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Estate help needed


Buffalowed Bill

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I hope that the topic is suitable for this part of the forum. This is a copy that I posted in another forum.

 

Estate help needed

Today, 03:19 PM
I just found out about a close friend's passing. He lived in Southern California (Lancaster) and that is where his seventeen cars are located. What I'm looking for are some recommendations for someone who can organize the collection for sale.

About fifteen years ago my friend asked if I would take care of the sale of his collection if he went before I did. He offered me my choice of cars for helping. I told him it wasn't necessary, but when he said that he wanted me to have one anyway, I gave him my choice. The subject was never brought up again. Out of sight out of mind-I hoped it would just go away, or be forgotten. Well it's here and I fear that the vultures have already began to descend.

At age seventy six and with the pandemic, fires in California, thirteen hundred miles separating us, it just does not make any sense to venture out. His widow is brokenhearted and not a very patient person. In addition she was not in full approval with his collection, anyway. I don't know what she might commit to, so to save her, and to protect the legessie of my dear friend, I need some assistance.

Bill

 

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A lot depends on the condition of the cars. You could consider an auction and sell them at no reserve. If the cars are in good condition, auction houses like Mecum often liquidate estates as part of a collection at their auctions. There is the problem of logistics in getting the cars to their venue, but I’m sure they can provide some assistance. If the cars can’t feasibly be moved, you could consider an on site auction. Vandebrink auctions hold sales at the sellers location. 
 

Im sure  others will give their experiences also.

 

Kevin

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It depends on what type of cars they are as well.  That can also make a difference in how you sell them or who you choose to sell them.  Are they all restored or projects?  What era are they from if you don't want to give particulars.  Vanderbirnk seems to work the midwest.  I dont know if I have ever seen any of her auctions that far out.  Can you provide us with a little more details.  

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I would think that you would need an attorney. Do the car's all have paperwork, titles, registrations, etc? Who is the legal heir to his property, (cars)? Whatever your friend told you is simply hearsay and not legal. What does his widow want and who are the vultures you mention? Lot's to consider. 

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First you have to see if the cars are mentioned in his estate and what instructions he might have left.  Here in PA everything goes to the surviving spouse unless the Will says otherwise.  You will have to be in contact with the estate lawyer and the spouse to determine what happens next.  Good luck!

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First you need to know the legal disposition of the estate. If there's no will, then probate court will probably decide the widow gets everything. Or maybe one of the kids contests it. That makes things sticky. Until things are finalized legally, there's nothing you can or should do. If the widow tells you to sell the cars but one of the kids decides he or she wants it, that makes all kinds of headaches. Let them finalize the estate and put everything into place legally before you do anything.

 

However, there's something important you can do to help right away. We deal with a lot of widows and next-of-kin and someone needs to get the cars out of sight and tied up so that all the vultures don't start pestering the widow. You know, the guys who knew about the cars and will inevitably show up and start saying, "Well, you know Bob and I were close and he really wanted me to have these cars. He said at one time I could buy them for $XXXX." They're like mosquitos and will hound her relentlessly and make her miserable. If you're The Guy who is helping with the cars, you need to make it well-known that the cars are tied up and not available so don't ask. I can't tell you how many widows show up in our shop and eventually end up in tears talking about how awful her late husband's "friends" treated her trying to get their hands on the cars.


If the cars exist, you should at least try to go see them and assess their condition, determine their specifics, and maybe start working up some comparable values so that you can speak with some authority when someone asks you what they're worth. You could also start making sure the titles are in order, or at least that they match the cars and can be reliably transferred. They will probably have to go through the estate, but if they're from 1968 with a dead guy's signature on them, well, you can run into some problems settling the estate and selling the cars. Paperwork can take a long time to sort out; start now so you know what will need to be done.

 

There's a lot to do if you're the go-to guy the family wants to handle the disposition of the cars. Start your homework now, help the widow by putting out the word that the cars are not currently available, and be there for her as a reliable friend, not an opportunist (not that you would do that). Let her work through this at her own pace and be there to support her and offer advice when asked. Don't push her, just let her know that when she's ready, you're her partner to solve this problem. Most likely she will just want them gone ASAP without worrying about squeezing every penny out of them, so you should respect that even if you think you can get more. She probably just wants to put it all away, so respect that. Selling them fast for 85% of their value is better than holding out for years to get 100%. 

