Jump to content

Oil pressure relief needed on 1918 Kissel


Recommended Posts

Hi all,  I have a 1918 Kissel Roadster 6 cyl that is running excessively high oil pressure.  The oil simply can't drain fast enough from the dam at the main bearing caps into the pan and thus it overflows and creates a puddle on the ground.  This is both front and rear.  The dash [and external gauge I added for confirmation] shows 50+ PSI right at start up.  The manual says not to let it get over 5PSI!  It stays very high while driving or at idle.  After full warm up, it finally drops to about 7 psi at idle. I pulled the pan and removed the gear type oil pump.  No relief system on it- even thought manual shows one on the pump.  The manual picture is not the same as the pump either.  This car was built during the WW1 time frame and it's clear that they made a change to the oil system, as evidenced by the modification to the oil pan.  It's possible the pressure relief was not built in.  I also followed the lines and can not find one.   Since then I have switched to 5W30 oil in hopes the lower viscosity would lower it some.  Not much change.  I am looking to add an external regulator and dump the excess oil pressure back to the pan.  I can use the oil pressure gauge fitting on the block for the source.  Has anyone done this and does one find components.  Any thoughts are appreciated. 

1302841913_RearmainOilPumpon18e.thumb.JPG.7832f4e41d09f2eba6eb095c6a055766.JPG159146796_RearmainOilPumpon18f.thumb.JPG.795fd8e49449a85c9c4c60a6b01788bc.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug,

      Your car HAS the correct oil pump for a 1916 - 1918 Kissel Model 6-38. It is Kissel Part number 90457-1. No relief. Not designed for that.
      Later Kissel models 6-45 and 6-55 Used the pump with relief, parts number 90457-3 and 90457-10. You are apparently using a Kissel 6-45 manual, not for a 6-38. Those are the pumps shown in the manual. From 1919 up thru 1926 ish. With relief. The blocks on those Kissel cars 1919 and up are a touch different there on the side to accommodate the reliefs they were designed for.
      I have three of the later pumps inside my three spare Kissel 6-55 Engines which have never been taken apart. 
      If I were you, I would not change the original pump you have nor the design. Your Kissel 3-38 used a “splash” oil system with an aid of an oil pump feed to only the three main bearings. Your pistons have fingers which dip into the oil pan troughs to create a chaos of oil spray within the crank case when the engine is running. If you experience more oil flying around Because of higher oil pump pressure, to me, that would be ok in my mind. My own 1918 Kissel Sedanlette has the same pump you have and when warm, the engine runs fine.

     You should make sure that your three main bearing oil lines are the correct size, as this could impact the flow and thus pressure. 
     Take care. Ron Hausmann P.E.
      
      

6B0E657A-6CAC-429A-8C45-E691E937A2A5.jpeg

2B949CDB-7EFC-4476-9FBD-50DDC91FDB76.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron provided a very clear answer as I expected he would. Now your choices are more difficult. Is the engine recently rebuilt? Is the car new to you? You only need five pounds oil pressure for every thousand rpm with today’s modern oils. With them calling for five pounds pressure back then, it’s clear they didn’t have any design issues and the car functioned fine at five pounds. I’m thinking bearing design issue......like incorrect oil grooves in the mains, or a restriction placed in the oil gallery to increase pressure by a well meaning but uninformed engine builder. Since the pump only feeds the mains, an internal bypass may be an option IF the only other solution is to tear it down and do it over again. Biggest problem even with the willingness to pull the motor and do it right.......is you need to figure out what’s causing the over pressure.......which may or may not be easy to determine. If you get it all apart and find nothing? I think at this juncture I would pull the main caps one at a a time and compare what you have to what Ron has done on his bearings. With modern oil today, you can run five or zero weight without any issues of oil failure. My 1917 White takes 40weight, and I’m running five in it now to help clean and flush the motor after sitting 75 years. I am just changing it every fifty miles with thr cheapest stuff I can find. I will probably go to 40 next week. Photos of the oil pan and more of the lower end may help spot you problem. Also, you refer to the “dam” So a photo of the wind age tray and it’s drain, as well as the rod scupper troughs might be helpful also.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ron hausmann said:

Doug,

      Your car HAS the correct oil pump for a 1916 - 1918 Kissel Model 6-38. It is Kissel Part number 90457-1. No relief. Not designed for that.
      Later Kissel models 6-45 and 6-55 Used the pump with relief, parts number 90457-3 and 90457-10. You are apparently using a Kissel 6-45 manual, not for a 6-38. Those are the pumps shown in the manual. From 1919 up thru 1926 ish. With relief. The blocks on those Kissel cars 1919 and up are a touch different there on the side to accommodate the reliefs they were designed for.
      I have three of the later pumps inside my three spare Kissel 6-55 Engines which have never been taken apart. 
      If I were you, I would not change the original pump you have nor the design. Your Kissel 3-38 used a “splash” oil system with an aid of an oil pump feed to only the three main bearings. Your pistons have fingers which dip into the oil pan troughs to create a chaos of oil spray within the crank case when the engine is running. If you experience more oil flying around Because of higher oil pump pressure, to me, that would be ok in my mind. My own 1918 Kissel Sedanlette has the same pump you have and when warm, the engine runs fine.

