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1908 New York to Paris Race


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The 1908 NY to Paris race was billed as a competition between US and European manufacturers.  I just finished reading George Schuster's book about it.  He never mentioned why the Thomas was the only US participant.  He said there were 3 other US cars entered, but they didn't show, including a Maxwell, White, and Hol Tan, but again, never mentioned why.  With a multitude of manufacturers in the US by then, why weren't there more US participants?

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The same could be asked about why so few participants from Europe, as well. However, it was an event that the entire world thought was impossible, so that probably had something to do with it. That, and the cost to support a team was not cheap. The only reason Thomas was entered was because of a personal plea by President Roosevelt to E. R. Thomas to put a car in the race.

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I love studying history! Have read this in several places, including extensive articles published in hobby magazines a few decades ago. The big reason the previous entrants dropped out of the race in 1908, was that there was a sudden and deep financial recession that hit early in 1908. The automobile industry was still quite young, and mostly not yet strong financially. It had taken more than a year for organizers to get the plans and backing in place to run the race. A few automobile companies had jumped on board from the beginning planning stages, with full intentions to run in the race. However as the starting date approached, the significant recession hit. All the companies that had planned to run backed out, preferring to hang onto their financial reserves not knowing whether the recession was going to be a major or minor event. 

Teddy Roosevelt knew E. R. Thomas, both being from New York state, and major players in the business and politics of the state. I have read that it was T Roosevelt that asked E. R. Thomas to run for the good of the nation, but I do not know any details and am not certain of that fact.

It turned out that the recession was not severe, and by the end of 1908 business was back to being good. If you can find a good listing of automobile production throughout that decade, you would find that production for nearly all marques was fairly flat relative to 1907. All other years in that decade showed giant leaps in production, and by 1909 was again climbing fast!

 

The Thomas entry was at the proverbial last minute. George Schuster was one of Thomas' engineers and test drivers. Although Thomas was already producing the 1908 models, George Schuster was not happy about several changes they had made in the cars. So he insisted to E. R. Thomas that they use a left over new and not sold 1907 chassis they had in the warehouse. He believed the '07 model to be better and more reliable than the new '08. The body was altered, larger gasoline tanks added, and room to carry tires, tools, and even more gasoline. The fenders were replaced by boards and canvas which could be easily removed and placed on the ground to run the tires over on soft mud or sand (that is a really SLOW way to travel, and if you have ever done such a thing for even a very short way, you would REALLY appreciate what these men went through!).

Edited by wayne sheldon
Left a word out? (see edit history)
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Its a fascinating story, and if you ever get to see Jeff Mahl's presentation, it's not to be missed.  Jeff is the Great Grandson of George Schuster.  I saw the presentation for the first time in 2010 as part of the AACA 75th Anniversary celebration in Louisville. He was in a Thomas Flyer from Harold Coker's collection and it seemed like we were witnessing history directly from the source.

One thing that's always puzzled me as a collector of automobilia, as significant an event as it was, there does not seem to be a tremendous number of artifacts remaining except for several written accounts and postcards.  The photo included here shows Jeff with the original car.

Terry

Jeff Mahl.jpg

Edited by Terry Bond (see edit history)
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I've always been fascinated by the story of the Thomas, first read something as a kid. The economic piece has a lot to do with current events. Another factor is that as roads improved, car design changed rapidly and one major difference between Europe and the US is that we have miles and miles of miles and miles. In Florida big V8s and GALBs were popular for soaking up long distanced on straight roads with little in the middle (Florida still has a stretch of the turnpike south of Orlando : 100 near straight (can tell when nearing Ft. Pierce by the big curve to the south) miles with one exit. Way out west it is even more so.

 

Today a car is expected to run from O'town to Nawlins  (600+ miles) at 70ish with maybe one stop. American cars reflect this.

