1952 Chrysler Town and Country acceleration problem at higher speeds

[nickg112]

I have a 1952 Chrysler Town and Country Station Wagon, 265 CID six cylinder engine with the Fluid-Matic Drive Transmission that I recently purchased. It was in storage for over fifty years. The car sat for years. It is all original. I changed all fluids, dropped oil pan and cleaned, cleaned fuel system including dropping and cleaning the gas tank, rebuilt carburetor, did brakes and went through electrical. Also did complete tune up. The engine starts right up and runs smooth and is very quiet. No hesitation during acceleration while car is in neutral. It does not miss or backfire.

My issue is when I drive the car.

I start off in Drive (3rd gear). I accelerate and the car runs smooth and has plenty of pick up. I then take my foot off the accelerator for a moment at about 20 MPH and the car goes into 4th. So far so good. Everything is smooth including the changing of gears from 3rd to 4th. Once the car reaches 30 MPH (approximate) the car begins to miss and has no acceleration. Although I am not 100% certain of the cause, the car acts as though it is starving for fuel. I think the kick down switch is working properly when I accelerate at lower speeds before I hit 30 MPH while in 4th gear.

I have also tried shifting gears from 3rd to 4th at various speeds with same results. Although not necessary, I have also started from Low (1st and 2nd gear) and then shifted to Drive. The car will always begin missing and loose acceleration at 30 MPH.

I would like to pin point my problem before I start tearing everything apart. Is this an Electrical or fuel problem. If either, where do I begin? I did not rebuild or replace the fuel pump. 

Thank you for any help

Nick

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by nickg112 (see edit history)

[c49er]

Maybe look at...

***Oilite filter in the tank

***Rubber hose at fuel pump...cracked old

***Fuel pump

***Small insulated wire in distributor grounding out as breaker plate advances

 

[nickg112]

10 hours ago, c49er said:

Maybe look at...

***Oilite filter in the tank

***Rubber hose at fuel pump...cracked old

***Fuel pump

***Small insulated wire in distributor grounding out as breaker plate advances

 

Those are all good ideas. I actually was planning on buying a new fuel pump. That is an easy fix. I am hoping that it is not the carb since I did rebuild it.  I am not sure where the oillite filter is in the tank. Funny that I did not see it when I cleaned the tank out. You are not talking about the filter at the end of the fuel sending unit, are you? Thank you

[c49er]

The metal Oilite filter is attached to the end of the fuel tank pickup tube.

A round flat disc looking thing.

No way to remove it or clean it other than making sure fuel easily flows thru it.

When the tanks are cut open most remove that factory filter.

[hchris]

Difficult to pick missing under load, could be fuel or ignition. 

 

Given that you've been through the fuel system, it might be worthwhile looking at points/condenser/coil/plugs and wires. Pulling the plugs after a run when it's playing up might reveal something, are the plugs sooty? or pale?  How about the points, are they black/burnt, correct gap ?

[c49er]

And did you replace the flex hose at the fuel pump?

They crack and cause a vacuum leak...decrease of fuel supply to pump.

[nickg112]

21 hours ago, c49er said:

And did you replace the flex hose at the fuel pump?

They crack and cause a vacuum leak...decrease of fuel supply to pump.

It looks good but I am going to replace anyway

[nickg112]

9 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

If you hold the car in a lower gear does the miss occur at a lower speed? Is it vehicle speed or rpm related. I don't know enough about the Chrysler various fluid drives to be dangerous but might that have a relationship to the problem? 

I believe RPM has nothing to do with the issue. That I am sure of. Only get the miss, under load and in 4th gear

Edited October 12, 2020 by nickg112 (see edit history)

[nickg112]

9 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

If you hold the car in a lower gear does the miss occur at a lower speed? Is it vehicle speed or rpm related. I don't know enough about the Chrysler various fluid drives to be dangerous but might that have a relationship to the problem? 

Only get the miss in 4th gear. Never get the miss at lower speeds or in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear.

[nickg112]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:34 PM, plymouthcranbrook said:

That is odd as my experience is that as hchris and c49er said this certainly sounds fuel or ignition related.  Is there a mechanical or electricle condition with the fluid drive that might cause it?  Although a miss may be at high car speed it also usually occurs in a lower gear at a similar rpm.  Maybe a bad vacuum hose is leaking or alternatively collapsing?  Wish I knew more about the fluid drives.    

I am not sure. Everyone has a lot of good ideas. I will keep everyone posted as I get this fixed.

[keithb7]

I have a 1953 with a 265 and fluid drive M6 tranny. Your issue is certainly interesting. I am inclined to think electrical.