 

Respect the widow first and foremost. Make her life easier during this difficult time. That really matters.

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A big pile of cars is always a disaster........if everyone is currently running, by the time the estate is ready to sell them, they probably won’t run. Location is remote. Question is......value of the cars. Most of the time, unless the car is worth over 50k, it’s not worth moving or making it run. If it’s 17 cars all worth under 20k each, it’s going to be difficult to get a broker involved. 

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Bill I appreciate you desire to fulfill the wish of your late friend but there is something you haven't mentioned and that is the wife ASKING you to assist her in the disposal of the collection.  Until that happens I would do nothing.  The husbands wishes may be a moot point especially if she had no personal interest in the collection.

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

There's a lot to do if you're the go-to guy the family wants to handle the disposition of the cars

If you have been appointed the "go to guy" i would ask for a written agreement laying out what your function and responsibilities are.  Are you willing to do this on your dime or do you expect to have your direct expenses paid out of the proceeds.  Actually in your last paragraph you describe conditions that preclude you from being the "go to" guy other than assisting from afar.  Having been involved in helping settle the estate of a dear friend (AACA past president} my advice would be to stay on the bench until asked to get in the game.  Estate's bring out the worst in people.  Just my TCW

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I have tried twice now to pick up a rather valuable car for a museum.

 

This time I took a more direct approach by texting the daughter of the deceased owner who has possession of the car.

 

The estate has been settled - the will was not disputed - the car was stipulated to go to the museum.

 

The daughter texted me back she was not donating the car.

 

 

Jim

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7 minutes ago, Trulyvintage said:

I have tried twice now to pick up a rather valuable car for a museum.

 

This time I took a more direct approach by texting the daughter of the deceased owner who has possession of the car.

 

The estate has been settled - the will was not disputed - the car was stipulated to go to the museum.

 

The daughter texted me back she was not donating the car.

 

 

Jim


 

Nothing new there.....

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1 minute ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Money, Money, Money, Money...  Or as some would say, MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!


 

Doesn’t matter, the car is only worth twenty percent of what they think it is........

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8 hours ago, edinmass said:


 

Doesn’t matter, the car is only worth twenty percent of what they think it is........

 

 

If she lets the museum have it,  she can probably get it back for the 20% when they send it to auction in a year or two.   I think people fantasize about their car being displayed at the Louvre next to the Mona Lisa, when in fact it will go in storage and be sent to auction to pay the museum carry costs eventually.

 

But back on topic,  there is great advice in this thread.    My two cents:

 

1.  How the estate plays out means everything.  I'm not familiar with California.   In Mass,  if the titles are in both names the cars now belong to the wife.

 

2.  I have no idea what the cars are,  but Ed's point about them being a mess will probably be true.   That many cars required a full time caretaker doing nothing but exercise and maintaining them,  else they will need a lot of work.

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Howe many times have you ever seen an old car that wasn't a mess? I can honestly state there are less than ten collectors I know of who ALWAYS do things the right way. The worst offenders are the trailer queen guys........lots of paint......and no correct repairs. 

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I've seen more friendships ruined and families torn apart over estate issues than I can count. Send the wife a nice note with your condolences and mention that when the estate is settled you would be available to help her sell the cars if she so wishes.

Then forget about it unless or until she contacts you.

You will have fulfilled your promise to your friend but don't count on ever driving your promised car.........Bob

 

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If the vultures are descending, there are some cars in the collection that have perceived value. Still, 15 years is a long time. It would be interesting to know if the car Bill wanted has his name on the title or is otherwise marked as his. I think not. Most people have great intentions but once someone has passed, the biggest vultures are the ones in  his own family. Since the deceased no longer have a say in the matter, what they wanted to happen rarely does.

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Thanks Ed for the contact information. Include a list as complete as I can remember. I hope for more information.

