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23 minutes ago, StanleyRegister said:

Hyman Ltd sold the Great Race car a few years ago -

 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/4967-1913-american-underslung-scout-roadster/

 

Their sold archive includes another Scout, a big '13, and the '08 George Corson "overslung" American referred to earlier in the thread.

That’s what I consider the best looking car from the era!! 

Edited by BobinVirginia (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Ok, If you two guys are taking a pass I'd be happy to make room in the garage for that Centerdoor, would make a great stable mate for the Regal Colonial Coupe, a car I've always admired. 

DSCF9175.JPG

Please feel free to share those drawings you got there! I really appreciate that stuff! I didn’t realize there was as many makes with the underslung design. 

Edited by BobinVirginia (see edit history)
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That is just an early 1950's model not so sure how accurate the plans ar. Somewhere around her is a magazine with a Colby underslung chassis photo. When I find it I'll post it. This is turning into one of the best threads on the Forum. Bob

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I believe that is a Brewster carriage style body set down on a car chassis. Brewster was the ultimate carriage and a horse and carriage was the premier mode of travel way beyond the automotive age. For cars like these, to set a Brewster, or Brewster style body down on their chassis held the ultimate appeal to the discriminating upper class for a formal event. The tall, black, square body with the little kick forward at the bottom front is signature Brewster.

Edited by AHa (see edit history)
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@1937hd45

Thanks for the nice comment! 

I’ve always thought the Underslung was very interesting and cool looking. 
I was just hoping to find out where I could go see one soon. Then, the thread just took off and it’s been great!! I guess there’s more people interested in them than I thought. 
They really do stand out to be from a time when cars were still out numbered by horse and buggy! 
That Olds is sweet! There’s still many things I’m learning about cars made pre-depression era. 

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Here are six more in museums -

 

1910 Traveler, Audrain Automobile Museum

https://www.audrainautomuseum.org/shining-bright/1910-american-underslung-kxk7d

2019_Audrain_website.thumb.jpg.334a43264119b9a671142fa8e5514f21.jpg

 

1911 Traveler, at the LA County Museum (may not be on display)LACounty2.thumb.jpg.0add7d16db9be5a7da1a5cae7923ac25.jpg

 

1911, at Seal Cove

https://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/collection-test/1911-american-victoria-underslung/

SealCove.thumb.jpg.d959716e0f04a66a63788e8d121f4e96.jpg

 

1913, at the Indianapolis Speedway Museum -

883866422_2016Indianapolis.thumb.jpg.2886199c6996fab46265b45b24e8f19c.jpg

 

1913 Scout, at Stahl's Auto Collection

https://www.stahlsauto.com/automobiles/1913-american-underslung-scout-type-22a/

2005_Meadowbrook.thumb.jpg.dfacdec69e90a76ec537ab7fae9423cd.jpg

 

1914 644, at the Nethercutt Museum

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2015/04/1911-american-underslung-from.html

Nethercutt.jpg.0c2d1a7c8e4e7fdd5985cb8740899091.jpg

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The blue roadster in photo belongs to Sam Mann.  It is a 1914 Type 642 American.  It is a six cylinder car on a 132 inch wheelbase.  It is the only known survivor with a roadster body.  There are several touring cars that share a similar chassis.  Mann also owns a 1908 American roadster.  

 

Alan 

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11 minutes ago, A Woolf said:

The blue roadster in photo belongs to Sam Mann.  It is a 1914 Type 642 American.  It is a six cylinder car on a 132 inch wheelbase.  It is the only known survivor with a roadster body.  There are several touring cars that share a similar chassis.  Mann also owns a 1908 American roadster.  

 

Alan 

Great car and thanks for that information! Is there a known number of how many American Underslung cars still exist all together? 

Edited by BobinVirginia (see edit history)
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Guys,

A couple of pieces of American Underslung trivia.  The company was originally incorporated as the "American Motor Car Company".  Later the company was reorganized and sometime in 1911 it was changed to "American Motors Company".   AMC in Indianapolis failed and went into receivership in 1914.  The AMC  in Wisconsin that is more familiar to most folks came along much later. 

