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Is the antique automobile hobby ready for the coming switchover to electric cars, etc.


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Again this proves that California is the land of fruits, nuts & flakes. They better start working on their forest management that will prevent a lot more smog. If they really want to be serious and not a bunch of hypocrites than they need to switch the state over to only wind, solar & electric eel energy to charge their electric cars 

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Believe this only applies to new vehicle sales?

 

CA better hurry up and straighten out its electrical supply issues if the intent is 100% electric vehicles. With rolling blackouts becoming the norm, what good is an EV if you can't charge it?

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On the subject of self driving cars.................while I have a strong opinion on them, I was also given an interesting thing to think about by someone who is a leading attorney in the nation. His response was......"until there is tort reform in the United States", you won't see it on the open roads in any significant numbers. Who do you sue when there is a dead family from a computer failure........the driver? The insurance company? The automobile manufacturer? The computer company? The cell company feeding info into the machine? Mapquest? The engineer who wrote the code? Or the cat in the in the house three thousand miles away? Unless the government adopts some revision, tort issues will kill self driving vehicles. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, alsancle said:

Dave,   could you explain to a simpleton like me how NASA comes up with those numbers?    Do they have a bunch of calibrated thermometers in untouched locations around the world measuring temps since 1880?     Without a time machine, I'm not sure how they do that.

So Fahrenheit invented the glass tube thermometer with alcohol fill in 1709.  He made the final improvement to what is considered the modern thermometer, charging it with mercury in 1714.  That thermometer is still in use today due to it's accuracy.  If you want the whole history of the thermometer it dates back to Hero's era.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermometer

 

After that all you need is weather records from around the world which have been kept pretty accurately since 1880.

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/21/why-does-the-temperature-record-shown-on-your-vital-signs-page-begin-at-1880/

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Driverless cars are all over the roads now. Doubt it? Look at cars being operated by people fooling with phones or other electronic distractions. I got run into the median at 65mph by one Sunday afternoon.

 

Someone pointed out infrastructure in an earlier post. Overnight charging would be good for power companies as baseload demand is less then, which in past has translated to price breaks for people using hot water, dryers etc in off-peak hours. That would probably disappear. Solar power? Doesn't exist at night without some type of electrical storage capacity, adding more expense.

 

Electricians might see a boom business too as people would have to rewire their homes to accommodate charging apparatus.

 

I always wonder if the utopians pushing such things ever consider the auxiliary costs of converting their dreams into reality.

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So UPS sales are really good ? And here I recall Californians wondering why I have home generators because their power was so stable.

 

Guess E100 will become popular.

 

ps anyone who expects clean air in the "Valley of Smoke"...

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I just read several articles on line stating autonomous driving is being tested right now in multiple major cities and routes in between...Denver. Phoenix, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Orlando, and many more.  One in particular (techcrunch.com) allows you to track when and where test vehicles are operating on highways (with a live person monitor in the vehicle). One article states MI is leading all other states in the technology. Another by the NHTSA says the technology is being developed and tested. Also says Gov't is investing in it as well. They aren't spending all this $ on research, development, & testing if they don't have a warm fuzzy feeling that it will not be implemented. Just before I retired from NASA, Kennedy Space Center was partnering with a company in Orlando for testing on KSC roads.

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9 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Someone pointed out infrastructure in an earlier post. Overnight charging would be good for power companies as baseload demand is less then, which in past has translated to price breaks for people using hot water, dryers etc in off-peak hours.

Guilty as charged but overnight charging is gonna be a problem for me, cottage is 400+ miles from home.  With current battery range around 300 miles would I have to stop overnight someplace to charge my car off peak hours?  Think I'll stick with gasoline or diesel.

 

On the driverless cars already being on the road- AMEN to that.  If you don't believe it just be on the I-69 freeway around Port Huron, MI where the Canadian trash trucks are making "driverless" runs every day bringing trash in from Canada to go to Michigan land fills. 

 

I view driverless cars as a restriction on my freedom I gained when I turned 16 and passed my driver's test and was granted an operator's license.  If you want driverless take the subway...

Edited by Str8-8-Dave (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

So Fahrenheit invented the glass tube thermometer with alcohol fill in 1709.  He made the final improvement to what is considered the modern thermometer, charging it with mercury in 1714.  That thermometer is still in use today due to it's accuracy.  If you want the whole history of the thermometer it dates back to Hero's era.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermometer

 

After that all you need is weather records from around the world which have been kept pretty accurately since 1880.