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11 hours ago, West Peterson said:

However, it was an event that the entire world thought was impossible,

Actually you can say the race was impossible for a car to complete the full race as planed. The terrain was so bad in the US west the Thomas road the tracks for a distance. The European cars were not allowed to follow the Thomas so they sent their cars by rail and were penalized for it. Another area of the race the cars could not traverse I believe was in Alaska. Sorry I do not remember the details but again the European cars were penalized. The penalty's involved adding time on their clock when they crossed the finish line. So yes the race was impossible at the time because of bad roads, terrain and weather. But what the cars did traverse during the race was a great accomplishment for the time. 

I also meet Jeff Mahl at Hershey two years ago and Terry is spot on that Jeff is a very knowledgeable terrific guy. 

Edited by Joe in Canada (see edit history)
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How many of the cars survive today?  I believe both the Zust and Protos are in museums, but are there others?

An even greater challenge was the predecessor event - the 1907 Peking to Paris race.  The Italia survives and currently resides in an Italian museum, although when I first saw it many years ago, it was in the National Motor Museum in Beaulieu, Englnd.  The Dutch Spyker also survives,

Terry

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The actual 1906 Zust that was on the race has been restored and in in private ownership on Vancouver Island. I've seen this car a number of times. It is a wonderful car and a great piece of history.

Ken

 

ZUST_1906_01.jpg

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7 minutes ago, KLF said:

The actual 1906 Zust that was on the race has been restored and in in private ownership on Vancouver Island. I've seen this car a number of times. It is a wonderful car and a great piece of history.

Ken

 

ZUST_1906_01.jpg

Here is a photo of the Zust as it was raced.

Zust.jpg

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Hol Tan were the first importers of Lancia cars to USA,  And it seems that even the earliest Lancia Alpha from 1906-7 came to your north-East in small numbers.    In 1980 I saw one that Alan Clendenon of Anahiem ( spelling?)  had, which he said no-one was much interested in at a museum auction.  He had made it more complete and original,  and was in process of sale to an airline pilot.     Just over a year ago Geoff Goldberg was here in Victoria for the biennial event for Lancia Cars.    I had my 1911 Lancia Delta set out largely in pieces so he could see the characteristics and details.  I told Geoff about the indicated intention for Hol Tan to enter a car in the NY to Paris Race.   But it is likely that Vincenso Lancia would have dismissed the idea as rash and risky.   A few years later Lancias may have been faster with better stamina for such an event; but having a water pump enclosed within the front of the crankcase and driven from the timing gears would not have been ideal.   The need to regularly drain water from the engine oil would not have been a happy task.  I believe that Hol Tan may have had agencies for other cars  then or later.  I feel that Geoff is a very diligent historical researcher;  but I suspect that the real probability that Lancia was a prospective entrant for that event would have been about the square root of minus one.

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I seem to recall someone telling me that their daughter went to Europe. Saw the German car in a museum there.

So we have the Zust on Vancouver Island. The Protos in Germany. The Thomas is in Reno. Anyone heard tell of the De Dion? 

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Very nice to read of the people mentioned who were involved with the Thomas Flyer then and now. But if it wasn't for one collector who owned the car for decades and saved it ,the car would not exist at all - Henry Austin Clark Jr.  It sat in his Long  Island Automovitve Museum on display in " as found" condition for decades. Today the condition it was in when Austin owned it would be proclaimed as "patina". Austin tried for ever to get George Schuster to look at the car, Schuster refused to do so and told Austin numerous times that the car he drove didn't exist , and would not go see the car - Austin even offered to go pick Mr. Schuster up at his home, drive him to see the car and return him . Mr. Schuster would not do it. It drove Austin crazy, he was so disapointed.

It is not until Austin sold the car to Bill Harrah and they undertook a restoration the Mr. Schuster decided to accept Bill Harrah's  offer to go out and see the car as it was being restored - which did happen and to Mr. Schuster's amazement " it was indeed the car ".

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I wonder why Austin didn't take the car to Schuster? Hindsight is always 20/20. From my perspective, knowing the car was the correct NY to Paris car would mean everything, even though I would also think an imposter would be unlikely and I understand Austin Clark had a huge collection of very important cars. History seems very fickle.

