Cadillac Dealers Bailing

[Steve Moskowitz]

I just thought as a former GM dealer I would weigh in on this subject.  Nothing new here.  Manufacturers for years have used the hammer of new facilities, buy-in for expensive tool programs or marketing programs to help weed out dealers.  The sad part is that there were in fact too many dealers in many markets but the real sad part in my opinion is the damage that was done to multi-generational families who owned small home town dealerships.  These small town stores were the bedrock of many communities and supported everything from little leagues to schools.  They were in Rotary, Lions, Chamber of Commerce etc.  Losing the dealerships was a blow to the communities and owners of cars that they serviced.  

[TerryB]

I’m not a big fan of the supermarket approach to buying cars and the mega push to sell, sell sell.  There were many smaller dealers when I was a kid.  Of course the cars were simpler to work on and the overhead to the dealership had to be a lot less then.  Today to survive I guess you have to be a big player to make a profit.

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, zepher said:

No serious flagship brand should have FWD cars in their lineup unless it's an entry level model.
No true luxury car has FWD.

Explain then the Oldsmobile Toronado and 67-later Cadillac Eldorado.

[rocketraider]

2 hours ago, zepher said:

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by rocketraider
Double posted and forum won't let me DELETE IT 😡 (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

To expand on Steve's comments, GM yanked the Buick franchise out from under a 90 year old 5th generation dealer here to give it to the oily Chev-Cad-GMC dealer down the street. This Buick dealer had held Virginia auto dealer license #5 since 1924.

 

17 years earlier GM yanked the Olds-Cad franchises out from under a dealer who had been in business since 1936 and gave them to the same oily Chevy dealer, who wanted Cadillac badly but didn't want Oldsmobile. He had to take Olds to get Cadillac, but the greasy sob wouldn't do warranty work on Oldsmobiles purchased at the former Olds dealer. He didn't count on one of his Oldsmobile customers having friends in both Rockville and Charlotte zone service.

 

GM forced the full line GM dealer in a small town 30 miles east out of business by telling him he could do a half million $$ in appearance upgrades or surrender his four carlines to the oily dealer mentioned above.

 

Between that POS Bravada's warranty issues and GM's actions towards its small dealers, I switched to Fords for daily drivers.

[viv w]

Just reading these articles is interesting.

I live in a third world country, where we battle for electric power just to power our companies and houses, never mind to produce power to replace all the old vehicles with electric ones. The idea of electric vehicles taking over in remote places like this seems a long way off, and a lot of people do not see it coming.

  2 years ago a friend of mine came back to this country from UK on a visit, and we were discussing electric cars. He had sold all his old cars and advised me the wise thing to do, was to get rid of all my antique cars soon, while I could still sell them. We had a long discussion about this and he reminded me, that several years before, he had told me that digital camera's were the in thing, and that any old roll film cameras that I owned should be sold while they still had a value, as they would soon be obsolete and worthless dinosaurs. 

 At the time I had a shop and sold many cameras and the films to put into them, well within 5 years Kodak went bust, films started becoming hard to get and soon after the old school cameras were worthless. So, what has this to do with our old cars? Well none of us with antique and classic cars want to believe that our old cars could soon become extinct.

 We all need to take a look at what is happening around the world, Volvo have already set a date to stop production of gas cars and build only electric vehicles, Ford, GM, BMW, Audi, VW, Nissan, Toyota and many other companies are rapidly developing and promoting electric vehicles, and the battery charging and electric technology is evolving at a rapid rate. 

 Britain recently announced that from 2030 no new Gas powered cars will be sold new in their country, that is less than 10 years from now. So what of the future ?, do you think anyone in UK will buy a new 2018 model gas powered car in Britain, knowing that in a short time the car will be outdated. After 2030, how long will it be before they stop selling gas for older vehicles, or will it be legislated to remove gas powered cars? who knows, but for the old car lovers this could be disaster.

 The world is fast becoming less tolerant of cars generally and fast moving towards replacing them with commuter transport, electric buses, trucks, trains, etc will become the norm and self drive to work will be  a thing of the past, hopefully not in my lifetime, but certainly I can see it happening sooner than we think.