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/21/why-does-the-temperature-record-shown-on-your-vital-signs-page-begin-at-1880/

 

Dave,  I think people fall in to a couple of different buckets.    Those that take what you are saying at face value, i.e.  "thermometers have been around for 100s of years, of course we have lots of useful accurate date".  And the other bucket which says you have nothing but some rough approximate data.

 

You need hundreds if not thousands of the same measuring devices in the same places under the same conditions measured at the same time of day to have real data.

 

The problem is that many people have no idea what I'm talking about and if you try to have a thoughtful discussion you are shouted down as a "denier".

 

 

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So soon they forget: "the Little Ice Age is a period between about 1300 and 1870" and we have been emerging for 150 years. Just 1 degree C difference in the average temperature is A Lot planetwide.

 

ps its called "logistics".

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Does anyone bother to read past the headlines before posting? This is a ban on the sale of NEW IC cars. There's nothing about existing vehicles. I say great, more oil for the rest of us.

 

And frankly, there hasn't been a new car built in the last few decades that remotely interests me anyway. I don't want the electronic nanny crap, I don't need a rolling hotspot that's connected to the interwebs (insert Tesla network outage story here), and I want a manual trans.

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51 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

...........and the Hell's Angles are switching to all electric motorcycles. 

 

Have you seen the age and general health of those guys? They'll all be dead before this goes into effect.

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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We're doing our part.  We restored a 1916 Rauch and Lang Electric and showed it at Hershey and are now restoring a 1916 Milburn electric which is owned by a relatively "young" member.  Seriously. over the last 2 years we have seen more younger folks looking for restoration work and they are just as rabid about their cars as us old folks. At least from our vantage point the old car hobby is very much alive and well. I spoke with 2 other restoration shops yesterday and both, like us, are booked solid with work for at least 2 years into the future.

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OK, so my post on temperature change is challenged, that's fine.

 

Let's look at it another way.  Do you think the acreage burning this year is the MOST that's ever happened?  Not even close. 

 

Prior to the mid-1950s, acreage burned by forest and wild fires was 10 million acres plus.  Since then it's been in the single digit (millions) most years, but many years greater than this year.  And yes, I see the note about data and 1983.

 

 

I don't see how "climate change" can be blamed for what's been happening for years.  We are more AWARE of it now, with media and pictures and such, but it's not new.

 

Oh, and the politicians changed to the "climate change" moniker, as global warming is too confining, climate change covers all the bases.

 

https://www.nifc.gov/fireInfo/fireInfo_stats_totalFires.html    

 

For those who don't want to follow the link:

 

Total Wildland Fires and Acres (1926-2019)
The National Interagency Coordination Center at NIFC compiles annual wildland fire statistics for federal and state agencies.This information is provided through Situation Reports, which have been in use for several decades. Prior to 1983, sources of these figures are not known, or cannot be confirmed, and were not derived from the current situation reporting process. As a result the figures prior to 1983 should not be compared to later data.

Source: National Interagency Coordination Center
Year Fires Acres
2019 50,477 4,664,364
2018 58,083 8,767,492
2017 71,499 10,026,086
2016 67,743 5,509,995
2015 68,151 10,125,149
2014 63,312 3,595,613
2013 47,579 4,319,546
2012 67,774 9,326,238
2011 74,126 8,711,367
2010 71,971 3,422,724
2009 78,792 5,921,786
2008 78,979 5,292,468
2007 85,705 9,328,045
2006 96,385 9,873,745
2005 66,753 8,689,389
2004 65,461 *8,097,880
2003 63,629 3,960,842
2002 73,457 7,184,712
2001 84,079 3,570,911
2000 92,250 7,393,493
1999 92,487 5,626,093
1998 81,043 1,329,704
1997 66,196 2,856,959
1996 96,363 6,065,998
1995 82,234 1,840,546
1994 79,107 4,073,579
1993 58,810 1,797,574
1992 87,394 2,069,929
1991 75,754 2,953,578
1990 66,481 4,621,621
1989 48,949 1,827,310
1988 72,750 5,009,290
1987 71,300 2,447,296
1986 85,907 2,719,162
1985 82,591 2,896,147
1984 20,493 1,148,409
1983 18,229 1,323,666
1982 174,755 2,382,036
1981 249,370 4,814,206
1980 234,892 5,260,825
1979 163,196 2,986,826
1978 218,842 3,910,913
1977 173,998 3,152,644
1976 241,699 5,109,926
1975 134,872 1,791,327
1974 145,868 2,879,095
1973 117,957 1,915,273
1972 124,554 2,641,166
1971 108,398 4,278,472
1970 121,736 3,278,565
1969 113,351 6,689,081
1968 125,371 4,231,996
1967 125,025 4,658,586
1966 122,500 4,574,389
1965 113,684 2,652,112
1964 116,358 4,197,309
1963 164,183 7,120,768
1962 115,345 4,078,894
1961 98,517 3,036,219
1960 103,387 4,478,188
1959 104,662 4,156,000
1958 97,910 3,280,000
1957 83,392 3,410,000
1956 143,485 6,606,000
1955 145,180 8,069,000
1954 176,891 8,833,000
1953 154,160 9,976,000
1952 188,277 14,187,000
1951 164,090 10,781,000
1950 208,402 15,519,000
1949 193,774 15,397,000
1948 174,189 16,557,000
1947 200,799 23,226,000
1946 172,278 20,691,000
1945 124,728 17,681,000
1944 131,229 16,549,000
1943 210,326 32,333,000
1942 208,218 31,854,000
1941 199,702 26,405,000
1940 195,427 25,848,000
1939 212,671 30,449,000
1938 232,229 33,815,000
1937 185,209 21,981,000
1936 226,285 43,207,000
1935 140,297 30,335,000
1934 162,663 41,821,000
1933 140,722 43,890,000
1932 166,399 42,063,000
1931 187,214 51,607,000
1930 190,980 52,266,000
1929 134,895 46,230,000
1928 175,934 43,542,000
1927 158,438 38,531,000
1926 91,793 24,316,000