 

Also a common misconception is that the engines used in the Americans were  called Teetor-Hartley.  The company was based in Hagerstown, Indiana.  Technically that not the correct company name for that period of time when American was in business.  In its early life TH was known as the "Light Inspection Car Company". Their original business was building railroad inspection cars.  In 1915 the company name was changed to Teetor-Hartley.   LICC and TH are the same company but the name was changed.  Teetor and Hartley were family names of the principals of the company.   Yea, I know its too much information but this stuff is part of the deal when researching a restoration. 

 

Regards,

 

Alan 

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19 minutes ago, A Woolf said:

Guys,

A couple of pieces of American Underslung trivia.  The company was originally incorporated as the "American Motor Car Company".  Later the company was reorganized and sometime in 1911 it was changed to "American Motors Company".   AMC in Indianapolis failed and went into receivership in 1914.  The AMC  in Wisconsin that is more familiar to most folks came along much later. 

 

Also a common misconception is that the engines used in the Americans were  called Teetor-Hartley.  The company was based in Hagerstown, Indiana.  Technically that not the correct company name for that period of time when American was in business.  In its early life TH was known as the "Light Inspection Car Company". Their original business was building railroad inspection cars.  In 1915 the company name was changed to Teetor-Hartley.   LICC and TH are the same company but the name was changed.  Teetor and Hartley were family names of the principals of the company.   Yea, I know its too much information but this stuff is part of the deal when researching a restoration. 

 

Regards,

 

Alan 

Share any and all of that information you’d like. I enjoy learning these things. Without passing that knowledge it’s lost to time in many cases. Thanks for sharing! 

Edited by BobinVirginia (see edit history)
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56 minutes ago, A Woolf said:

The blue roadster in photo belongs to Sam Mann.  It is a 1914 Type 642 American.  It is a six cylinder car on a 132 inch wheelbase.  It is the only known survivor with a roadster body.  There are several touring cars that share a similar chassis.  Mann also owns a 1908 American roadster.  

 

Alan 

Is the 1908 Sam Mann Roadster an older restoration and all white? It may have been the one in the Gooding auction at Pebble Beach 2019. Bob 

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, StanleyRegister said:

A wonderful car with a long history.  Here it is in 1949, owned by D. Cameron Peck. 

1949-05-21_AACASkokie.thumb.jpg.af84b53736f7e4e1129aceb619a7d002.jpg

 

It appears to be essentially unchanged to this day.  (At least to 2014.)2014_Amelia.jpg.b12d8407feaec81c1b450fafa4c5b89a.jpg

 

 

Look close, it's been rerestored. Look at the wheel stripes, running board with no holes in it after the tank was removed..........killer car. 

   

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The late Bud Melby (well know car collector here in the PNW) had an American in his collection. I was treated to a private guided tour of his collection before he passed away a few years ago. I was there to purchase another car and he took my friend and I on a personal tour. I remember him rummaging around in the trunk of the Underslung as he pulled out treasures he had collected. One was Thomas Alva Edison’s watch. Then he handed me a piece of paper which was from Las Vegas. It was a gun permit for Elvis Presley.  Then a heartbeat later he had Elvis’ handgun. Those were just a few of the amazing things he showed us that day. What I remember most was how he presented his stuff to us. It wasn’t a rich guy showing off, everything he showed us was with wonderment in his voice that said, “How cool is this?” I know some of his collection has been sold/auctioned off since he passed and I have no idea if the Underslung was one of those sold. My friend and I both will remember him and that day forever.

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@StanleyRegister

@edinmass

On that car or brass era cars. Is there a way to determine the original color combinations or are photos and remnants of paint the only way to tell? 
I’ve noticed that there isn’t much information on a body tag like that on early cars. 
Are there any paint code records left as to what they could’ve been? Guess it depends on manufacturers? I’m sure the custom coach builders just painted to suit the individual buying the car. Just wondering how some of the colors are chosen for restoration on the earliest cars. 
 

Thanks

 

BTW I really like the Blue and white on the car better than the previous color combo

Edited by BobinVirginia (see edit history)
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On 11/2/2020 at 3:58 PM, 1937hd45 said:

That is truly amazing, the guy that made is fame and fortune modifying Ford "9 Inch" near axles actylly ran something other than the Ford inside a Packard housing. Bob 

  That's a good observation and may be true, but GAR inspections never tore anything down.   You hear all kinds of stuff, especially

   about the winners.