[TTR]

11 minutes ago, viv w said:

 So, what has this to do with our old cars? Well none of us with antique and classic cars want to believe that our old cars could soon become extinct.

 , but certainly I can see it happening sooner than we think.

While my main reason to drive vintage cars is due to it providing enormous pleasures, this is also why I do it as much and often as I can. 
Besides, doing so provides more overall sustainability for the hobby itself than anything else, period.

[1937hd45]

What is the current range of flight on an a electric airplane today? 

[72caddy]

2 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I just thought as a former GM dealer I would weigh in on this subject.  Nothing new here.  Manufacturers for years have used the hammer of new facilities, buy-in for expensive tool programs or marketing programs to help weed out dealers.  The sad part is that there were in fact too many dealers in many markets but the real sad part in my opinion is the damage that was done to multi-generational families who owned small home town dealerships.  These small town stores were the bedrock of many communities and supported everything from little leagues to schools.  They were in Rotary, Lions, Chamber of Commerce etc.  Losing the dealerships was a blow to the communities and owners of cars that they serviced.  

Cant agree more. I live in a town of about 150K people. Expanded area, maybe 250K. Most of the dealerships are family owned. These families support our Arts and community without question. I know them since I went to high school with them, my kids went to school with their kids and most of the time the families made sure that their kids worked their way up to ownership. They are stand-up citizens and proud of our community and try to help when they can.

[zepher]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Explain then the Oldsmobile Toronado and 67-later Cadillac Eldorado.

 

Still not world class halo luxury cars.

[padgett]

"What is the current range of flight on an a electric airplane today?" "Solar Impulse 2 has completed the first round-the-world flight"

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, zepher said:

 

Still not world class halo luxury cars.

In their time NOTHING could touch them for advanced engineering, creature comforts, or styling. Rolls, Daimler, Lancia and Maserati notwithstanding, European luxury at the time was oxymoronic and Asian luxury didn't exist. Yes, the game has changed in the last 25 years, but I will put a Mitchell-styled GM FWD E-body against anyone's "luxury" car.

 

At least you could repair them. By the time it's out of warranty current German-standard luxury is often not worth the cost of repairing it.

[Mark Gregory]

I heard on the radio that Tesla is shaking up the Electric car business again by including all the electronic upgrades in their cars.

 

So when the average car or the most expensive goes down the assembly line.

 

All they have to do is add a switch in the computer to activate that upgrade in the car.

 

The average car just wouldn't have a gadget activated unless you pay which makes it more a more expensive car.

 

No more having to add all sorts of extra equipment to the car.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[TTR]

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

At least you could repair them. By the time it's out of warranty current German-standard luxury is often not worth the cost of repairing it.

I doubt any car manufacturer wants their cars last much beyond (mandatory) warranty period.

They’re all in the business of manufacturing and selling new cars.
Every car nurtured beyond its predetermined life expectancy is loosing them money.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Automotive technology, in the rest of the world, is moving towards Ev. Regardless  of what anyone thinks, no one person, single nation, or alternate technology, is going to alter the progression. We can either buy into the real, world, try to compete, or fall behind, and cease to be relevant. 

 

  

[Frank DuVal]

42 minutes ago, Mark Gregory said:

I heard on the radio that Tesla is shaking up the Electric car business again by including all the electronic upgrades in their cars.

 

So when the average car or the most expensive goes down the assembly line.

 

All they have to do is add a switch in the computer to activate that upgrade in the car.

 

The average car just wouldn't have a gadget activated unless you pay which makes it more a more expensive car.

 

No more having to add all sorts of extra equipment to the car.

 

This is already don with electronic test equipment by manufacturers such as Hewlett-Packard, wait, that's Agilent, oops, wait again ,now Keysight. And you thought it was hard guessing what car make is made by what manufacturer....

 

Normal to buy a spectrum analyzers or such, decide you need another capability, and send them money, get a password to enter into the analyzer and Bob's Your Uncle, now the option works. No need to return to the factory. Already inside, you just had to pay for it. Tesla now does it too for their cars. But, if I sold a spectrum analyzer, the option I paid for would go to the next owner. Tesla wants the buyer of the used Tesla to buy the option AGAIN!

