dibarlaw Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I have recieved my October Bugle and the Roster. Excellent issue even though we only had a "Virtual" meet photo gallery. I did like seeing my shabby 37 in the gallery! Since leaving the BODs I have kept a low profile in regards to the club management decisions. Just trying to keep the Mason-Dixon chapter going amid COVID has been a trial. Since I am a chapter director I still do get many calls about BCA activity and some policy items. As a board member I had also pushed to have CORNERSTONE as our managers. Now to the concern... The Roster, as I have begun thumbing through has been fraught with many errors. I know of several individuals who passed away before the 2017 roster was issued. Yet they show up in the new roster. I have recieved calls from the BCA membership citing some other errors. The suspicious large increase of certain model cars owned by the membership. Some I would not be sure if that many would exist in the whole world let alone just in the BCA. I know that the 1937 Model 40C owned by J. Frank(PA.) since deceased in 2015 is the same car now owned by J. Hansen (IN.) I am sure there are many other items of double counting. When making the decision to do a new Roster as I recall I was among those who wanted to have a block of physical copies made for only members who requested one. Hoping to save a goodly amount on printing coats. I also know that the responsibility was Cornerstone's for the roster and its accuracy. Have there been any other observations about the roster? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Yes, only listed the first 3 cars of owners, for those of us with more than that, they are listed under the year and model, but..... I will continue to use the 'online' roster. I'm sure this was caused by the input from some to make the size of the font bigger for those with failing eyesight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 A printed Roster is outdated the moment the file for its basis is committed. Therefore, there is no alarm (and no foul) when some items are found to be incorrect. I still appreciate having the Roster in print, since I like to pack it in the car if I am on a trip. Nothing is more useless than an up-to-date online roster IF you have no online access where you break down. It would have been nice if the member listing included something to indicate that a member had more than three cars, but I question it's importance for use and I definitely appreciate the increased font size. I did like the breakdown of ownership for each year and model number within the same year. It may have helped if the model number designators also included the model name. But that was easy enough to find using the production number charts too. Thanks BCA, for producing the Roster, and thanks to all who helped make it happen! 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dship Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 And don't forget, the data is only as good as each member keeping the BCA office up to date on their related individual info. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 4 hours ago, BUICK RACER said: I will continue to use the 'online' roster. where might that be found 'berta, I've just spent a while on the BCA website looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, MrEarl said: where might that be found 'berta, I've just spent a while on the BCA website looking for it. Page 4 of the Roster or https://bca.cornerstonereg.com/ 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 55 minutes ago, BUICK RACER said: Page 4 of the Roster well after getting out the magnifying glass and following the tutorial on said page 4, I am impressed with what all can be found in the Member Management area, never even knew it was there. Thanks Roberta!! 2 hours ago, dship said: data is only as good as each member keeping the BCA office up to date on their related individual info and that can be easily done in the Member Management area under My Vehicles 🙂 I just deleted a 54 - 41D and a 54- 72R and added a 79- 4BR35 🙂 Cool...... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I also found it interesting in the new Roster to see the previous owner of a car I took possession of last week, listed under the year of car, as he passed away 2 yrs ago, but not listed as a member. Sometimes the wives keep the membership until it expires or if they are still interested renew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 in the 38-80C section Greg Field is listed as an owner...along with one other departed member and one who sold his car 5 years ago... what a mess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 And how about the listing for the 100 and 100+ year old vehicles? Listing them alphabetically by state is a real bone-headed idea. I don't think anyone cares what state they are in - the idea is supposed to be showing how many 1908, or, 1914, and so on, vehicles are listed in this organization chronologically by year of manufacture. I am still a dues paying member until October 31, 2021 and I can still gripe about how incompetently the dues money is spent in my opinion. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) On 10/21/2020 at 5:45 AM, dship said: And don't forget, the data is only as good as each member keeping the BCA office up to date on their related individual info. Many people tend to advise a club registry when they buy a new car, but far less advise a club registry when they sell a car. Just human nature. On 10/22/2020 at 7:38 AM, 38Buick 80C said: in the 38-80C section Greg Field is listed as an owner...along with one other departed member and one who sold his car 5 years ago... what a mess On 10/21/2020 at 10:26 AM, BUICK RACER said: I also found it interesting in the new Roster to see the previous owner of a car I took possession of last week, listed under the year of car, as he passed away 2 yrs ago, but not listed as a member. Sometimes the wives keep the membership until it expires or if they are still interested renew it. The data base should be clever enough to only list cars of paid up members. Not people who have not renewed or formally resigned from the club. Members can pay for 1 or 2 or 3 years, so even when a subscription is not renewed is possible for members who have passed on to still have a valid membership. And as above some family might renew the subscription for the magazine or being still interested. Past and present life members may be harder. Data base http://www.buickclub.org/ Click "member log in" area (top right) http://www.buickclub.org/ebugle-online/ Click "2 – Member Management Login" which is different to "1 – Member Access" Which leads to https://bca.cornerstonereg.com/ Hover over "Search" (to the right) then "vehicle search" or "member search" in drop down menu The "1 – Member Access" area has (most) pdf back issues of the Bugle and BOD meeting minutes Edited October 25, 2020 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) On 10/24/2020 at 1:07 PM, Terry Wiegand said: And how about the listing for the 100 and 100+ year old vehicles? Listing them alphabetically by state is a real bone-headed idea. I don't think anyone cares what state they are in - the idea is supposed to be showing how many 1908, or, 1914, and so on, vehicles are listed in this organization chronologically by year of manufacture. I am still a dues paying member until October 31, 2021 and I can still gripe about how incompetently the dues money is spent in my opinion. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Look at the roster starting on page 205. You will find cars listed by year / model and owner. And on page 161 is the listing of the Centennial cars. Different people use the roster for different uses. If you would read the table of contents, you will see all the information available. It is much more than member listed by state. Edited October 27, 2020 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history) 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 . I only have my 1939 66S listed under my state/name listing...... no Reatta..... As Technical Advisor for Reattas it should show my 1991..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Barney Eaton said: . I only have my 1939 66S listed under my state/name listing...... no Reatta..... As Technical Advisor for Reattas it should show my 1991..... From the on line data base you have 1 car listed (the best one! [unbiased opinion]) https://bca.cornerstonereg.com/Search/VehicleDetail/29977 You can edit and add other cars Have all you cars been shown in previous rosters? What shows on your membership renewal notice? Edited October 28, 2020 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul455 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Printed roster is a total waste of money when it is available on line. Makes you wonder what else our money is being wasted on. Sent an email to BCA and have never heard back from them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 As usual, opinions ALL OVER the place. Any printed item is outdated before press time. Any online item is outdated by the time the first reader sees same. Let's just enjoy our BUICKS! Ben 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, paul455 said: Printed roster is a total waste of money when it is available on line. Makes you wonder what else our money is being wasted on. Sent an email to BCA and have never heard back from them Paul, As a member of the Board of the BCA, I will tell you that there was a lot of discussion on printing the directory. After much consideration it was agreed that in the best interest of the members was to print a directory. A lot of the reason to print the director was because of two main items. First, there were a number of members that said that they wanted a directory in printed form. Their comments included that when they travel they carry a copy with them. Part of the reason as told to us by members for this position was many times there is not access to a computer/tablet/ and internet access to look up members. Especially when traveling. Computer access can be somewhat cumbersome, especially depending on hardware, software, and where you live for internet access. There are still many parts of the country that do not have high speed access. They are still dial up or satellite only. Secondly, we looked at the demographics of the club. As part of that review, we looked at the percentage of members that renewed on line and the percentage that renewed by snail mail. There was a large percentage that renewed by snail mail which implied that a large number of members might not have a desire to use a computer, have access to a computer or be computer literate. It was determined that because of these and other factors it was in the best interest of the members to have a printed version of the roster printed. As an acknowledgement of our member demographic, the size of the type font in the roster was made larger. This change has already elicited positive responses. I will say that for myself and I believe the majority of the board, it was the right decision and not a waste of money. The amount of