Thanks to you folks who have responded. I know car values, but the uncertainty, the fickleness of the market, and the condition of the cars, could draw out the process. This is where juggling an equitable longer term solution, with the emotions of a grieving widow, becomes problematic. I have two well thought of individuals in the area interested in looking at the collection. Regardless of how it was left with me, there seems to be no mention of me being empowered to make any legal agreements. So my job is going to be advisory, the compensation that I originally reluctantly agreed to would be just word of mouth, so I'll just ignore what was said. The car that I was offered fifteen years ago for my help and as a rememberance needs to be part of the leverage for taking the whole collection. I know how a car persons curiosity runs, so I'll give you a quick sketch of the collection, sans condition(and as per my memory). The first two cars are the plumbs of the collection, but all of the have been off the road for decades, and kept in dry storage.
1)1969 Porsche 911
2)1956 Chrysler 300B
3)1956 Imperial 2dr htp
4)1956 Imperial 4dr htp
5)1956 Imperial 4dr sedan
6)1954 Studebaker Commander Starliner 2dr htp
7)1947 Lincoln Continental convertible
8)1970s ? Dodge Dart 2dr htp
9)1965 Oldsmobile Starfire? 2dr htp
10)1960's ? Mustang
11) Model T
12) 1972? Toyota Corolla coupe-beautiful all original
13)2002? Ford Lightning PU
14)1962 Lark 4 dr

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All are original-paint, interior drive train. Most are PNW cars so they didn't suffer from the ravages of sun, hail or salt. There were a few Southern California cars added after his relocation. That doesn't preclude minimal rust, but only a line item inspection would uncover that. Before my friend relocated I rode in, or drove many of these cars. 

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3 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

Seems like a good list of desirable cars. If they are priced market correct I can't see any mutt's in  

the bunch.


 

I disagree.......the location, and unknown condition severely limit the value and possibility that a professional will take on the collection. Time and money just to make the cars run is a losing proposition. I would expect a broker/dealer to cherry pick what is there according to condition and blow out the rest. How many hours can you spend dealing with cars valued in the price range more than half the stuff will bring. There are three cars that might be worth the effort to broker for top dollar, the rest..........is as a good friend and car guy says....is swill. Sad, but true in today’s market.

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Cherry picking is not an option. I know that there are at least two cars that should be the leverage to allow for sell all the cars together. Several times in someone's life that he has to step out of his comfort zone, on the behalf of someone in need. I'm doing this for my friend of forty seven years and his family. However this turns out I don't want to have be faced with having to ask myself if I did all that I could have. 

Edited by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)
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Bill......I understand the point of all or nothing,.....it makes perfect sense. That would be my demand also. A professional will step back, figure out time and effort, and EXPENSE......yes, selling cars has an opportunity cost associated with it. The four door sedans are five times the work to sell than the Porsche. Using round numbers to make things easier.........say retail on all the cars is 100. Actual price after market conditions, location, time of year, and a hundred other things means the “out number” to move the cars in say six months is 75. Then you need to figure out advertising and other expenses....and your at 70. The dealer will want at least 20 to deal with that many cars.....maybe more......and now we are at 50 to the lady......if all the cars have clear titles. So, already her in hand number is half of the sales price. Add in unreasonable expectations of retail selling price.........and that’s usually twice or more than reality........and it all becomes difficult for the time, effort, expectations, and reality for the professional to deal with. Selling all those cars is a huge amounts of work. That’s why in the end, I very rarely sell off collections for people. A single car, or two I do all the time. If the friends wife becomes demanding, emotional, or as often happens with the loss she is going through, she becomes difficult to work with..........you see my point. I often times tell families to just get rid of it all in 30 days, and accept the fact that a “fire sale” in the end is best for all involved. Squeezing the money out of the top two or three does make sense. Dealing with all the rest doesn’t. Often times, it may take months or even years for the family to figure all of this out.......it’s not their fault, as most times the husband gives his opinion that his car he has fifty grand in is worth 125.......when in reality it’s worth 20. All of the above is why I prefer to fix cars instead of brokering them........my hourly pay is a guarantee for income. Selling a car is not. Add in all the internet jerks........I don’t know how the guys like Matt deal with it all. “Would you take 15k for the Corvette worth 80k asking price?” Stuff like that gets old fast, and bottom feeders are 90 percent of the calls.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ This can only be a nightmare to get involved in. 


