Jump to content

Buick straight 8 for straight 8 engine swap


gregleck

Recommended Posts

I've got a '37 Buick 46S Sport Coupe with a 248 straight 8, likely original to the car.  There is some serious internal problem going on.  Engine turned and started five years ago but there is problem deep in the engine - crankshaft, rods, piston - who knows?

 

Car has been held hostage due to a long running divorce - now five years and no end in sight, though I have been told by lawyers and court official to expect another 18 months.

 

However, I have been thinking of obtaining another straight 8 engine and having it rebuilt.  I am at the age where time is now more valuable to me than money.  I figure if I get a rebuilt engine, by the time it is ready I could have the car back, and "just drop the new engine in."  What could go wrong?

 

The engine I am looking at is a 1951 Buick 263 - with non-Babbited bearings, which makes it more attractive to me.  It's mated to a standard transmission in the donor car, and of course my '37 is standard transmission also.

 

Am I correct that the 263 engine swap for the 248 should be pretty straightforward?

 

 

 

 

 

DSCF3792.JPG

Edited by gregleck
typographical error (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Real handsome car you have! 

 

I may be wrong on the years, but i believe the later 1950+  263ci engines, used side motor mounts located in the middle'ish of the block  rather than a front timing cover mounting plate like the 1937 would have.  I'm sure its doable to build side mounts off of the frame to mount it, but sticking with the a slightly earlier 248 engine with the front mounting plate seems like it would be alot easier. The later mounting plates are shaped slightly different than the earlier horizontal ones that would sit directly on the frame, rather than in an engine cross member with slanted mounts. I believe the move from babbited bearings was around 1948? and if you are rebuilding the engine, locating some later connecting rods with insert bearings could be something to consider.   I have a 1947 engine in my 1937 Century, and had a hard time finding the correct earlier plate, so i modified the later one to work, but if you are swapping engines, you could swap your plate over as well if you are not able to find another one. 

Edited by Stooge (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Side front mounts from 1948.

My understanding 1937 front plate will bolt to the 1951 engine.  Does for 1939

May need to use the 1937 bell housing to have the rear mounts and transmission fit up

This conversion has been done many times before

Edited by 1939_Buick (see edit history)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, 1939_Buick said:

 

My understanding 1937 front plate will bolt to the 1951 engine.  Does for 1939

 

That's one that i wasnt sure of, if the earlier plates would fit under the timing chain and cover of the later side mount style engines

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest that it is likely fairly easy to break the original engine free. That would probably be easier than doing the swap. The basic process would be to pull the plugs, add solvent to the cylinders and allow them to soak for several days. When you pull the plugs, also pull the valve cover and push rod cover and make sure the pushrods and valvetrain are lubricated and free. Remove the flywheel inspection cover and you can likely use a small pry bar to turn the engine by prying on the flywheel ring gear against the side of the bell housing. If you want to go a bit further, you should also pull the oil pan so you can easily acces the underside of the pistons. You may find that there is some surface rust one or more cylinder walls (especially if the car has been stored in an non climate controlled location.) 

 

Dave Tacheny has told me that he has never found a seized Buick straight 8 engine that he could not break free. A friend recently purchased a car that had been sitting in a non climate controlled storage space for 16 years. We pulled the oil pan on that one, and found a bit of surface rust on one cylinder wall. A little bit of solvent and wire brushing that cylinder wall along with the previous solvent soaking and the prybar broke it free. It was running as good as new after just a short time due to using this process. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MCHinson said:

I would suggest that it is likely fairly easy to break the original engine free.

Engine is free already, or at least it did a year ago.  As part of the divorce the car had to be valued and the evaluator said the car cranked but would not turn over.  Not surprising considering it was last started over 4 years ago.

 

But I do know there is a major problem and the engine needs to be taken at least partially apart to diagnose it.  But I cannot do anything with the car until the divorce is over, and that is going to take at least another year and a half.  That's why I thought I would move ahead with plans to build a new engine now.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please explain what symptom(s) lead you to say, "there is a major problem and the engine needs to be taken at least partially apart to diagnose it". Also, If you need an engine, it would be much easier and probably cheaper to simply get the correct year engine to replace it. I suspect Dave Tacheny would have one if you need one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of loud noise.  Exhaust manifold is also cracked.

 

Someone who rebuilds prewar engines took a look at it - put a long piece of wood against the block to use as a listening aid and the knocking seemed to originate down in the crankcase.

 

I purchased a lot of odds and ends from Dave back in 2014-2015.  Is he still active?  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You will need a 1937 intake-exhaust manifold as intakes starting from 1939 have a step. Repro exhaust manifold are made

To build a new engine for your car, based on a later block/head, will need various parts from a 1937 S40 engine

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, gregleck said:

I purchased a lot of odds and ends from Dave back in 2014-2015.  Is he still active?  