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When Austin owned the car it was totally unrestored, no or poor tires, somewhat fragile. Schuster lived in NY State above NY City the car was in Southampton NY 100 miles east of NY City.  Made some sense to transport one person out and back then arrange to get the car on a trailer, out and back.

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Many years ago I acquired Bob Laurens' large collection of memoribillia he had gathered over many years. Bob was an AACA officer in the late 1940's and participated in many National Meets and Gldden Tours. Among his many friends was Montague Roberts (AACA Honorary Member) who was a race driver for Thomas and a protege of Harry Houpt. I have the original paper signed by Roberts of a talk he gave at the February 18, 1950 AACA Annual Meeting in which he describes his involvement in the NY to Paris race. In the describes how he selected the 1907 car since it was one in which he "....... had won many events with this car in 1907 ......I knew the car and had a lot of confidence in it." The speech goes on to describe in detail the race from NY City to Cheyenne, Wyoming where Shuster took over. Towards the end of the talk Roberts makes some interesting comments such as "There has been some controversy as to whether or not the car now owned by H. A. Clark, Jr. and now on display in the Museum at Southhampton, Long Island, is the original Thomas car. I personally feel it is; however the fact that it is can be proven, I think."

 

I have a picture of the car on display in 1948 with Montague behind the wheel. The car is in atrocious condition and it is no wonder that it was difficult to determine whether it was the famous car. Hopefully I can attach it to this post.

img339.jpg

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I believe that Harrah's found the weld made to the chassis that convinced George Shuster that "oh yeah it is the car" after all, after he finally made the trip to Reno to inspect the car.

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Looking at the car above I can see why there was confusion. By the 1950s there were many early cars in this condition. It is interesting to learn the NY to Paris car evidently participated is several race events before the round the world event and was chosen because of its performance in these earlier events. I remember reading it was rebodied for the round the world race but failed to appreciate what that phrase meant. Are there any period photos of a Thomas race car?

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"Thomas road the tracks " - rode ? I shudder to think what that did to their spines. Was it routed as a special train ? Elsewhere I saw that the "rebody" was a new '07 chassis which was felt to be more reliable, updated to appear as an '08.

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I am surprised to see the car on a two wheel trailer?  I assumed the early cars were built like tanks and weighed about the same?  I thought the Thomas would crush that trailer?

 

Now that looks like an adventure, leaving Buffalo NY.   Can you imagine even just riding along?

 

image.thumb.png.71491fd364c3dcf5c795851e03b14719.png

Notice the auxiliary fuel tank on the side of the Thomas?  That must be 30 gallons? no tank on the restored car.

 

This Car Matters; the Thomas Flyer

 

Link to the HVA story

 

Edited by Graham Man (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

In the describes how he selected the 1907 car since it was one in which he "....... had won many events with this car in 1907 ......I knew the car and had a lot of confidence in it."

Mr Ballard is quoting Montague Roberts, a race car driver for Thomas, from a talk he gave concerning the car at the AACA meeting in 1952. Read Mr Ballard's post above. Evidently this same car was raced in 1907 by Roberts and performed admirably.

Edited by AHa (see edit history)
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George Schuster was a driver / mechanic and the only one of the American team who went the entire distance in the Thomas. "The Longest Auto Race", is the book he wrote about his experience. On page 18, on the morning of the race (Feb. 12, 1908), he went to the Harry S. Houpt Agency (Thomas dealer)  and states, "in the garage I found a shining new gray Thomas Flyer".  Based on his book, the racer was a new 1907 Roadster (with some modifications), not one previously raced by Monty Roberts.

Edited by modela28 (see edit history)
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To me, that is the question. The quoted statement by Roberts above could be interpreted to mean the 1907 year cars were well known by Roberts and he had confidence in them or it could be interpreted to mean the actual car. I have not made this a study but from what I've read that has been posted here, Monty Roberts had been a race car driver for Thomas for several years prior and drove in several races for Thomas during the 1907 year. It is reported that Monty Roberts was the guy hired to drive the 1907 car in the NY to Paris race, Schuster was hired as mechanic. When Thomas entered a race in France, Thomas pulled Roberts from the NY to Paris race to drive in this other race.

