Radiator questions

[drovak]

On my '31 8-86, a previous owner used stop-leak. I would optimally like to get rid of all traces of it and actually fix the problem instead of patching it. 

 

Will a standard radiator shop likely be able to take good care of cleaning out my radiator?

 

I noticed the thermostatic shutters are always open. Is it common for the thermostat unit to fail? What tips and tricks ought one follow to get this serviceable again?

[Robert Engle]

The thermostat units do fail from cracks in the bellows.  Usually they fail in the shut position as heat causes the bellows to expand and push them open.  It is common to find them wedged open as that is failsafe.  If there is no wedge in your shutters, you may look for the spring which pulls them shut to see if it is working.  

New bellows virtually don't exist anymore.  There are vendors that repair and recharge the bellows.  You can test your thermostat by removing the unit and putting in water on the stove and see if it begins to expand at about 120 degrees. if it expands, don't continue heating it as it may expand and fail.  If it does expand, I can go back and find my notes on the amount of force it needs to generate for correct operation to complete the test.

I hope you find that the spring is disconnected as the source of your problem.

 

Bob Engle

[drovak]

Thank you as always, Bob. I can't even get a single screw to budge, allowing me to remove the thermostat. Sigh. I'll let some penetrant soak in. I'm gathering the previous owner probably didn't care that the shutters were stuck open. 

[Str8-8-Dave]

drovak- If you go to the last post on page one of my 31 Buick 8-66S restoration thread you will see how you have to remove the thermostat from the radiator tank.  It also has info on who restores these thermostats and lots of other stuff related to getting the thermostatic front radiator shutter working properly.   Last post on Page 1

 

Dave

 

 

[drovak]

1 hour ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

drovak- If you go to the last post on page one of my 31 Buick 8-66S restoration thread you will see how you have to remove the thermostat from the radiator tank.  It also has info on who restores these thermostats and lots of other stuff related to getting the thermostatic front radiator shutter working properly. 

Thank you! Very helpful. I guess I will also have to drill these screws out, as they are definitely not wanting to budge. Dang!

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, drovak said:

Thank you! Very helpful. I guess I will also have to drill these screws out, as they are definitely not wanting to budge. Dang!

 

Join the club.  You are not the first person to need to do this.  It is a good thing to have a good drill set and a complete tap & die set when working on these old vehicles. 

[drovak]

16 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

Join the club.  You are not the first person to need to do this.  It is a good thing to have a good drill set and a complete tap & die set when working on these old vehicles. 

Fortunately, I am prepared! However, what I'm realizing is, the more I dig into this car, the more I realize that the "frame off" restoration it got in the '80s was maybe not of the highest quality, and certainly, certain things were overlooked. Not totally surprising, but a little disappointing nevertheless. Nothing to do but to keep working on it, "one piece at a time!"

[Larry Schramm]

5 minutes ago, drovak said:

Fortunately, I am prepared! However, what I'm realizing is, the more I dig into this car, the more I realize that the "frame off" restoration it got in the '80s was maybe not of the highest quality, and certainly, certain things were overlooked. Not totally surprising, but a little disappointing nevertheless. Nothing to do but to keep working on it, "one piece at a time!"

 

"Frame off" means a lot of things to different persons.  Anything from a "lick & a promise" to an over the top over restoration better than the vehicle ever came from the factory.

[drovak]

Lucky me, as I didn't have to resort to the drill and tap set! Only had two screws break off at the head, and the rest, while resisting, came out fine on their own. Guess the penetrant oil worked. Seems like there's some takeaway here about patience...eh, forget about it. 

 

Cover removed. The linkage was frozen tight on the cover, so I gently unscrewed it, cover and all, pulling it out just enough to clear the remnants of the screws.

 

 

Now, what the heck is that gritty, yucky stuff? Can't say I've seen anything like it before. Nothing should've been in that cavity, but clearly it filled up with something at some point.

 

Sylphon removed. Shockingly, I hear fluid in it, and it seems airtight. Wow. I'm not sure I am ever that lucky! Oh, and I think I found the oil in my coolant.

 

 

Definitely sludge in the radiator. Probably a nice mix of stop-leak, oil, coolant, and who knows what else. I had successfully extracted the two broken screws at this point.

 

[drovak]

I spent some time cleaning up the Sylphon. 

 

 

 

 

Also gave the cover a good scrub inside. Still have no idea what that crusty stuff was, but it was quite difficult to clean off.

 

[drovak]

Lastly, here's the bespoke linkage—quite the art piece. Looks like someone bent some steel strap. 

 

 

If anyone has a linkage for sale, or could sketch out the proper dimensions so I can get one machined, I would be ever grateful. 

 

I did learn that there certainly doesn't feel like any spring tension on the louvers, but the Sylphon would've had a hard time working against a rusted lever arm anyways.

[Grimy]

Jim Otto of TN, who used to rebuild the Sylphon thermostats, reportedly sold his business to Scott Henningsen of CA, a youngish and very talented machinist who reproduces a significant number of parts for Pierce-Arrows and other vehicles.  Scott knows his stuff.  He can be found at scotthenningsen (at) aol.com  I think Scott is actually making NEW Sylphons as well as rebuilding them.