 

Some ideas:

What about distributor related issues? Your spark plug timing auto adjusts as the engine speeds up.  This is done two ways I believe. Centrifugal weights, and vacuum advance. Vacuum taken from the intake manifold. If I can get this straight: when your engine is turned off, the spark timing point plate is retarded by a spring. This allows for a quick, back-fire free engine start up. Then at idle there is a lot of vacuum created in the intake manifold. This vacuum overcomes the points backing plate retarder, spring tension. The vacuum twists the points backing plate, moving the timing ahead. Intake manifold vacuum will decrease as you open the throttle and drive. At this point the engine is now spinning  faster. The Distributor shaft turning faster too. That's the point when centrifugal weights take over and advance the spark timing yet further.  Engine speed and vacuum readings will vary depending on several factors. Including the throttle position and torque load on the engine.

 

I also am weary about maybe a bad condenser. They do weird things.  When they are failing, as dwell time is so incredibly short, a bad condenser may prevent a coil from building up an adequate charge. Causing backfiring possibly.

 

I am doubtful the tranny wiring is related, however it is worth checking. Inspect all wires to and from the tranny at both ends. Check for possible grounds that should not be there. The kick-out switch grounds the coil briefly when you are in 4th gear, under 30 mph. Only when he throttle mashed to the floor. The engine cuts out temporarily, very briefly, as the the coil is grounded. Cutting engine power, removing any load off the tranny input pinion. This allows for smooth sliding clutch gear downshift back to 3rd. Be sure to check all wiring related to this system. The 2 wires to the carb are also related to this system. When the throttle is mashed to the floor, the systems knows that as the carb linkage is open fully, activating a switch on the carb.

 

There are spinning governor points on the side of the tranny. They activate as ground speed increases. However I would be very surprised to learn how that system could somehow effect your engine power cutting out. This spinning set of points usually causes transmission shift problems.

 

Fuel related issues? Maybe. I am doubtful based on your description of the symptoms. What is your fuel line pressure after the pump? A vacuum/fuel pressure dial gauge is a very useful too to have. Ideal for this type of troubleshooting.

 

Be sure to update us and let us know what you find. Good luck.

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Fossil]

Another area to investigate is the exhaust system. If there is a restriction such as a plugged muffler the problem may not become apparent until the engine is under more of a load.  

Does the problem occur right after the shift or is it at 30 mph regardless of what the transmission is doing? 

[nickg112]

Well it took me awhile but my problem is fixed. I appreciate all the information. My main problem was the fuel tank. There was a restriction somewhere leading to the fuel outlet. Enough fuel made it to the carburetor at lower speeds only.  Although I had previously cleaned the fuel tank out, there was still a restriction. This time I dropped the tank, drained the fuel. I then put in 5 gallons of E85 fuel and sloshed it around for several days. I drained the E85 and I then power washed the inside of the tank. Drained all the water. Some pretty cruddy stuff came out. I then added 5 gallons of white vinegar and sloshed that around for several days. I power washed the inside again and more rust and crud came out. I flushed the tank with pure water and then added a box of baking soda. Sloshed that around and drained and cleaned again. I dried out the tank, installed it in the car, added fuel and took the car for a ride. It shifted into all gears and I got it to 60 MPH with plenty more pedal left. I decided to replace the fuel pump while I was at it. The car runs perfectly, accelerates well and shifts great.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to help trouble shoot my problem.

I am so pleased with my results.

I have attached a few photos of this beauty. That is the original paint. The car is unrestored.

[Fossil]

Congratulations on finding the problem. Hope you have many trouble free miles ahead of you.

I really like those station wagons and yours is a peach. 

[Dosmo]

Around 1990, a relative of mine bought one in this same color.  It was advertised as a Chrysler Imperial station wagon.  He and I were relative newcomers to old cars, and he was desperate to find one of the long-wheelbase 1951 New Yorker T&C wagons.  Had we researched it a little more, we would have realized something didn't quite add up.

 

It turned out to be a 1951 Windsor body attached to a 1951 Imperial chassis with the Imp front sheet metal still in place.  Paint was the same color, but the chrome trim on the front doors didn't extend onto the front fenders.  Looking at the photos, we just assumed that the trim was missing.  Shortly after the purchase, we were extremely disappointed to find out that the VIN on the body identified the car as a Windsor, instead of a New Yorker.  I was really embarrassed about the whole thing, because I had found the car for sale, and I talked him into buying it.  It was a huge lesson for both of us.  I don't recall the purchase price for this wagon, but, while not exorbitant, it wasn't exactly cheap. 

 

He was so disgusted that he sold the car at a loss just so he wouldn't have to be reminded about the whole thing.  As I look back on this, I have to wonder about the motivation for mounting the wagon body on the Imperial chassis - the seller had owned the car for a few years, and it had probably been this way for a while before he bought it.  it doesn't seem as though the body swap would have been worth doing, from a monetary point of view.  At that time, most non-woodie station wagons weren't all that collectable, and that was particularly true for the early '50s Chrysler.

 

Back to the OP's car - I love it - very nice.  You will have lots of fun with that wagon.

[c49er]

I have only seen two 1951 NewYorker wagons.

One in Seattle Back in the 70's and another maroon one in Spokane.

As I recall 250 were produced.

A rare car for sure.

Ended up with a 50 Royal wagon.