 

Yes Dave is still selling 1936-1941 Buick parts. You can probably buy a good 1937 engine from him cheaper than you can rebuild another one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

During World War II many prewar Buicks were driven until the engines wore out. After the war Buick designed straight eights to double as replacements for worn out engines in prewar models and for use in new model post war cars. A 1951 263 will work in a 37 special by using a 37 timing chain motor mount and possibly the bell housing. Be sure the crank in the 51 is not for an automatic transmission. Too bad you live so far away, I may have a 37 short block.

                                       Thanks

                                           Leif  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you will you  decide to swap it,here my experiences :

I had done it too on my '38.

The old Frontplate will work fine on the 363,also the Flywheel (attention here,marking the location on the crank!,it will fit in all positions if you don't mark it).

All Aggregates from the 248 will fit,(also my better looking small '38 Fuelpump),

except the Waterpump,Thermostat housing and its tubes, that you need with the Engine.

The 2 upper threads from the 263 sidemounts you must block with its srews, because they goes into crankcase,and starts otherwise to leak.

May be you have problems with the position of the crankcase ventilation tube on passenger side, the rocker cover from the 248 looks like similar but doesn't fit to the 263.

But this is peanuts ..;-)..

 

M2C

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/11/2021 at 3:33 PM, 1967 - 1997 Riviera said:

 

Whatever you do, please do not scrap the engine that is in the car now.

Wouldn't dream of it.

 

Once it is out I will tear it down to see what happened, then have it rebuilt.

 

I actually found a 1937 248 engine.  It is running but I will still take it apart to replace the babbited pistons and use metal insert bearings.

 

Thanks to all for the tips and tricks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I have a 1952 263 engine inn my 37 Special. For front mounts I just welded ears onto the front engine plate and then used the flathead Ford mount cushions. With the mounts spread further apart there is little torque movement when engaging the clutch. On the rear I drilled and tapped the bell housing so a short piece of angle could be used to mate to the factory rear engine mounts. Zero trouble in 25 years. Picture shows ears and mount cushions (seen under the alternator).

Straight 8 a-c mount 002.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/7/2021 at 2:16 PM, Stooge said:

Real handsome car you have! 

 

I may be wrong on the years, but i believe the later 1950+  263ci engines, used side motor mounts located in the middle'ish of the block  rather than a front timing cover mounting plate like the 1937 would have.  

 

You will be removing the side motor mounts from the 1951 engine and tossing them, and attaching your old front motor mounts to the engine. People replaced engines all the time in those days. Keep one of the bolts from the side mount on the right side, it's a great place to put the ground strap from the battery.

 

I had a 263 in my 1940 Buick. They are stronger and it's easier to get things like points and oil filters than for a 1937.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I vote to use the 263 engine.   I got a 263 and had it rebuilt (like new ).   Dave T might have a earlier front plate that will have correct mounting position.    Easy swap.  The 263 I got had a earlier bell housing  (matched my 38  coupe).    Dave can help you there.   If nothing else,  my 263 crank bearings were well within clearances.   Replacing the rod bearing with new bearings will take up what little wear on the crank.   Of course,  measure JIC .   I ended up rebuilding my 263,  as s/n wise it was a '53' engine - last of the straight 8's.   .    Using the '37' manifolds is no sweat.   Plugging the old 263 motor mount bolt holes gives you at least one  (on right side) to ground the block to the frame.    I did use a fiberglass insulation strip around the WATER PUMP LINE that goes from the pump to the block.    Insulating that pipe corrects for IR energy coming from the exhaust pipe.    This keeps the water from gaining any heat on its way to the block.   Note how close the exhaust manifold is to the water pump line.   Insulating the small portion of the exhaust pipe will give you uneven heating of the exhaust manifold.   Can cause possible cracking.   Let it be normal and correct heat gain to the cool water piping for the block.     I also installed over drive.   With the original 4.44 gear,  this gives you a 3.11 ratio for road travel.   I cruise 2350 rpm and 65 mph all day.   My last trip was +1800 miles of easy driving ,  some on Inter-State speeds.    I'm putting  one in my '35-58' Vicky.   That goes from a 4.88 down to a 3.41 rear ratio.   Easy  on the engine at 60 mph on the road this way.   Lloyd Young's machinist  (Glen) is still doing Lloyds Borg Warner over drives in Circleville OH.   614-571-4908.    With Dave T helping,  you can have it ready to swap and it leaves you with a '37,  248 to sell'.    You can tell the appraiser that the engine needs work and we all know a rebuild runs around 6-7 k$.   Ask anybody who has had it done today.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/7/2021 at 8:59 PM, MCHinson said:

I would suggest that it is likely fairly easy to break the original engine free. 

