1966 Bel Air 2dr sedan with 396 and 3-speed on the column - rare?

[JonW]

I found that Chevy built 83,000 2dr sedans in their full-size line for 1966. I'm just wrapping up a deal on a 1966 Bel Air with a 396 and 3-speed on the column. I'm wondering if that is a rarity or not. Supposedly the Maine state police used this exact model car in 1966.

[JonW]

This is one of the seller's pics. I don't have the car yet, so no pics.

 

[joe_padavano]

The column shifted three speed was the base equipment trans in most GM cars in the 1960s, even full size cars like the Delta 88s. This is another case of rarity does not always equate to desirable.  

[padgett]

Know there was a 396 2bbl for trailer towing but thought that was later.

[JonW]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The column shifted three speed was the base equipment trans in most GM cars in the 1960s, even full size cars like the Delta 88s. This is another case of rarity does not always equate to desirable.  

I have no illusions about it being desirable. I was just curious.

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, JonW said:

I found that Chevy built 83,000 2dr sedans in their full-size line for 1966. I'm just wrapping up a deal on a 1966 Bel Air with a 396 and 3-speed on the column. I'm wondering if that is a rarity or not. Supposedly the Maine state police used this exact model car in 1966.

The Tennessee State Patrol used Biscaynes. They were 396 with automatic transmission.

 

Craig

 

[TerryB]

Never saw a 1966 combo of that engine in anything but Impala or Caprice or station wagon.  It would sure be an unusual car if it’s legitimate.

[Joe in Canada]

I bought a 1966 with a 396 automatic about 15 years ago out of New Mexico that was an x police car. Still had the holes in the roof and tops of fenders. I lost interest in the newer cars and sold it to a fellow from Nova Scotia and he hauled it home. If you watch Easy Rider you will see one sitting across the road in the restaurant take also a police car. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Jon, "rarity" is a much overused term, but I 

would say it is indeed rare.  It's rare just as a

Bel Air 2-door sedan, unmodified, regardless

of engine and transmission.

 

Collectors tend to gravitate toward glamorous

or sporty cars and overlook the many other 

models.  You're FAR more likely to see Impala SS

hardtops and convertibles than the model you picture.

Original production numbers don't tell the story

any more, and many once-common models are

now overlooked and exceptionally hard to find.

 

My parents had a 1965 Bel Air 2-door sedan--one

year different from yours--and I have never come across

an unmodified example for sale.  If you get it, keep it

stock and please preserve it for future generations.

[8E45E]

12 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

My parents had a 1965 Bel Air 2-door sedan--one

year different from yours--and I have never come across

an unmodified example for sale.  If you get it, keep it

stock and please preserve it for future generations.

Here's one:  1965 Chevrolet Bel Air 2-Door Sedan 327 4-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $17,250 on January 15, 2020 (Lot #27,040) | Bring a Trailer

 

Craig

[Frank DuVal]

I have not seen a 396 3 speed, but have seen a 1966 Biscayne 2 door sedan with a 427 and a 3 speed back in the late 70s. Sad, it was being scrapped from minor body damage and the engine was going into another project!

 

GM got first gear synchronized for 1966 in the three speed transmissions. OK, I'm waiting for the experts to say, no, only Chevrolet. Odd too, in that Corvair got it in 1966 along with the rest of Chevrolet lineup.

 

And I have seen several Impalas/Caprice wagons with the 396 and a factory 4 speed. Never for sale when I was looking for one!🙄

 

On the other end of the spectrum, I bought (saved from a guy who scrapped cars in Richmond) a 1966 Impala 2 door hardtop with the 250 cu in six and Powerglide. I sold it to a friend who installed a 327 and drove it for several years. Almost perfect body and interior, engine was tired.

 

Another 66 tidbit, the Impala came in a 4 door sedan, but not a 2 door sedan, only 2 door hardtops. Shall we start the sedan vs coupe discussion here? That's as hot a topic on Corvair forums as ground pin up or down on receptacles (here in the US) on electrician forums! I say there were no Corvair coups, as they all had rear seats!😆

 

1966 was also the year of standard backup lamps and standard outside rear view mirrors. 

 

Back to original post, GREAT CAR!  I always liked that blue. Wished my Biscayne wagon was that metallic blue on the lower and white on top. Of course mine was all white.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

It's unusual for sure. Wouldn't be if it were a 4-speed or THM400.

