Help - value of a 1963 chevy biscayne

[lump]

On 12/19/2020 at 2:16 PM, Pfeil said:

I hate to disappoint you Ed, but the 3rd generation Chevrolet of 194, 215-P,  230, 250, 292 six cylinder engines are not stove bolts. But what they are is one of the best designed six cylinder inline engines ever built. A main bearing between each connecting rod, seven mains in total, and cam to crank gear to gear-no timing chain, they if treated right will last and last. 

Pfeil, 

 

I've known many, many people who have referred to 6 cylinder Chevy engines as "Stovebolts" over several decades. I once tried to research the history and/or background of the nickname, but only found a few guys who suggested that the engines were crude, and about as fast as a stove bolt. But that never satisfied me. It would seem by your reply above that you are more educated on the term. Please enlighten me. 
 

[Grimy]

12 minutes ago, lump said:

 

I've known many, many people who have referred to 6 cylinder Chevy engines as "Stovebolts" over several decades. I once tried to research the history and/or background of the nickname, but only found a few guys who suggested that the engines were crude, and about as fast as a stove bolt. But that never satisfied me. It would seem by your reply above that you are more educated on the term. Please enlighten me. 

I'm not a Chevy guy, but I heard 60 years ago that on the early sixes the right side sheet metal vertical pans were attached to the block with slotted machine screws of the "stove bolt" variety, hence the name.  I'm happy to have Chevy guys jump in and expand on this long-held nickname.

[padgett]

Was even better when Pontiac put the cam on top. "Stovebolt" referred to the bolts used for the valve and timing covers in 1929. The name stuck.

[Bloo]

It is because Chevrolet's 1929 creation was literally held together with stove bolts, on the oil pan, side covers, etc. Common use years ago applied it to any of the old "low pressure oiling" Chevrolets, the last of which were the 1953 stickshift 235 and the 1953 truck & sedan delivery 216.

 

As it turns out that isn't quite true. The 216, which landed in 1937, was a complete redesign even though it looks about the same. It has 4 main bearings instead of three for one thing, and a bunch of other major changes. It is a bit of a stretch to call it the same engine.

 

In more recent years I have heard people referring to the 1953 (Powerglide) through 1963 full pressure oiling engines (235s and 261s) as Stovebolts also. Really stretching it IMHO, although it is closely related to the last "low pressure oiling" engines of the early 50s.

 

The 230-250-292 is a completely new 7 main bearing engine, using some design elements of the small block V8, and is not related to the earlier engines in any way, other than having 6 cylinders. Today is the first time I ever heard anyone call it a Stovebolt.

.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

I recently had to set some younger enthusiasts straight on this same subject.  Stovebolt does NOT apply to the lightweight Chevrolet sixes form the early sixties.

 

The Toyota Land Cruiser 3F engine of the 80s was more of a Stove Bolt than the 194/230/250/292 Chevrolet engines.😄 If only in how the valve cover was held on and location of the distributor.

 

Proof? Look here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Type_A_engine#Type_B

 

And then work up to Toyota type F engine.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[John348]

2 minutes ago, padgett said:

Was even better when Pontiac put the cam on top. "Stovebolt" referred to the bolts used for the valve and timing covers in 1929. The name stuck.

 

Mr P,

I don't know enough about Pontiacs to offer a comment on those vehicles, but I do know that the Chevrolet valve covers were fastened to 2 studs by two 5/16" 'acorn nuts,'  from 1929 through 1953, and did not require any screws as you insinuated to fasten the valve covers to the head. 

 

The bolts often referred to as 'stovebolts' are the 1/4-20 slotted truss head bolts on the side covers, oil pan and timing cover. These were the same type of bolts that were used to hold ovens together. The timing cover and oil pan are barely visible

 

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

6 minutes ago, John348 said:

Chevrolet valve covers were fastened to 2 studs by two 5/16" 'acorn nuts,'  from 1929 through 1953,

 

And why I mentioned them in the Toyota engine comment.😉

[John348]

1 minute ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

And why I mentioned them in the Toyota engine comment.😉

 

We were posting at the same time, 

[Robert Street]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:57 PM, John348 said:

 

Robert, hope all is well with you and your family

 

 Very true, and we know nobody just was "buying a new one off the lot" as Mr Peterson was implying. We know that those particular engines were all designated as to who was getting them and how many they were receiving. I should have been more clear in my response and I will apologize for that. 

Thanks John. We are in south Florida for the holidays but the unlimited energy of the grandkids are amazing!  No car down here but I’ve found a temporary storage place in DelRay Beach that can temporarily store my trailer as he loves cars. Now after that find no winter National show event down here. 
Robert

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, padgett said:

Was even better when Pontiac put the cam on top. 