 

It might be noted that in the 1908 race, Thomas used a 1907 car. I believe it is reported above that Schuster wanted to pull an unsold 1907 car from a warehouse for the race. That car could have easily been a race car Roberts had driven in a race in 1907. Vanderbiltcupraces.com has lots of material related to Roberts career with Thomas as a race car driver prior to the 1908 race. It would be interesting to see if the car driven in the NY to Paris race was a veteran race car when it was entered.

 

I previously researched the Locomobile race cars of 1905 and 06 and learned history is very much distorted when a car wins a race. It is reported that Schuster and Roberts both had confidence in the 1907 cars but not the 1908 cars, Roberts from a race car driver for Thomas perspective, and Schuster from a test drivers perspective.

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A great discussion about an event which changed automotive history, especially seeing so many old friends in the thread!  HVA produced an excellent  video which tells the story of the Flyer during the Race, and the amazing restoration by Bill Harrah.   It was produced when the Thomas was inducted into the National Historic Vehicle Register #12.  There was a bit of an argument when George authenticated the Flyer.  Harrah's staff wanted to restore it to new car condition, just like they had done with the other 700+ cars Bill had in his collection at that time.   Great Gramp said that would be a huge mistake, as the Flyer deserved to be restored to the condition it won the Race at the Eiffel Tower, not the condition it started the Race in Times Square.  Bill took George's advice and made an exception to his restoration policy for the Thomas.  I think anyone who has seen the Flyer as it looks today is thankful for the final decision....

 

As for the lack of American participation in the Race, even Henry Ford and Ransom Olds said such an undertaking was impossible.  No automobile had ever crossed the US in winter, much less driven around the globe.  It's especially fitting that George Schuster was inducted into the Automotive Hall of Fame, and now stands next to Ford and Olds who said it couldn't be done....

 

The National Automobile Museum does a superb job in exhibiting the Flyer.  There is also a brand new Heritage Building exhibit in George's hometown of Springville, NY.  It features a life sized recreation of the Schuster Dodge Bros. dealership, which he operated after his time with Thomas and Pierce Arrow.  If you're in the WNY area, it's well worth a visit!

 

Jeff Mahl

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Personally think the opinion of the riding mechanic would have more import than that of the chauffeur.

 

To some "they say it can't be done" is an excuse. To others a challenge.

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20 hours ago, padgett said:

"Thomas road the tracks " - rode ? I shudder to think what that did to their spines. Was it routed as a special train ? Elsewhere I saw that the "rebody" was a new '07 chassis which was felt to be more reliable, updated to appear as an '08.

The first car to traverese the Canadian Rockies was a 1905 Napier driven by Charles Thomas.  Passengers were American Charles Glidden, his wife Lucy and several conductors which were required along the way.  They rode the rails, were given a special train number and were actually scheduled to arrive at stops at specific times.

It is likey that was the case during the race as well.

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To consider Montague Roberts a chauffeur, if that was your intent, would be a huge mistake. Roberts had been driving Thomas cars in races for E.R. Thomas for several years. He was perhaps better acquainted with the Thomas car and its limitations than any other living person with the exception of George Schuster, who, as I understand it, was Thomas' test driver.

 

We are now over 100 years past this event and as in the case of the Locomobile race car old 16, the win seems to have squashed all curiosity concerning the car itself. Why did the E.R. Thomas Automobile Co enter a 1907 car in a 1908 race? If memory serves me correctly, the car was supposed to be stock of the model year. It would make sense, seeing that nobody believed such an event was possible, to use a proven car and Schuster and Roberts seem to have preferred the 1907 over the 1908 model.

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Reading the earlier posts, it just sounded like there were some changes made for '08 that the people involved were not sure of the reliability so it was decided to use an '07 chassis.