 

Dave Tacheny has told me that he has never found a seized Buick straight 8 engine that he could not break free. A friend recently purchased a car that had been sitting in a non climate controlled storage space for 16 years. We pulled the oil pan on that one, and found a bit of surface rust on one cylinder wall. A little bit of solvent and wire brushing that cylinder wall along with the previous solvent soaking and the prybar broke it free. It was running as good as new after just a short time due to using this process. 

I have one that is not likely to be broke free, it’s been sitting for untold years without a head or hood for cover in the great outdoors. That’s why I had to find a donor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

Here is an update.

 

1.  Divorce proceedings now past EIGHT YEARS (no kids involved, by the way).  Procedural rules of the court state a report is issued after 30 days of the last hearing.  Last hearing was NINE MONTHS ago and no report.  Lawyer knows of three other cases which have been waiting over two years for the report.  All in front of the same individual, who apparently does not even work for the court anymore.  No one wants to complain for fear of retribution.  And apparently higher ups in the court have no way to pressure this individual since she is no longer employed by them.  To top it off, wife, who had nothing ever to do with the car, has put in a claim for possession.  Merely out of spite.

 

2.  Bought a 1937 248 engine from Dave Tacheny.  He was told it was running when taken out of the car.  After arrival, had someone open it up.  The valve train is in pretty rough condition with 3 severely bent push rods and a fourth that was broken & welded back together.  The rocker arm shaft is badly worn and appears to have been assembled wrong at some point in the past, which likely caused the bent pushrods.    I put down a $4,000 deposit for a rebuild.  It is now two years later, engine apart but pretty much no progress.  Have heard nothing in a year.  Was told to expect about $10,000 bill, total.

 

3.  Bid on a rebuilt 248 cid engine from a 1949 Buick Super, thinking it might be easier to drop it in instead of waiting for the rebuild.  Dropped out of the bidding at $3700.  Still don't have the car, though, so just as well.

 

4.  Am continuing to look for engines, though.  Will a 1953 263 engine swap in to 37 Buick Special?  I am guessing yes, as long as the modifications (mounting plate, peripherals, etc) are taken care of.

248 bent push rods.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Yes on the 263.

 

  Someone is shafting you!   I am an old fart and could do the engine for a LOT less and in a month , assuming no big snags.

 

  Good luck.

 

  Ben

Yes @Ben Bruce aka First Born, you could do it for a lot less as you would not be paying yourself the current going rate. Now in all honesty the timing is ridiculous, but the price may not be.  It really depends on the work and parts required for the rebuild.  I had my 37 320 completely rebuilt including pistons, rings, valves, guides, boring, crank and cam grinding, rod modification for insert bearings and smaller things I can not remember. This was done by a retired professional engine man in my town that the best trust. The rebuild took about 3 months including the out of shop work. The final cost was around $9000 if I remember right and he did not charge normal shop rates as he worked out of his personal shop on his home property.  So $10000 is not way out of line depending.....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Motor mounts are NOT the same.  Will need to make some other modifications as well.

 

However, I spoke with Dave Tacheny this morning who told me the engine in question, from a '53 Buick Special, was probably from a car with factory automatic transmission.   It currently has a flex plate mounted.  Dave said it COULD be swapped into a '37 Buick Special with standard transmission, but the crankshaft would have to be re-engineered and modified.  NOT a simple swap.

 

And yes, I am being given the shaft, but not by the engine rebuilder.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shootey said:

Does a 263 just drop into the place of a 248?  Same motor mounts, etc.?

No.  The '37 used front motor mounts .  The plate to which they are mounted has to be changed over from the '37 to the later engine.  This applies to all 248/263  1948 and later.  Pretty easy.

 

  Ben

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A general rule of thumb used to be was $1,000/hole.  I am sure it is more now. 

 

Again, If you are just going to do rings & hone the cylinders, grind & surface the head a lot cheaper. 

 

Redoing babbit bearing could easily run $125-$175 or more / rod/ main.

 

You can do the math.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you thought that maybe you're throwing good money (and time) after bad. Beautiful car but there are lots of prewar Buick (and Cadillac) coupes out there. And since Buicks are a little less mainstream, they are out there for less money than you would think. Maybe all this just isn't worth the headaches. Like you said, time is becoming more important than anything. Find yourself another Cream Puff (that runs) and move on. You can always come back to this one if and when everything settles out. 

Edited by Skidplate (see edit history)
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sound advice, but ...

 

... I know this car inside and out, have spent hundreds of hours redoing things and adding all sorts of original parts and period correct aftermarket parts.  Plus, have been looking for another one for the last eight years - Hemmings, Bring a Trailer, Craigslist etc - and not very common, at least the model and condition I am searching for.

 

Most collector cars which are customized to the owner's taste and level end up being underwater in terms of cost recovery.  They are, after all, just inanimate collections of metal, glass, rubber, etc.  But they become imbued with experiences, memories, and emotions that draw us to them and value them more than the economic sum of their parts.  If that were not the case, forums like this would not exist.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...