 

It will probably scoot right sharply but with GM's notoriously wonky 3-speed column shift linkage it wouldn't have pulled off any speed shifts.

[rocketraider]

Frank, that's like a gorgeous 67 Caprice sedan here. One owner, low miles, 396 in Royal Plum inside and out. Lady owner went in a nursing home, her kids sold it to one of the local Nova freaks who yanked the 396 and THM400, pulled the 396 badges off the fenders and sent the rest to the scrapyard. That car was nice enough to have been at home on any AACA showfield. I never did like that guy.

[TerryB]

I bought a 1966 Chevy Caprice coupe in 1972 as I had taken a job that required a 110 mile round trip commute and I was sure my 1955 Chevy was not up to doing that every day.  The 66 had a 283 and auto trans that helped keep the gas bills to a minimum.  The unique roofline of the Caprice coupe made it a sharp car.

[joe_padavano]

From the 1966 Chevy full size dealer brochure:

 

 

[rocketraider]

That "special fully synchronized extra cost" 3-speed behind the big blocks makes me wonder if Chevrolet also used "Dearborn" HD 3-speeds same as Buick, Olds and Pontiac? Now wouldn't that be a hoot to find a Ford top-loader in a big block Chevy!

 

I've never personally seen a big block 3-speed big Chevrolet, so I have to believe they weren't common. With low installation rates, might have made economic sense to buy a suitable trans from Ford rather than spend R&D and tooling to produce them in-house. Worked for BOP.

[John348]

11 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Another 66 tidbit, the Impala came in a 4 door sedan, but not a 2 door sedan, only 2 door hardtops. Shall we start the sedan vs coupe discussion here? That's as hot a topic on Corvair forums as ground pin up or down on receptacles (here in the US) on electrician forums! I say there were no Corvair coups, as they all had rear seats!😆

 

 

The Impala two door sedan was dropped after 1961, both Biscayne and Belair two door sedans were through 1965. I don't know about 1966 on the Belair.

 

12 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I I say there were no Corvair coups, as they all had rear seats!😆

 

 

You are 100% correct, that is why they were called "sport coupes" just like opera coupes had the flip seats in the late 30's

 

14 hours ago, padgett said:

Know there was a 396 2bbl for trailer towing but thought that was later.

 

He never mentioned that there was a 2bbl in it, so......?

 

 

All of the police and other special fleet use vehicles were built under the direction of COPO. If you find a police car or taxi brochure they offered different equipment then  what was offered on the regular passenger cars. The car is unique and the 396 factor makes it desirable. As the owner of a two door Biscayne myself, they are interesting car, but draw a limited audiance

 

Good luck with it looks like a fun car

 

[John348]

16 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

That "special fully synchronized extra cost" 3-speed behind the big blocks makes me wonder if Chevrolet also used "Dearborn" HD 3-speeds same as Buick, Olds and Pontiac? Now wouldn't that be a hoot to find a Ford top-loader in a big block Chevy!

 

I've never personally seen a big block 3-speed big Chevrolet, so I have to believe they weren't common. With low installation rates, might have made economic sense to buy a suitable trans from Ford rather than spend R&D and tooling to produce them in-house. Worked for BOP.

 

In 1965 and 1966 Chevrolet installed a heavy duty Borg Warner 3 speed transmission on the big block cars, fully syncro-ed but also used in 1965 as well. The others used the Saginaw three speed, those transmissions were fully synchro-ed beginning in 1966

 

The heavy duty Borg Warner was known as the T-16, and ordered as the M-16 option

 

To answer the OP's original question, YES it is rare, but then again not many Biscaynes survived. Also rare that it still has the three speed in it. It would be a rather easy conversion, find the correct Muncie and a steering column, and maybe shorten the driveshaft and it is there

Edited January 1, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[John348]

1 minute ago, Mark I said:

John, 

 

Bel Air and Biscayne 2 door sedans continued through 1969. I have a 69 Bel Air 2 door sedan.

 

Mark

 

Thanks, after 64 things get fuzzy

[rocketraider]

Standard Catalog of American Cars 1946-75 indicates last full-size Chev 2-door Sedan was 1969 Biscayne/BelAir.

 

Info I have says 1969 big car 396 were all 2-barrel, which made about as much sense as Oldsmobile putting 2-barrels on big car 455s. But they did.