[C Carl]

9 hours ago, zepher said:

..........................
No true luxury car has FWD................and Mercedes ..............................

Uh, do WHAT now, zepher?...........................

Cadillac Carl standing here to testify..................

Have you never driven an early 21st Century Northstar Cadillac ? You know , the ones with Stabilitrak ll ?  I mean put some REAL miles on it ? 15 - 16 consecutive hours of the most comfortable saddle time a couple of days in a row ? Climatically controlled as per your preference, with Bosified tunes playing as you like ‘em ? Maybe getting and holding the cruise speed up in excess of 20 mph above the speed limit for extended periods ? Maybe 120  for a while where rare conditions allow it ? (Sure, you could, and I have exceeded even that - those luxury FWD Cads are comfortable and stable there). By the time that long leg of the journey is done, you arrive well-preserved, pampered in the gentle luxury those big V8 cars provide. And they look pretty good , too. Honest , no gimmick styling inside and out. Or to put things another way : Isn’t this what a Cord or Ruxton would have been if it could have survived and evolved another six or seven decades ? 
 

For the moment, please allow me to post this now. It is about my bed time, and I have been picking away at this from time to time this P.M. We yet have to mention the Northstar engine problem, and a couple 4T80E issues. These pushed me out of the frying pan of Cadillac luxury, and into the fire of Mercedes-Benz.   TBC,  -  CC

 

P.S.  My Northstar, a 2002 STS would make a believer out of anyone with a foot or two. Again, I ask during intermission : Zepher, have you ever driven one of “them thangs” ? 
 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by C Carl
Add P.S. (see edit history)

[zepher]

I have not put hours in the driver seat of a FWD Cadillac.

And I would not want to.

As for a FWD car being comfortable at highway speeds, my 02 Altima with the V6 will do over 100mph for hours and feels more than rock solid.

But when it comes to luxury car handling when things get spirited, there is no substitute for a true RWD or AWD platform.

How many hyper-cars are FWD?
How many actual race cars are FWD?

 

I have driven around 200 miles total in a few year old BWM 745Li that my brother in law owns.

It drives great and the power is even and has zero torque steer.

It feels balanced in corners and is quite planted for its size and weight.

How many true flagship cars are FWD?

[TerryB]

https://www.cadillac.com/showcar/lyriq

 

Here is a link to the Cadillac EV that started this whole discussion.

[John348]

7 hours ago, zepher said:

How many true flagship cars are FWD?

I really can't answer your question, but Cadillacs newer passenger cars are not front wheel drive, they are all wheel drive or rear wheel drive. By comparing a new late model/new Cadillac to a 20 year old Nissan Altima it is makes it hard to believe that you have driven a new Cadillac. Comparing a new/newer Cadillac to a 20 year old Cadillac would be difficult

Edited December 7, 2020 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

My suggestion is to avoid Northstars before '04. Nothing wrong with FWD if done properly. Is interesting that before the Mini, most production FWD engines were longitudinal rather than transverse. And then there is the Fiero: GM took the whole 1980 FWD assembly and put in back (is a pair of struts to keep the rear wheels from steering).

 

But then my background is from the competition side and FWD predated the 20th century.

[R W Burgess]

On 12/5/2020 at 2:02 PM, padgett said:

 

 

Guess the fact is that many, particularly of the older generation, just do not like computer cars, and get expensive service from the inept, and require a dealer to fix what they broke - and do not like it when you try tell them that.

 

 

*

And there you go Padgett, the older generation. We could care less about this new-fangled over priced vehicles. Of course, the thinkers that know everything say we are close to death anyway, so why worry about us. They still have plenty of time to screw up the education of the youngerns to have them believe anything they say. :-) 

[padgett]

Yes but we get to spend their inheritance. 70 is the new 50.