One of the first engines with a timing BELT!

 

Craig

Edited December 23, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[padgett]

Gee and here I  thought they were all "Blue Flame Sixes". Nothing is worse than an SME out of their specialty.

BTW I never heard of a Pontiac timing belt failure. Of course I also never heard of the engine going over 50k miles either.

and to be completely off topic once had a 68 Firebird that had maybe 2 options. OHC-6 with a three speeds Saginaw. Looked like it had been laid on its side and used for batting practice. Think traded a Saginaw 4-speed for it. Was my DD for about a year.

[Terry Bond]

Well, between this thread and the one about the Gullwing Mercedes, there is no doubt the OPs provided a ton of entertainment.  However - the person who first posted questions about the Chevy hasn't visited the site here since the day following posting the original questions(s) (December 16th).  The Mercedes dude peaked once but never responded.  Both were asked for more details and photos.  Scams?  Kids having some fun?  Inconsiderate?  Nut-cases?  Don't know, but the damage they inflict is -

many are becoming hesitant to try and help someone.   I know I've tired of people posting photos of parts, asking what is it? then never even bothering to say "thanks" and the piece turns up on evil-bay later with some stupid price on it. 

Some of these requests for help and info are beginning to remind me of unwanted robo-calls!

Terry

[Walt G]

Thank you Terry, yes it is indeed sad that people no longer say thank you but expect ( demand?) answers to their questions, the same ones who expect you to be courteous and hold a door open for them when entering or exiting a building with out even a glance of thanks much less the effort to say so.  Lot of experts out there but none have hands on  experience on many of the subjects they comment on. And why am I saying this the day before a major holiday where we are supposed to be thankful..........................

[George Smolinski]

21 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

Some of these requests for help and info are beginning to remind me of unwanted robo-calls!

You can do the same with the posts as you should do with robocalls - ignore them.

[Pfeil]

 Before 1937 they are stove bolts.

 2ND Generation 1937-1961 after 1950 (automatic's of 235 " are full pressure) they are Blue Flame sixes. 

 3RD Generation are again 194", (215" machined to that cu. in. for Pontiac on the 1964 and 1965 Tempest only), 230", 250", tall deck 292". These engines as said before all have seven main bearings.

  Also starting in 1962 a four cylinder 153" that shares all bore spacing, con rod, pistons, valve train sans camshaft....just two cylinders of the six lopped off. Was made for the Nova and industrial applications.

Although the straight 250" was last used in 1979 in the U.S. it continued being used in countries like Brazil until 1992.

As said before one of the best engines Chevrolet ever built.

 

The OHC Pontiac (1966-1969) is a based on but different animal. water pump, oil pump, and distributor are shaft drive outside the engine, and a special crankcase ventilation/ fill station built on the side of the block. A COMPLETLY different block/head. Overhead cam used finger followers like Mercedes and Nissan L-series 4 & 6's. The fiberglass impregnated timing belt was the first and John DeLorean had the patent on it.

230" from 1966 & 1967, 1968 it became 250. The Sprint engines making 207 HP in 1966 and 1968-69 230HP as a 250". All sprints engines using a GM Quadrajet 4BBL  with a redline of 7,000rpm. At the drag strips properly prepped 4 speed Tempest were running mid 14's at 92MPH in the quarter mile.

 The engine is mounted upright just like the 3rd gen Chevrolet 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[cheezestaak2000]

and don't forget that 235 with the 292 truck engine camshaft and 3 one bbl carbs also known as corvette power

[padgett]

Terry: Ever hear of the "Help Desk Syndrome" ? How do you know a problem has been solved ? The user quits calling.

One was "why does the cup holder keep disappearing ?" Were not allowed to say "You are too dumb to use a computer.".

And now we return to GM Sixes with a 6500 redline came first from Pontiac.

[Bloo]

One minor nit: It was a 261 camshaft (or something close) The 292 is a completely unrelated engine.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

This advice is all free and should be treated as such.

 

Here is a list of appraisers, at least not free, you might have to screen them.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/?q=appraiser

 

 

[Terry Bond]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Terry: Ever hear of the "Help Desk Syndrome" ? How do you know a problem has been solved ? The user quits calling.

One was "why does the cup holder keep disappearing ?" Were not allowed to say "You are too dumb to use a computer.".

And now we return to GM Sixes with a 6500 redline came first from Pontiac.

Yeah, I enjoy reading the posts even though things have periodically drifted a bit.  The orig ? sure did stimulate a lot of interesting discussion tho.  Just bugs me the folks asking for help are so inconsiderate sometimes.  