[padgett]

Idea behind the three-speed column shift by 66 was to have a "loss leader" with a low advertised price that hopefully no-one wanted. Most were expected to have base 6s or low compression V8s for which the torque-linited saginaw three and four speeds were fine. By 66 the Muncie 4-speed had replaced the B-W but did not have a 3-speed so big blocks have to go elsewhere.

 

Am curious which 396 it has, there were several.

 

Most two barrel big engines (also low compression) were mainly for trailer towing. Many people then did not trust automatics and the early Muncies were notorious for a weak input shaft (fixed by 66 but public had a long memory of things that broke (67 350 Chev, 70 455 Pontiac,...)

 

[John348]

10 minutes ago, padgett said:

. By 66 the Muncie 4-speed had replaced the B-W but did not have a 3-speed so big blocks have to go elsewhere.

 

Sorry, I think you need to check your information AGAIN....... and your theory of using the three speed as a "loss leader"  

Chevrolet departed from the Borg Warner T-10 four speeds in mid to late 1963 and the Muncie four speeds had to be introduced earlier than expected. Borg Warner had military contract commitments that might have effected production.  T-10s were used in other GM cars through the mid sixties, BUT NOT IN CHEVROLETS!!!! because those divisions required less units. 

 

Please.......stick with Pontiacs

[padgett]

Like I said, make a statement and people will come out of the woodwork to correct. Still say the early Muncie was easy to spot by the small input shaft and many spread their gutz all over the track. Three speeds stayed popular for a long time in roundy-round racing. Also said "by 66" (original topic) so where's the problem ?

Also by '70 there was the Saginaw four speed (in several versions from a 2.52 first to a 3.11 first) and Muncie had three different versions: M20, M21, and M22 but that was later, think 66 was the first year for the large shaft Muncie and think 66 also for the 4 speed Saginaw but that is from memory so no promises.

 

In early 70s was mainly in sporty car racing & Corvette was cheap enough for a GMI student on the GI Bill. Today I rely mostly on Bill Carroll's book and various service manuals & parts book plus Vince's green sheets but cannot rely on a '74 parts book for what was original in '70.

 

What problem do you have with "loss leader" ? That is what GM called them.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

That "special fully synchronized extra cost" 3-speed behind the big blocks makes me wonder if Chevrolet also used "Dearborn" HD 3-speeds same as Buick, Olds and Pontiac? Now wouldn't that be a hoot to find a Ford top-loader in a big block Chevy!

 

I've never personally seen a big block 3-speed big Chevrolet, so I have to believe they weren't common. With low installation rates, might have made economic sense to buy a suitable trans from Ford rather than spend R&D and tooling to produce them in-house. Worked for BOP.

 

Same thought I had, Glenn. I'm no Chebby expert, and the HD Muncie three speed didn't come out until the 1970 model year.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 

In 1965 and 1966 Chevrolet installed a heavy duty Borg Warner 3 speed transmission on the big block cars, fully syncro-ed but also used in 1965 as well. The others used the Saginaw three speed, those transmissions were fully synchro-ed beginning in 1966

 

The heavy duty Borg Warner was known as the T-16, and ordered as the M-16 option

 

To answer the OP's original question, YES it is rare, but then again not many Biscaynes survived. Also rare that it still has the three speed in it. It would be a rather easy conversion, find the correct Muncie and a steering column, and maybe shorten the driveshaft and it is there

 

Didn't know about the BW three speed, thanks for the info. As Glenn pointed out, the BOP divisions used the "Dearborn" top loader three speed in HD applications.

 

I will say, however, that we shouldn't confuse survival rate with production rarity. Any car from half a century ago is "rare" today. Rarity when new is what matters. Heck, GM made hundreds of thousands of B-body wagons from 1977-1990, but very few survive today. I wouldn't use the term "rare" on a vehicle with original production totals near a million.

 

Yes, the 3-on-the-tree cars were low production loss leaders mainly to allow the car companies to advertise as low an MSRP as possible. They were not desirable and few people bought them, thus low production numbers when new.

Edited January 1, 2021 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I stumbled onto a 66 four door hardtop once, I think it was an Impala.

It had a 427 with a three on the tree, That thing had the longest second gear of any car I have driven.

Probably why I had to bore it as the old guys grand son brought it home with a rattle. It had lost a wrist pin clip and the pin made it to the cylinder wall.

It didn't take long for the thieves to take that car away from me.

 

Now I'm bummed out thinking about it. But was a long time ago. One of the few GMs that this Mopar guy ever messed with.

[John348]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

What problem do you have with "loss leader" ? That is what GM called them.