money spent once every three years represents is a very nominal amount of money and not a waste of money. Edited October 29, 2020 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Thanks, Larry. Even though I can and do use a computer I still LIKE books. They don't crash nor run out of battery power. Ben 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 There seems to be a day and night difference between people on this computer/paper subject. I can read my morning paper without getting milk on my keyboard. I worked for a computer company for 32 years, they treated me very well, that does not mean I must change everything I do to electronic. One of the last things I did when I was on the BCA Board, was make a motion that we try electronic Bugles...for foreign members. They were at a disadvantage when it came to buying cars and part.... by the time their hard copy arrived, the items were sold. That was 2010, now all members have the option of the electronic Bugle. I am not opposed to electronic media........I just know what I want. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dship Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 My whole career was surrounded with computers. I'm retired and although just about everything in my life is electronic I still read books via paperback. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Century Eight Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 I like the choice of having paper and electronic because i do use both and they both have their place. I hate to criticize the organization because there is so much volunteer effort put into what we see. That being said, when i see how many dead people are still listed as owners, and how many model years of interest to me have doubled in size when i know they haven’t, and the total number of pages have nearly doubled since 2017, there was money to be saved, had there been better proof reading. You could say anything is obsolete before it gets printed but I hope there is a next one and hope there is a learning curve for Cornerstone. I would rather see additional time dedicated to accuracy than a rush to put it out just because we can 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) The data base is only as good as the information it receives. Data base/roster should match paid up members Deceased persons can still be listed if they have 1yr-2yr-3yr-life membership. Need someone to formally advise the club. That would not be high on the list of tasks for an estate administrator. Edited November 8, 2020 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Century Eight Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 I can name you three people that have been dead or non members for twenty years. That’s just me. I have four Buicks from 1940 to 1950. All have tripled in number of cars listed. The old ones are assumed to be fading away as their owners do. Of the cars I am familiar with that does not seem to be the case. The 2017 roster was 232 pages as opposed to 396 pages. You can’t attribute that to just the size of the font. The size of the club is said to be smaller. Why cant the two data bases be compared side by side for glaring errors before it goes to print. You can’t catch them all, but somethings really just jump out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) On 10/21/2020 at 4:38 PM, 38Buick 80C said: in the 38-80C section Greg Field is listed as an owner...along with one other departed member and one who sold his car 5 years ago... what a mess I was not going to comment on this topic, but I now feel that I should after a recent discovery. I realize that there is a lot of old data that has not had much work done on cleaning it up for many years. I think that the current management really has their work cut out for them in trying to clean up the old data. I am thinking about buying a car that I recently saw advertised. It is in SC but I know it recently came out of Pennsylvania. In hoping to see if I could track down the previous owner, if they happen to be BCA members, I looked for PA members showing that particular body style in the roster. I found 6 cars listed in PA in the Member Cars by Year/Model section of the new directory. When I then went to the Members listed by state, to get more information on those 6 members, I discovered that 3 of the 6 were not listed as members. It appears that somehow the step of cross referencing the old data of Member Cars to current membership was not done. This is a fairly serious misstep by somebody in the production process. This obviously caused the size of the roster to be significantly larger and more costly than it should have been. It makes no sense to have pages listing cars that are or were owned by people who are no longer members of the club. Edited November 8, 2020 by MCHinson (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 19 hours ago, MCHinson said: I was not going to comment on this topic, but I now feel that I should after a recent discovery. I realize that there is a lot of old data that has not had much work done on cleaning it up for many years. I think that the current management really has their work cut out for them in trying to clean up the old data. I am thinking about buying a car that I recently saw advertised. It is in SC but I know it recently came out of Pennsylvania. In hoping to see if I could track down the previous owner, if they happen to be BCA members, I looked for PA members showing that particular body style in the roster. I found 6 cars listed in PA in the Member Cars by Year/Model section of the new directory. When