Let's talk about Pontiacs (GTOs).

Terry

[Pfeil]

40 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

Yeah, I enjoy reading the posts even though things have periodically drifted a bit.  The orig ? sure did stimulate a lot of interesting discussion tho.  Just bugs me the folks asking for help are so inconsiderate sometimes.  

Let's talk about Pontiacs (GTOs).

Terry

Agree Terry, and please do start a Pontiac thread.

[padgett]

Whatdaya want to know about the Garbage Truck Option (and not Zora's)

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Also starting in 1963 a four cylinder 153"

 

Nope, 1962! It was the base engine for the new 1962 Chevy II. And yes, Mercruiser is one of the industrial applications for that engine.

 

 On a completely off subject tangent, I once rebuilt a friend's 153 in a 1969 Nova. it took 4 sleeves 😲, as all holes were worn past .060. The engine would shut off when paying the toll on I-95. It had the brainless Powerglide, called the Torque-Drive.

[padgett]

With the 'Gr" (Grade retard) instead of "L" on the shift quadrant

[Pfeil]

15 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

Nope, 1962! It was the base engine for the new 1962 Chevy II. And yes, Mercruiser is one of the industrial applications for that engine.

 

 On a completely off subject tangent, I once rebuilt a friend's 153 in a 1969 Nova. it took 4 sleeves 😲, as all holes were worn past .060. The engine would shut off when paying the toll on I-95. It had the brainless Powerglide, called the Torque-Drive.

Yes, my mistake. Hemmings Classic car magazine featured one in July 2009 issue. I think it would be a interesting car to own.

Made from 1962-1970, I've only seen one. Last one made in Brazil 1991. 

 

 

 

 

this is the engine in the article

 

And there is a name for the 3rd gen six " HI-THRIFT"

 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[padgett]

Was the four available in full sized cars as a Taxi Cab option ? Seem to remember something like that.

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Was the four available in full sized cars as a Taxi Cab option ? Seem to remember something like that.

Well the caption on the add said the engine was for the Nova. I mentioned the article in Hemmings. In that article they mentioned that the three speed stick was ok in city driving, but once the car was on the HWY it was pretty much out of breath. Can't imagine what it would be like in a full size Chevy. So I would say no, way too underpowered only 90HP.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[padgett]

Just remembering something from 1969. Of course at the time was thinking more about the ZL1 option being as much as the base price of a camaro coupe.  (Servicemen got price sheets while overseas so could order for their return).

[John348]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Just remembering something from 1969. Of course at the time was thinking more about the ZL1 option being as much as the base price of a camaro coupe.  (Servicemen got price sheets while overseas so could order for their return).

 

Like the Z11 cars nobody was ordering  ZL1. 

[Frank DuVal]

23 hours ago, padgett said:

With the 'Gr" (Grade retard) instead of "L" on the shift quadrant

 

NO!

That was Turboglide. A full sized car transmission from 1958 era (1957 to 1961).

 

The Torque-Drive was marked 1st and Hi. You better start out in 1st if you wanted any  acceleration.😉 But it would take off in Hi if you wanted to.

 

See the quadrant here:

 

https://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/the-torque-drive-transmission-chevys-manually-shifted-automatic/

 

7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Can't imagine what it would be like in a full size Chevy. So I would say no, way too underpowered only 90HP.

I can!

I did an experiment with a 64 Biscayne 230/Powerglide a friend had with a bad block and head from running way too long with a blown head gasket between 2 and 3. I pulled the push roods out of cylinders 2 and 3 and ran it as a four cylinder. Yes, really ssslllooowww on acceleration, but would do 70 on the interstate. 

 

I still use that block as an anvil, really handy.👍

[padgett]

Oh that  T-glide. Think I had one in a rental Nova around 1970. Overheated at 70.

[John348]

16 hours ago, padgett said:

Oh that  T-glide. Think I had one in a rental Nova around 1970. Overheated at 70.

 

No, you had wrong transmission there was no Turboglide  in 1970,  it was a Turbodrive.  

 

You are batting 1.000 on this thread, stick with the Pontiacs 

[padgett]

OK turbo drive. Not a great tranny in any case.

[John348]

4 hours ago, padgett said:

OK turbo drive. Not a great tranny in any case.

 

GR on a Turbo drive? but it was a bad transmission? 

[Frank DuVal]

Torque-Drive was a manually shifted Powerglide, so it held up well!

 

Say what you want about slip and slide Powerglides, but they ARE STILL USED IN DRAG RACING TO THIS DAY! You can make them hold up to lottttttttts of torque! Plus they have that nostalgic whine and slightly lurch in neutral.😉