on a regular basis you find that you don’t really want to go to one at all. They are not the most pleasant places to be at. I haven’t charged at a public charger (costs more per mile than gasoline in my car) and I can imagine public charging stations would be less inviting than a gas station if only because you would need to spend more time there. But charging at home is incredibly painless.

All this is, of course, colored by my career in high tech and being a home owner. Apartment or condo dwellers will have a different take as will someone who isn’t into technology for the sake of technology. (By the way, a lot of my fascination with antique cars is because of the technology. It is very interesting to me to see how the engineers of the era solved hard problems with the materials, processes and knowledge they had at the time.)

[padgett]

Duke Power (central Florida) doesn't seem to care. If I plug something new in it is going to be about 15c per KWH. They used to have a Timeof-Service rate but was discontinued in 2010.

ps if gasoline price discussion is OK, then this should be. Am not political but also not afraid to call something stupid, stupid.

[Frank DuVal]

12 hours ago, padgett said:

anyone have a 200A service ?

Most any house built in Vepco (Now Dominion Energy) territory in the last 40 years! That's a lot of houses.😲

 

6 hours ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Good question. The issue is that suddenly you are adding a 1 MW load. And then in 20 min it goes away. The housing developments etc have the same energy requirement but spread out in time. It's the instantaneous power not the energy.

I can do that (1 MW) at work and not get any complaints. 1200 amps x 480 x sq rt of three. Our grid holds up fine. We have "portable" generators that can do 750 kW at 480 for projects away from the grid. What's a megawatt here and a megawatt there among friendly grids?🤔 Now if you get to 2,000 megawatts, now you are talking one power plant's capacity.

 

Interesting, as the Google search said North Anna was 903 mW per generator, but I remember the nameplate of unit one saying 1,200 mW. Must be some internal losses? Or they just don't run it hard.😉

[wws944]

17 hours ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Understand. First, I was talking about power required on fast charge. Spreading it out does mitigate that like I pointed out. And as far as the transpo of fuel, of course, but I was focusing on the increased load on the grid. Most of what you mentioned doesn't impact that. Shifting to EV will reduce the energy required but a lot of that is off-grid. At least some refineries generate their own power, for example.

 

It is all very interesting and evolving.

 

The peak charging power while using high power DCFC is only sustained for moments.  The max charging speed depends a lot of factors including battery pack size, specific battery chemistry, pack temperature, and State of Charge (SoC).  So when I pull up to a V3 250 kW Supercharger in my Model 3, if all the planets line up and I'm at a low SoC, I might come close to that 250 kW for a moment.  But generally I'll be charging at a lower rate.  As the SoC rises, the cars charging algorithms gradually "taper off" the charge rate - especially after about 80% charge.  It can take as long charging that last 10-20% as it did from 10% to 80%.  For this reason, experienced EV road trippers quickly learn to strategize their charging and never charge to full while on the road.

 

Teslas V2 Superchargers have max power of 150 kW.  But a subtle thing about them is that they "pair" two stalls together on a single set of charging electronics.  If you look closely at the Supercharger charging stands, they are numbered - like 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, etc.  If both stalls of the pair are in use, the power is divided between the two.  Generally speaking it isn't a huge problem because on average one of the two cars is in the tapering zone and charging at a lower speed anyway.  But again experienced road trippers will prioritize choosing a stall that isn't paired with another car.  (It is kinda like choosing a spot in the mens room...  LOL!)  The newer V3 Superchargers (250 kW max) are shared in sets of four, and don't suffer the same degradation.

 

I've charged at a few of the larger Supercharger sites here in Cal.  One, at a shopping center parking garage in Daly City (Daly City Supercharger - DC Fast Electric Car Charging - 3 Serramonte Center, Daly City, CA 94015 - Shopping Center - PlugShare), has 40 urban Supercharger stalls.  Urban Superchargers run at 72 kW max, so 40x72=2.88 mW max for the site.  That probably doesn't add much more than the shopping center and the various commercial properties in the same area.  Other urban Supercharger sites near here typically have 8 to 16 stalls, so the peak power drawn is much lower.

 

Another example is Kettleman City Supercharger - DC Fast Electric Car Charging - 27675 Bernard Drive, Kettleman City, CA 93239 - Shopping Center - PlugShare on Interstate 5.  It is a major stopping point between the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles.  It is also a 40 stall site (combination of V2 and V3) which also includes huge solar canopies and on-site battery storage.  The latter help shave peak use off the grid.  There is a near identical 40 stall site in Baker CA - between Vegas and LA.  And a recently opened 56 stall V3 site near the Firebaugh exit on I-5 - again on the highly traveled SF - LA corridor.  These also have solar canopies and on-site storage to keep power draw down during peak times.

 

Also realize that many EVs, especially those with relatively small battery packs literally can't charge at the speeds we are talking about above.  The Chevy Bolt EV is lucky to hit 55 kW max, the Leafs and i3s less than that.  Hyundai/Kia got into a tiff with Electrify America because EA was charging a higher per kWh price for cars that could charge at > 75 kW vs those that couldn't.  Upon connection, the Hyundais and Kias were reporting their max power at a little higher than 75 kW, but in reality the cars were charging at a lower rate for various reasons (e.g., temp, SoC, etc).  So the car owners were getting billed at much higher costs than they should have.  EA has more or less resolved the pricing issues.  But these are the sorts of things that are being worked through.