  I  once heard that a Model T had a powerglide transmission in the T Transmission housing.  Who knows?

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8 hours ago, A Woolf said:

Guys,

A couple of pieces of American Underslung trivia.  The company was originally incorporated as the "American Motor Car Company".  Later the company was reorganized and sometime in 1911 it was changed to "American Motors Company".   AMC in Indianapolis failed and went into receivership in 1914.  The AMC  in Wisconsin that is more familiar to most folks came along much later. 

 

Also a common misconception is that the engines used in the Americans were  called Teetor-Hartley.  The company was based in Hagerstown, Indiana.  Technically that not the correct company name for that period of time when American was in business.  In its early life TH was known as the "Light Inspection Car Company". Their original business was building railroad inspection cars.  In 1915 the company name was changed to Teetor-Hartley.   LICC and TH are the same company but the name was changed.  Teetor and Hartley were family names of the principals of the company.   Yea, I know its too much information but this stuff is part of the deal when researching a restoration. 

 

Regards,

 

Alan 

 

Hi Alan. I am aware of the Light Inspection Car  company name.  But I believe the Teetor name  is in some case applied to the engines themselves  prior to 1915.  The  cast Aluminum water 

outlet on the 4 Cyl. , mono block T head  is variously cast with American, Staver Chicago or Teetor. names. It is possible the Teetor cast outlets do post date 1915 but by then the T head

engine was very long in tooth and may not have even been in production. Certainly Staver and American had stopped production of cars in 1914 although Pilot may have continued with the 

Monoblock T head into 1915. My water outlet is indeed cast Teetor however it is most likely not original  to my 1912 car and could have conceivably come from a 1915 Pilot.

Does your engine have a makers plate on the crankcase ? I have seen photos that show Teetor in large font at the top of the plate  and Light Inspection Car Co in smaller font at the bottom.

The one photo shows this plate applied to a mono block 4 cyl engine so most likely a pre 1915 engine.

 

Greg

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Greg,

Reading back through what I wrote it makes it seem there are no exceptions to the badging of the engines earlier in life of what became Teetor-Hartley.  I think you make a good point about the various marking on engines especially when it bore the name of the company the engine was sold to. One thing I have learned about old cars is there are almost always exceptions to what is believed to be common knowledge. During my restoration I wound up with two engines.  There is no data plate on either engine I have and no obvious provision to mount a data plate. The only badging is on the valve covers. I have a stack of valve cover plates, some plain and some marked. Two of the valve cover plates I decided use are marked with the Teetor name.  See the photo.

 

BTW if Teetor really patented their engines I have never found the patent document.  It would be interesting to see what they claimed as unique.

Alan

 

20201103_170122.thumb.jpg.82c95c0607e6d2a5a30c423f5c8362e8.jpg

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Hi Bob, it is a nice looking engine. I believe the American Tourist version differs from all the conventional frame versions { Staver , Pilot, Auburn } in that 

the mounting bosses extend lower because of the significantly different frame used on the American. Otherwise as far as I know they are all the same. 

There are a few minor differences depending on the year. Very late engines have a provision to mount a generator and starter. And very early engines 

have a different exhaust set up , so a different block casting on the first version.

It's a total splash lubrication engine , so that is sometimes perceived as a shortcoming for modern touring. As well the base flange on the block casting 

is a bit weak for sustained high speed use. Cracks and outright failure has happened on at least a few engines at the base flange.

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The following photos were taken at Amelia in 2104.  There was an Underslung class at the Concours that year.

 

1914 American Type 644 from the Nethercutt Collection

DSC08020.thumb.JPG.674b55ae98a839136716b2fd6dd7ba7b.JPG

 

American Scout 

DSC08083.thumb.JPG.3aa6b2110d2f07a73fcaee294bf91925.JPG

 

In the foreground - 1908 American owned by Sam Mann.  In the background 1914 American Type 666

DSC08076.thumb.JPG.c6d33a7d06dc7cf44476cadb9f3908ac.JPG

 

 

DSC08002.JPG

Edited by A Woolf
ASW (see edit history)
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Hi Alan. The photo I have a copy of states patented Jan, 10 { possibly 16, the number is a bit unclear } , 1910. The plate is on what looks to be a fairly early mono block 4 ,

at the factory. A brand new but assembled engine. The motor mount bolt holes have not been drilled or threaded yet.  Possibly that step was done at the car builders factory

after the engine was delivered. It would make sense for an engine that was sold to a number of different car builders .