 

No so much overpriced as over buttoned. Touchscreen in 88 Reatta is really nice, screens are large and specific to a function. Three Caddys and Two Mercs from this century all have 70ish knobs, buttons, and sliders facing the driver. Each is different. I put velcro dots on ones often used (said before but still handy)

 

 I like my pocket O'scope, great for finding bad grounds in a car, just look for a ground with a signal onnit. Of course was doing that back in a tracking station in the '60s.

 

Is a real problem for me. The bulk of the hobbyists have this rosy view of what cars were like in the muscle car era. I was there & find Junkyard Gold hilarious.

[John348]

46 minutes ago, padgett said:

Is a real problem for me. The bulk of the hobbyists have this rosy view of what cars were like in the muscle car era. I was there & find Junkyard Gold hilarious.

 

What do you base that on? and secondly and more importantly what does these random thoughts and opinions have to do with Cadillac buying back their franchises? Now in 2022? 

Edited December 7, 2020 by John348 (see edit history)

[George Cole]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

By comparing a new late model/new Cadillac to a 20 year old Nissan Altima it is makes it hard to believe that you have driven a new Cadillac. Comparing a new/newer Cadillac to a 20 year old Cadillac would be difficult

Not true.  I've got a 2020 Escalade (with 2100 miles on the odometer,) and my 1999 GMC Suburban 2500 4x4 (with 246k miles on it,) sitting in the driveway. (The 2020 is a loaner, while my 2019 Escalade 4x4 is in the shop for computer issues AGAIN...5th time in 18 months.  This time the check engine light came on, and it recently developed a growling noise, similar to a idler wheel bearing, but last update I got from the dealer was they think it's internal and were getting ready to pull the oil pan.  It's got 41k miles on it.)  My 21 year-old Suburban rides better than either of the Escalades.  My wife even said so.  Seats are more comfortable and the ride is better.  Steering on the Suburban has a more positive feel.  Granted it doesn't have all of the electronic bells and whistles, but to me that's a plus, as that's what's been so screwed up on the Escalade.  However, gotta please the wife, and she wanted the Escalade.  With about $10k in discounts, my Escalade was a steak dinner shy of $100k out the door...and it's not even the Premium edition.  Tack on another $20k for that.  In another comparison, I drove my daughter's Honda Pilot for over 2 hours straight.  I could hardly walk when I got out as my butt and back hurt so bad.  It rode like a truck and I felt like I was sitting on a pine board all the way.  Extremely uncomfortable.  I don't know how she or anyone else can tolerate it.  I recently drove the Suburban coast-to-coast in 52 hours, towing an enclosed trailer.  Left Tampa, FL, late Friday afternoon and arrived in Portland, OR, Sunday evening.  With a good night's sleep, I was ready to turn around and drive back.

[ol' yeller]

I guess I’m a Luddite. I am well into my 67th year and I’ll never buy a solely electric powered car. I have a 32.5 Class C RV with one of the last Ford V10s produced. It is a great engine for its purpose as I’ve had 3 of them. I also bought my last car last June, a 2019 Dodge Challenger with the 5.7 Hemi. My 3rd vehicle is a 2007 New Beetle that I use as a toad behind my RV. I’ve always been a GM guy (mostly Buicks) over the years but I found no excitement in the newer models, especially when compared to the performance of my Challenger.  These will all likely be my last vehicles barring an accident.

 

It is sad to see great brands like Cadillac and Buick become mere shadows of their former selves. I agree it is even sadder to see longtime dealerships close and those jobs and community support disappear. I realize what works for me isn’t for everyone but it does work for me.

[Fossil]

22 minutes ago, ol' yeller said:

These will all likely be my last vehicles barring an accident.

Unless your terminal I'm guessing something else is going to come along that piques your interest and you'll be a buyer again. 

 

[ol' yeller]

Actually, I’m on my 3rd “last car” now.  But I do have heart issues!

[John348]

16 minutes ago, ol' yeller said:

Actually, I’m on my 3rd “last car” now.  But I do have heart issues!

 

I resemble that remark..... ... 

[padgett]

GF talks about my disabilities. However nonexistant balance is annoying and lack of hearing just makes life very peaceful. Still can lift a block or a tranny. More of an issue is that Roku can't stream HBO Max except through Android.