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Anyone who has been reading Peter Findlay's excellent topic on prewar cars in British Columbia will have noticed Buck Roger's name mentioned several times.  The Zust was one of his finds and he owned it for many years.  Buck seems to have had a knack for finding cars in unlikely places and the Zust was no exception.  As has been mentioned earlier here, I don't think the European crews had any real comprehension of what they would encounter as they went further and further west across North America.  If the Zust was penalized for using the railroad and unable to take a ship from Seattle to Alaska, they apparently made the decision to try to get to Alaska overland.  They made it to a little community in British Columbia called Short Portage which is an indigenous community known today as Seton Portage.  Even today, Seton Portage is not an easy place to get to.  It is likely that, after fighting their way along a road which had been largely abandoned when it was bypassed in 1870 by the construction of the Cariboo Road, (the TransCanada Highway today), that they realized the impossibility of what they were trying to do, left the car in a shed, and made their way back to Italy. 

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21 minutes ago, padgett said:

Reading the earlier posts, it just sounded like there were some changes made for '08 that the people involved were not sure of the reliability so it was decided to use an '07 chassis.

Yes, and the purpose of building cars is to sell them, yet Thomas had this chassis setting in a warehouse gathering dust. Now maybe I'm too far removed from the situation to have a good perspective but a very good reason why this chassis was not sold and Roberts and Schuster felt good about attempting an impossible race with it was because this chassis was well proven. In other words, they chose a car to race around the world they had already won other races with. It's just speculation on my part but it seems reasonable.

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1 hour ago, AHa said:

Yes, and the purpose of building cars is to sell them, yet Thomas had this chassis setting in a warehouse gathering dust. Now maybe I'm too far removed from the situation to have a good perspective but a very good reason why this chassis was not sold and Roberts and Schuster felt good about attempting an impossible race with it was because this chassis was well proven. In other words, they chose a car to race around the world they had already won other races with. It's just speculation on my part but it seems reasonable.

 

That is a possibility, and one that I had never considered. It has been a long time since I did most of my reading on the subject. I know from a good internet friend that there were a couple important races run in 1907 that included Thomas Flyer automobiles. The most popular racing format in this country in 1907 was 24 hour endurance runs. Usually on mile or more oval tracks going around and around trying to rack up the most miles. There were actually a couple different formats in how the races were run, regardless, the Thomas cars performed very well in those races!

 

Jeff Mahl, We have never met, but I have read and heard second hand of how wonderful your presentations are. I do hope to be able to see one myself someday. Those early decades in the history of the automobile are important as part and parcel of the major turning point in human history!  The 'round the world race was a big part of all of that. Your great grandfather was an amazing man!

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Jeff,

I second Wayne's sentiment. It doesn't look like Wayne or myself will have a chance to see this presentation any time soon and time marches on for all men, so, is there any chance some one has videotaped one of your presentations that might be available somewhere?

 

I am amazed at the character George Schuster exhibited in continuing in that race. It would have been much easier to quit at a thousand points along the route. The hardship they overcame is unthinkable today and I wonder how many men today would have the quality of spirit to finish.

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On 10/26/2020 at 7:04 AM, Graham Man said:

I am surprised to see the car on a two wheel trailer?  I assumed the early cars were built like tanks and weighed about the same?  I thought the Thomas would crush that trailer?

 

Now that looks like an adventure, leaving Buffalo NY.   Can you imagine even just riding along?

 

image.thumb.png.71491fd364c3dcf5c795851e03b14719.png

Notice the auxiliary fuel tank on the side of the Thomas?  That must be 30 gallons? no tank on the restored car.

 

This Car Matters; the Thomas Flyer

 

 

I think the subject of what cars of that era actually weigh is probably worth a thread on its own. I suspect that comparing models of similar engine size from later eras the relatively light weight of pre 1910 cars might surprise some - ?

 

Hopefully at least someone has run a big brass car over a weighbridge.