I then went to the Members listed by state, to get more information on those 6 members, I discovered that 3 of the 6 were not listed as members. It appears that somehow the step of cross referencing the old data of Member Cars to current membership was not done. This is a fairly serious misstep by somebody in the production process. This obviously caused the size of the roster to be significantly larger and more costly than it should have been. It makes no sense to have pages listing cars that are or were owned by people who are no longer members of the club. How does that information discrepancy compare to the online versions. I'll bet that a smart feller like you that has already figured out what is wrong could fix it in a jiffy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Not having access to the database or knowing what software was used to produce the roster, I don't really know exactly what steps should have been done to correctly compile the printed roster member cars list, but I can come up with a rough estimate of how many excess pages were printed unnecessarily. There were a total of 42 of that body style listed in the roster. The online search revealed only 25 of that body style actually owned by current members, which is 59% of the number of cars listed in the printed roster. Assuming the same error rate on all cars, which may or may not be accurate, printing only 59% of the 191 pages of listed cars would have saved the club from printing and mailing 78 pages of the printed roster (which is about 20% of the total printed pages of the roster). It is a real shame that apparently a significant amount of funds were spent unecessarily. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I have noticed the same sorts of issues, and it came to light when looking at owners of 1957 76C's. I know for a fact that at least 2 of those listed no longer own one, and those are just ones I have knowledge of. I think the only way to make this accurate long-term is to have owners provide VIN numbers, so that duplicates can be removed. Starting fresh, requiring all owners in club to update this information before the next roster comes out (or not have their car listed) I think is the only solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, lancemb said: I have noticed the same sorts of issues, and it came to light when looking at owners of 1957 76C's. I know for a fact that at least 2 of those listed no longer own one, and those are just ones I have knowledge of. I think the only way to make this accurate long-term is to have owners provide VIN numbers, so that duplicates can be removed. Starting fresh, requiring all owners in club to update this information before the next roster comes out (or not have their car listed) I think is the only solution. Do you see the same discrepancies in the digital online version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 39 minutes ago, old-tank said: Do you see the same discrepancies in the digital online version? I have not checked it. However, if they don't exist there, they will eventually. The only way to prevent duplication after a car is sold to a new owner is to use a unique identifier to the car, which is the VIN. Otherwise, duplication is practically inevitable unless the new owner never becomes a BCA member; thankfully they often do. Also, even if someone is no longer a club member it would be interesting to know if a particular make or model existed (and maybe still does) by a former member which is not accounted for by current members. It would act as a sort of registry by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 1 hour ago, lancemb said: I have not checked it. However, if they don't exist there, they will eventually. The only way to prevent duplication after a car is sold to a new owner is to use a unique identifier to the car, which is the VIN. Otherwise, duplication is practically inevitable unless the new owner never becomes a BCA member; thankfully they often do. Also, even if someone is no longer a club member it would be interesting to know if a particular make or model existed (and maybe still does) by a former member which is not accounted for by current members. It would act as a sort of registry by default. Lance, there's 19 1957 76Cs on the online roster. I found a few days ago lookin up a newer car, that some people did not list their cars by model # but by name, like special instead of 40, and Cascada instead of 4WT67, of course the Roster doesn't help as it doesn't list the model #s after 2003, so there's some work to be done to improve this roster thing if it is to continue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) The information is only as good as the information people supply. When people buy a car some will register. When people sell a car many have less tenancy to remove the car from a register. Not all (old) car have VIN's. VIN's started in 1950's and were not standardised until 1981. What each country/state puts in the rego record will vary. Official government records can be incorrect. {BCA has members out of USA!}. Frame/chassis number may work for some. Engines can get replaced. For exact model year vs year of manufacture and model numbers vs common name harder to fix. Someone, with knowledge & authority, may be able to fix some entries. Contacting the owner would be needed. For many a request to check/update car details on the annual renewal would have little effect. Most would do nothing. Edited February 9, 2021 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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