 

Greg

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I know your main interest is the 6 Cyl. cars, but do you happen to have any decent engine photo's of the circa 1912 - 13 Tourist 4 Cyl. engine ? If so I would be very interested in seeing them. 

I am still trying to concretely pin down if there is a motor mount boss casting difference between the American engines and the conventional frame engines. Quite a few photo's of the cars themselves 

on the net but almost nothing of any of the mechanical details.

 This is the best I have found so far , from an American sales brochure. Notice the mounting casting extends below the oil pan parting surface.

Greg

image.png.03181d3f06e82e518b13c6b305961363.png

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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It appears that the L I C Co. was succeeded by the Teetor-Hartley Co. in January 1914.  American Motors was bankrupt by March, so that would explain the scarcity (or non-existence) of Teetor-Hartley engines in Underslungs.  It's interesting that the Frank Miller quote earlier in the thread speaks of a T-H engine in his 1913.

 

Also interesting, light inspection cars continued to be produced by Teetor-Hartley and later spinoff Indiana Piston Ring Co., as late as 1921.

1914-01-08_HagerstownINExponent_LIC_TH.jpg

1914-03-09_IndianapolisNews.jpg

1914-05_RailroadTelegrapher_LIC.jpg

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Teetor continued to produce engines until about 1917 for Pilot and possibly Auburn. The later L head engines are completely different from earlier engines. A one piece casting for the block with a pair of detachable

heads similar to most later teens / 1920's engines. Several years ago there was a thread that shows a couple of pictures of one of the final generation engines.

 After about 1917 Teetor increasingly concentrated on producing piston rings  and ultimately the company became Perfect Circle piston ring Co.

There are a couple of books as well that cover Teetor Hartley, and The Light Inspection Car Co. and the Teetor family.

 

Greg

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Walter Seeley's first Antique Automobile article covers the early Underslungs reasonably well, and even a bit of information about the conventional chassis Americans that came before the Underslungs.

. The engines appear to be 4 Cyl. ,L heads, aluminum crankcases with pairs of cast iron cylinder barrels. It was a Teetor / Light inspection car engine. I am not sure if they also supplied the engines used 

in the conventional chassis Americans . Seeley's two articles are extremely well researched and well worth reading for anyone interested in American Underslungs. They are the best source 

I know of regarding American.

 

Greg

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Per the Seely article and as far as I can determine every engine in an American car was supplied by LICC/TH.

 

I believe this list of minor engine manufacturers came from the Society of Automobile Historians.  It gives some of the manufacturers that LICC/TH sold engines to but it is not complete.  As Greg has pointed out Staver used LICC/TH engines. Also they don't list any of the pre-1912 engines that were sold to American. 

 

Engine_Manufacturers-004.thumb.jpg.181cb920407888d14a780e38cb43b685.jpg

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LICC also made engines for Overland.  The attached set of articles indicates that 6000 were ordered, presumably the entire 1909 season.  If this is so, they weren't T-heads, as the 1909 catalog pictures confirm.  Are there other aspects of these engines that resemble LICC work?

 

1908-04-09_RichmondINPalladiumItem_Overland.jpg.dcc8da9eb1d8bc21437c09ebcbd4aca7.jpg

 

1908-11-13_RichmondINItem_Overland.thumb.jpg.9b04e7425200837097a9461a9b63ab3a.jpg

 

1909-06-15_RichmondINItem_Overland.jpg.94cac47a5534b1bd778dde1cbb70e5f3.jpg

 

1909_Overland_4.jpg.67b4b975625e36e24910ea7945196ef8.jpg

1909_Overland_6.jpg.2e19bd48a700d7ba27f70fcc5f740bb7.jpg

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I don't see any design resemblance between these Overland engines and the other products of L.I.C. Co. I expect Overland did the design work themselves { or contracted it out }

and L.I.C. Co. just made them to Overland's specification.

 

Greg

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