Having just been through all of this..........did you imagine when it started how hard, time consuming, and emotional the journey would be? Fortunately you reached out, and many generous people helped you......and I think you found a new group of friends through  it all..........but your above comment is 300 percent correct. And, just for the record........I think you handled your situation better than 99 percent of the people who have done this. Watching you go through it was hard for many of us here.........as we have also been there.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 10/29/2020 at 4:33 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

 

 I don't know what she might commit to, so to save her, and to protect the legessie of my dear friend, I need some assistance.

Bill

 


Bill

 

Find out what she is willing to commit to - everything begins and ends there.

 

 

Jim

Edited by Trulyvintage (see edit history)
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I don't envy you your job having to do this from long distance. If it were me I would find someone reliable and auction them off and be done with it. Especially if the widow is having trouble dealing with the situation. 

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8 hours ago, edinmass said:


Having just been through all of this..........did you imagine when it started how hard, time consuming, and emotional the journey would be? Fortunately you reached out, and many generous people helped you......and I think you found a new group of friends through  it all..........but your above comment is 300 percent correct. And, just for the record........I think you handled your situation better than 99 percent of the people who have done this. Watching you go through it was hard for many of us here.........as we have also been there.

Thank you. There is no way I could have predicted how hard it would be. In my case, I had no choice but to deal with it or abandon my father with no one else left to take care of his medical needs and property, which I could not do. I have serious health issues from the experience to this day. I do not recommend it to anyone. 
 

I was so blessed to have all of you to help. Many times, alone in Texas, the conversations were the only thing that kept me going. Thank you all. 
 

I wish the OP the best, but I would be concerned for possible legal issues as well, for him to be involved. Also, anything promised without legal backup is not worth much. I hope it all works out well for you. 

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Re having been promised a specific car, or your pick of the litter:  When my mother left her house to go to assisted living almost 25 years ago, she was giving us five kids our choices of furnishings she wasn't taking--but we quickly found that she had promised the same items to 3 or 4 or all 5 different kids over the years....  I'm hoping your friend didn't also do that, Bill, but be prepared for the possibility....

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Thanks to all who have responded. Having no dog in the fight, creates some real problems, but also some definite personal benefits to me. Early on I abdicated any thought of getting the car promised to me. Last night as we were trying to celebrate my Sweetie's belated birthday I was talking to one of the involved participants on the phone. I was trying to get across that I wasn't getting a nickle out of this. The women in the room began laughing and interjecting things like not even a plug nickle, not even a wooden nickle. With each comment the laughing got louder. Was it the situation, the second glass of wine, or just the festive mood it really doesn't matter. What I'm trying say is that no matter what the day to day, imagined plans, or focus had been everything changed in the middle of the week. But it's a disruption that periodically all of us will have to face. In this situation, if not me who? It's not a situation that I looked forward to, but now that it's here, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. 

 

Ed-We're on the same page. I did my calculations a little differently then you did, I'm a little more optimistic on value then you are, but I'm trying to be realistic. If this was in my backyard I would probably knock myself out trying to prepare each car for it's appropriate audience. Nothing in the situation lends itself to that kind of diligence. 

 

Vitoria-We all watch your life changing saga. Everyone was touched by what you went through. But at least you had a certain amount of control over the process. I think you earned our undying admiration. But I know that is not why you did what needed to be done.

 

Bill 

Edited by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)
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I have been involved in a similar situation. One of my best friends of over 50 years passed away. His wife asked me to help her in liquidating the hundreds of part's that her husband collected over the years. We went to every swap meet, including HERSHEY every year so I knew what he had. I also have a key to his shop and spent two or three nights in the shop and every Saturday working on his cars. Over time, I put aside some of the parts that I want to purchase from his estate, (his wife). When it came down to the purchase, the number she quoted me was several hundred dollars more than what he had purchased them for. I tried to explain what the parts were realistically worth, she wouldn't hear it and I did not get to purchase them. Also, she changed the lock to the shop so my key no longer works and when I explained that there are many of my personal tools including a Miller welder in the shop, she told me that unless I can prove what tools are mine, nothing is leaving the shop. Luckily I had the receipt for the welder, so I finally got it back and she can keep the rest of my tools. Just be careful.

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