 

I do not think any police package/fleet sale vehicle would falls into the "loss leader" category.  We are talking two different things, considering there is no advertised MSRP for a police vehicles, and the OP mentioned Maine Highway Patrol and the photo of the Tennessee Highway Patrol car, Yes, I agree that there were 'loss leaders' that would be a six cylinder biscayne with the saginaw three speed, not a big block with HD three speed. The manual three speed would be popular in a state like Maine, a lot of open country and a lot of snow! The two door pursuit vehicle is no useful in every state either.

 

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

I will say, however, that we shouldn't confuse survival rate with production rarity. Any car from half a century ago is "rare" today. Rarity when new is what matters. Heck, GM made hundreds of thousands of B-body wagons from 1977-1990, but very few survive today. I wouldn't use the term "rare" on a vehicle with original production totals near a million.

 

I agree with that but some cars just fall to normal attrition at a faster rate then others, but 83,000 is a fairly low number in the big picture of overall production. They had very little resale and thus they just got driven to the ground.  

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[cheezestaak2000]

the big change between 1965 and 1966 chevrolet was the thickness of the body sheet metal, which might be a factor in how many of each survived. i worked at the wilmington plant in 1966 and my job was putting the body side moulding clips on and there was a problem with the metal buckling on the bel aires since they had larger clips than the impalas. problem was solved by putting a heat lamp over the bin the clips were kept in

[padgett]

I remember seeing some "fleet sales" booklets with "special" prices. Prices were fixed and not "Suggested" so MSRP wouldn't apply.

[Joe in Canada]

I had a 66 396 Biscayne when I took this picture of a 427 4 speed at the Winter Nationals in Melbourne Florida a few years ago. See the national tags up front you know it is all correct.  We referred to them back in the day as sleepers. 

If I remember correctly this car put the miles on 1/4 at a time. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

  We are talking two different things, considering there is no advertised MSRP for a police vehicles,

The police package was a different option not listed for the public. Had many different suspension to interior changes and were usually Biscayne. The Biscayne did not have the chrome trim down the side was a giveaway.

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, Mark I said:

Bel Air and Biscayne 2 door sedans continued through 1969. I have a 69 Bel Air 2 door sedan.

Here is a '69 Bel Air 2 door sedan.

 

Craig

[Joe in Canada]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

I remember seeing some "fleet sales" booklets with "special" prices. Prices were fixed and not "Suggested" so MSRP wouldn't apply.

Fleet sales was a hole new ball game in pricing and depended on how many cars you were buying. Mostly it was only a custom order color that meant it had to be hand sprayed rather than automatic. Like the Mary Kay pink cars that went through fleet sales rather than the dealership negotiated 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[JonW]

The car arrived yesterday. It's certainly a nice car. I've spent two days cleaning on it and it looks good. However, it is NOT a Maine state police car. It is an accurate clone of one. It has the cop wheels, radio delete plate, and certified calibration sticker on the speedometer. In decoding the data tag, it was originally Willow Green with a Fawn interior. The data tag does show it was originally a V8 car, although I don't know if it was a 396 or not. I haven't gone so far as checking the numbers on the block yet. I also haven't driven it yet, hope to do that later on this week after the rain stops. 

[JonW]

Received a very prompt response from a retired ME trooper. He said '66 was the year they started phasing in automatic transmissions. The Bel Airs were a mix of autos and 3-speed column shifts. So this car is accurate in that respect.

[padgett]

Just something niggling in what is left of my memory but wasn't there something on the data plate that indicated a police package (big alternator and radiator for extended idling...) ?

[John348]

23 minutes ago, padgett said:

Just something niggling in what is left of my memory but wasn't there something on the data plate that indicated a police package (big alternator and radiator for extended idling...) ?

 

NO,  cowl tag would only if the paint/trim was special ordered under COPO 

Edited January 25, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[STEVE POLLARD]

On 1/1/2021 at 7:24 PM, 8E45E said:

Here is a '69 Bel Air 2 door sedan.

 

Craig

I like it !!  It reminds me of my 327 Impala that I restored years ago....... Craig, do you know the owner ?

 

Steve

 

 

[rocketraider]

Coincidentally first full year of THM400 availability in Chevrolet.

 

Does anyone know if earlier Chevrolet police packages used Powerglide?

[padgett]

Chevvy 9C, 9C1, or 9C3 ?

Anyone have a period Police Car data plate ?