 

Safety features and electronic aids have made 21st century cars much heavier than mid/late 20th century stuff and I think the same difference would apply to late 1920s cars with four wheel brakes and more substantial bodies compared with brass era cars. 

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scan0002.thumb.jpg.4afc3b2148e6b0b8a0f38aeb5eea9da2.jpg

 Here is a picture of the 1908 Race winner 78 years later competing in the 1986 Great American Race which

 went from L.A. to NYC.   The story we got was the Ginni Cox Withers borrowed it from Harrah's for the 

 1986 GAR.  She was the part time driver and we understood that the navigator also drove it.   They won the

 award for Oldest Vehicle to Finish.  In Great Race terms, "to finish is to win".   in 1987 she was back with the

 Bonnie & Clyde death car.   Second picture, the 34 on the left.

 BonnieampCydeampMe_zpsaf56924c.JPG.0a9cae2c288ad4fa36972427dbd68d50.JPG

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Paul, the Flyer weighed more than 5,000 pounds equipped for the Race.  It was the most powerful of the entries, and capable of 60 mph on good roads.  Of note, there was less than 150 miles of paved roads in the US at that time.  There are additional photos, books and DVDs available on the website: TheGreatAutoRace.com  

 

I will be telling the story of Great Gramp's involvement in the 1906, 07 and 09 Glidden Tours at the 2021 Glidden in September.  George became friends with Ransom Olds, Percy Pierce and of course Charles Glidden along with other notables during those events.

 

It was an incredible time in the early days of the automobile.  Prior to the 1908 Race, the only reliable means of land transportation were the horse or locomotive.  After the Race, the "horseless carriage" became much more widely accepted around the world.  It took men of determination with a very strong "Anything is Possible" attitude to launch a new era in transportation...

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12 hours ago, dictator27 said:

 They made it to a little community in British Columbia called Short Portage which is an indigenous community known today as Seton Portage.  Even today, Seton Portage is not an easy place to get to.  It is likely that, after fighting their way along a road which had been largely abandoned when it was bypassed in 1870 by the construction of the Cariboo Road, (the TransCanada Highway today), that they realized the impossibility of what they were trying to do, left the car in a shed, and made their way back to Italy. 

Fascinating! The Zust was found in Seton Portage BC? Wow. Here in my back yard. I can't imagine how they got there. As you mentioned, it is not easy to get to today even.

Is there a link to a story maybe on the the discovery of the Zust? I'd love to read it. Thanks for sharing the story. I have been to Reno and seen the Thomas. Perhaps someday  I will see the Zust here in BC.

 

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1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Fascinating! The Zust was found in Seton Portage BC? Wow. Here in my back yard. I can't imagine how they got there. As you mentioned, it is not easy to get to today even.

Is there a link to a story maybe on the the discovery of the Zust? I'd love to read it. Thanks for sharing the story. I have been to Reno and seen the Thomas. Perhaps someday  I will see the Zust here in BC.

 

Here are a couple of Buck's pictures, taken when he found the Zust.   It is my understanding that it was actually in the Yukon at the time.  Also, wasn't the Zust one of the cars that finished the race?  There is a story out there about what happened to it after the race and how it ended up back in North America, and then in the Yukon.

 

Yes Keith, one day you should make it over to Vancouver Island to see it.

 

Peter

 

Zust1.thumb.jpg.f0f37c9d0e51a42df2d4ac4bd2e088f6.jpg

 

 

Zust2.thumb.jpg.bdc3eaed16ad48c76bc2b512e009fb34.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Fascinating! The Zust was found in Seton Portage BC? Wow. Here in my back yard. I can't imagine how they got there. As you mentioned, it is not easy to get to today even.

Is there a link to a story maybe on the the discovery of the Zust? I'd love to read it. Thanks for sharing the story. I have been to Reno and seen the Thomas. Perhaps someday  I will see the Zust here in BC.

 

 

Here is an article on the Zust story:

 

https://www.oldcarsweekly.com/features/1906-zust-revamped-great-race-100th-anniversary

 

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