 

Can't think of anything automotive newer than what I have that is wanted. Prefer cars I can reprogram. Do have one that is hardened from EMP just in case.

[Grimy]

16 minutes ago, padgett said:

Do have one that is hardened from EMP just in case.

Show us a photo of the Faraday Cage car, please!  Those of us with tungsten ignition-point cars are already protected from EMP--which, if it happens, will result in a huge increase in the value of such cars...  🙂

[D Yaros]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:52 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

Thank you for sharing the article, Jake.

 

Cadillac, in my opinion, is no longer the halo brand

to which buyers aspire.  For smaller dealers, who

may carry the entire GM car line-up of Chevrolet,

Buick, and Cadillac, the added cost to handle electric

Cadillacs probably doesn't seem worth the trouble.

 

 

I have to agree that the Cadillac of today is not a "brand to which buyers aspire."  When I see the ads for the car on t.v. I say to myself, "It looks no different than a Lexus, Infiniti or any other foreigh import.

[Brass is Best]

Very sad. 

[zepher]

7 hours ago, John348 said:

I really can't answer your question, but Cadillacs newer passenger cars are not front wheel drive, they are all wheel drive or rear wheel drive. By comparing a new late model/new Cadillac to a 20 year old Nissan Altima it is makes it hard to believe that you have driven a new Cadillac. Comparing a new/newer Cadillac to a 20 year old Cadillac would be difficult

 

FWD is FWD for the most part.

The major improvement in that time have been all of the electronics and gee-whiz stuff.

As I said, I have driven a few year old BWM 745Li to compare to a modern Cadillac.  The car is powered by a twin turbo V8, is RWD and has just as many, if not more, electronics than any modern Cadillac.

My main point with the 20 year old Nissan comparison was that any decently powered FWD car can do well over the speed limit for great lengths of time.

That is not a special feat.

 

My main point still stands, no flagship car should be FWD, ever.

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, ol' yeller said:

I am well into my 67th year

 

14 hours ago, ol' yeller said:

These will all likely be my last vehicles barring an accident.

Don't write yourself or your vehicle buying off.  When I was 13, the two brothers, aged 70, that owned our nearby Service Station each bought their last cars two 1955 Chevrolets.  In 1961 they came into the dealer where I worked and each bought another new Chevrolet.  In 1973 they once again came in and bought another new Chevrolet.  I mentioned remembering the discussion about their "first" last car.  They laughed about it  and said at 88 this would be their last new cars.  These were their last cars.  Both of them almost made 100 and were still driving when they died..

Edited December 8, 2020 by Guest (see edit history)

[Fossil]

When I bought our 16 ft. Crestliner in 99 I said that we would never buy another new boat.  Yah right.  Now I'm 70 and setting beside it is a new 1750 Crestliner. Never is a long time!   

[1937hd45]

Soon to be 70 and a new car is the last thing I'd think about buying. That kind of money would buy a nice CCCA Classic or a real nice Brass Era car.

 

Bob 

[Frank DuVal]

22 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Soon to be 70 and a new car is the last thing I'd think about buying.

No one used the word "new" in the "last car" discussion.  Go back and look. That's why I was wondering about the "last vehicles" comment. There is always another project that pops up when you least expect it!

 

I've only ever bought  new cars for the wife to drive, and only two of those!😉👍😉  After all, I'm in the AACA, not the NACA. (N for New)

[Bryan G]

I had a customer some years back, a woman just a few years older than I who I found stunningly attractive (enough to always make me stutter.) She was bragging to me one day about her new F150 which, without a doubt, would be her last vehicle. She may have been 30. I haven't seen her lately but I find it hard to imagine she's still driving a 20 year old Ford.

[cheezestaak2000]

i would love to see these replies posted again in about 15 years. then we'll see who the smart people are/were.  by the way, as soon as hotels wake up and install chargers, many things will change. i laugh when i pass a local gas station (wawa) that has a row of them. i guess they cater to 20th century thinking. i'm 74, and every nickel i've ever made was from automibles, but i'd buy an electric vehicle in a heartbeat.