     You should make sure that your three main bearing oil lines are the correct size, as this could impact the flow and thus pressure. 
     Take care. Ron Hausmann P.E.
      
      

6B0E657A-6CAC-429A-8C45-E691E937A2A5.jpeg

2B949CDB-7EFC-4476-9FBD-50DDC91FDB76.jpeg

 

Parts List No. 57 1918c 6-38 100Pt Six a.jpg

Parts List No. 57 1918c 6-38 100Pt Six b.jpg

Parts List 1916 6-38.jpg

Oil pan on 18d.JPG

Oil pan on Roadster d.JPG

Oil pan on Roadster e.JPG

Oil pan on 18b.JPG

Oil pan on 18.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know where the verbiage disappeared to, but with the pictures was the following- Yes it's a splash/ pump system.  Diagrams from 1818c 6-38 Parts List No. 57 100 Point Six and Parts Kit 1916 6-38.  both show an external [regulator\pump?] driven by the cam on the side. Oil coming from the center drain plug & filter assy.  Mine doesn't have the filter and tubing, but does have the big oversized plug.    The modified pan on my 18 with the folded metal corner was made to accommodate the new pump style.  Gear driven and in the back.  Newer pans had the bump incorporated  in the stamping.   All that said I agree, it's probably best to live with it and maybe try 0-30Wt oil and monitor it.    Thank you both for the time to provide guidance.   BTW I did pull the bearing caps and found 0.0015 - 0.002 clearances with Green Plastigage- so probably someone did some work on the engine. 

Parts List 1916 6-38.jpg

Parts List No. 57 1918c 6-38 100Pt Six a.jpg

Parts List No. 57 1918c 6-38 100Pt Six b.jpg

Oil pan on 18b.JPG

Oil pan on 18f.JPG

Rear main & Oil Pump on 18.JPG

Edited by DBKissel
Pictures missing (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug,

   Your engine looks great!
   the original Kissel Hundred Point Six 6-38 parts book which you are showing in these diagrams show the oil pump mounted in the center of the engine, where it obviously is not. I have four Kissel 6-38 Engines and all of them have Have or had pump setups Identical to yours. And all of them have the central oil pump hole, shown on these above diagrams, in their blocks blanked off. See picture below. Additionally those 6-38 camshafts have a special unused cam that could have run a pump. So it looks like kissel originally planned on central oil pumps but changed to rear mounts like yours and mine have, but never changed the parts diagrams.

    In doing these Kissel engines, I keep running into many instances where the Kissel parts diagrams have apparently been superseded By improvements which were never shown in Their brochures. Very frustrating! 
    I’m also attaching pictures of Kissel 6-45 and 6-55 blocks which show their outcropping for oil pumps with relief valves.

    Good luck. Ron

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ron hausmann said:

Doug,

   Your engine looks great!
   the original Kissel Hundred Point Six 6-38 parts book which you are showing in these diagrams show the oil pump mounted in the center of the engine, where it obviously is not. I have four Kissel 6-38 Engines and all of them have Have or had pump setups Identical to yours. And all of them have the central oil pump hole, shown on these above diagrams, in their blocks blanked off. See picture below. Additionally those 6-38 camshafts have a special unused cam that could have run a pump. So it looks like kissel originally planned on central oil pumps but changed to rear mounts like yours and mine have, but never changed the parts diagrams.

    In doing these Kissel engines, I keep running into many instances where the Kissel parts diagrams have apparently been superseded By improvements which were never shown in Their brochures. Very frustrating! 
    I’m also attaching pictures of Kissel 6-45 and 6-55 blocks which show their outcropping for oil pumps with relief valves.

    Good luck. Ron

Thx-  will live with the excess oil P.   /Doug

Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking one look at that wind age tray and I have to say I wouldn’t modify it in any way. The downside is huge. Unless you put an excess pressure dump in one of the lines.......no easy task, and it’s not exactly clear from the photos how the front and rear drain back into the lower portion of the pan.  Strange problem, and the only safe way to get pressure down is make the pump less efficient. Another not very good option.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...