 

John Cislak of MA has been reproducing some Sylphon covers and perhaps linkage.  He only checks email once a week or so, so phone is best: 4 wun tree 5 for tree 9 oh wun 7.

 

Suggest you hang the Sylphon from a pot on the stove (immersed, but don't let it touch the bottom or side) and raise the temp and watch for a 1-inch or so increase in length of the threaded bolt--if so, it's working.

 

I learned the hard way to make sure that we periodically lube the shutter/slat pivots to keep them from hanging up--and killing the Sylphon.  This is especially important if the slats have been rechromed, as on my 1934 Pierce, which results in added diameter to the pegs/pivots.  I use an aerosol can of lube, backed up with paper towels, on both top and bottom pivots, annually.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Grimy
2 word clarification (see edit history)

[drovak]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

Suggest you hang the Sylphon from a pot on the stove (immersed, but don't let it touch the bottom or side) and raise the temp and watch for a 1-inch or so increase in length of the threaded bolt--if so, it's working.

The bolt certainly moves a little, but only a fraction of an inch. That doesn't seem like it would do much, even after "amplified" by the lever arm. This thing also has to overcome the force of the spring (which is missing in my shutter assembly, below), so I'm thinking it's not so good after all.

 

 

I'll be in touch with Scott and see what he thinks. 

 

Good call on the lubrication. I was about to ask about that, as my slats are clearly in need of some. Any reason a little grease couldn't be used after complete disassembly and cleaning? 

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, drovak said:

Good call on the lubrication. I was about to ask about that, as my slats are clearly in need of some. Any reason a little grease couldn't be used after complete disassembly and cleaning? 

Whatever works.  Grease and oil attract dirt, though.  I'm using the end of an aerosol can of "Mobil 1 Synthetic Lubricant," which I unfortunately have not found on the shelves of auto supply stores in the past year.  I'd been using that when I want to minimize dirt contamination.

 

BTW, the spring trying to hold my shutters closed is a real SOB, and I've had to use vise grips on the rod to pull and prop them open.  I have no idea whether it's stronger than it should be.

 

The amplification you speak of is in the bellcrank (or whatever you want to call it), which gives considerable mechanical advantage.

 

Please keep us posted--a number of us should be doing the same thing!  🙂

Edited December 1, 2020 by Grimy
typo (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

7 hours ago, drovak said:

The bolt certainly moves a little, but only a fraction of an inch. That doesn't seem like it would do much, even after "amplified" by the lever arm. This thing also has to overcome the force of the spring (which is missing in my shutter assembly, below), so I'm thinking it's not so good after all.

 

So you are starting at almost the exact same point I did with my thermostatic shutter system.  Your thermostat is toast based on your testing, requires bellows replacement and charging at minimum, outright replacement wouldn't cost much more.  My shutter did have a spring but since the thermostat was inoperative the clever folks that had the car before I did put a big spring on the shutter and arranged it so that it opened the shutter instead of closing it.  If you read my post you will see I spent a lot of time finding a spring that would produce about 8-10lb closing force and used a Chatillon force gauge to test it.  See pgs 17,18 of the 1931 Specifications and Adjustments manual for a complete description of how the system is supposed to work with temperature calibration info for the thermostat, expected force output of the thermostat from which I decided 8-10lb spring force was about right and linkage description and adjustment.     I have a Buick radiator drawing I can share with you if you want it.  Send your e-mail address to dkrugler@msn.com and I will send the drawing.

 

Dave...

[Robert Engle]

I accidentally posted photos of the linkage on your hood hinge post. I'll repeat them here for future questioners.

 

On my 32-58, I had to completely dismantle the shutter assembly for repairs to some shutters.  The shutters are attached to the top sliding rod by rivets with shoulder.  The ends are peened over to keep the shutter in place.  There is a chrome plated slotted tube on the pivot portion.  The shutters are pivot on pins both top and bottom.  I made new pivot pins of stainless steel and polished the small portion that shows on the front.  I made new rivets but instead of peening them in place, I tapped them and installed them and used round head screws with loctite applied.  The chrome tubes were severely corroded so I got brass tubing of the correct size and and made a slotting fixture and cut the slots on my mill.  The reason for using brass tubing is economy.  To send the original tubes out they would have to deplate, repair,copper plate, nickel plate and then chrome plate.  With the brass they just have polish, nickel plate, and chrome plate.  The shutters were bead blasted and painted black.  The assembly turned out very well and worked properly on the first startup of the engine.  The hutters began to open at 120 degrees and were full  open at 140 Degrees.

 

When looking at many 1932 Buicks, I found many different grill shutter appearances.  Some are full chrome from top to bottom.  Some have shutters chrome plated and the top and bottom pieces black.  Some leave the shutter pivot portion black with chrome on the pivot, no added piece. Some are all black from top to bottom.  I believe that the factory correct is black with chrome stripes from top to bottom.  

 

Bob Engle