* 2004 fires and acres do not include state lands for North Carolina

**Protected Federal lands in Alaska are included from 1959; All State, private and Federal lands in Alaska and Hawaii data are from 1960.

***Beginning in 1966, when Arizona entered the Cooperative Forest Fire Control Program, statistics became available for all 50 States.

Edited by trimacar (see edit history)
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I will accept the theory of global warning when the temp of ground water rises. Ground water is always at the average yearly temp in the area where it exists.  So far, the temp of my well water has not risen.

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2 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

We're doing our part.  We restored a 1916 Rauch and Lang Electric and showed it at Hershey and are now restoring a 1916 Milburn electric which is owned by a relatively "young" member.  Seriously. over the last 2 years we have seen more younger folks looking for restoration work and they are just as rabid about their cars as us old folks. At least from our vantage point the old car hobby is very much alive and well. I spoke with 2 other restoration shops yesterday and both, like us, are booked solid with work for at least 2 years into the future.

I was at White Post Restorations the other day, they are loaded up with work and looking for restoration specialists.  They are saying it's difficult to find help.

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Friend posed an interesting question yesterday when we rode past a house we knew was built 11 years ago and was having solar panels installed on its original shingle roof.

 

"What happens when you have to replace the roof?"

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9 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Dave,  I think people fall in to a couple of different buckets.    Those that take what you are saying at face value, i.e.  "thermometers have been around for 100s of years, of course we have lots of useful accurate date".  And the other bucket which says you have nothing but some rough approximate data.

 

You need hundreds if not thousands of the same measuring devices in the same places under the same conditions measured at the same time of day to have real data.

 

The problem is that many people have no idea what I'm talking about and if you try to have a thoughtful discussion you are shouted down as a "denier".

 

 

A- I did post an article that talks about how records were kept and where NASA gets their info.

 

B- regarding your remark about being shouted down- as a "Tree hugger"  I feel your pain.  But I don't think any less of someone whose opinion differs from mine.

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We would hire 2 or 3 more employees immediately if we could find them.  We hired another body and paint guy from a dealership. He lasted a month and quit because he did not realize body work on antiques required so much sanding.  

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Just now, Restorer32 said:

We would hire 2 or 3 more employees immediately if we could find them.  We hired another body and paint guy from a dealership. He lasted a month and quit because he did not realize body work on antiques required so much sanding.  

I was told at White Post that they had one great candidate, he wanted a ton of money and they couldn't afford him.  They also said they've apprenticed people from restoration education places, and been disappointed in the lack of knowledge.  

 

I have some sympathy for the sanding comment.  I can sit in front of a sewing machine for hours, no problem, give me a block with sandpaper on it and I'm bored in the first two swipes.

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Well, with the car culture that exists in California, one could ban new ICE vehicles in 2035, it'd be 2100 before the last one runs there. 

 

I've worked in California and dealt with the system, the state has bent over backwards trying to be green tree hugging feel good, and it's driving business out daily.  It's not friendly to business when really stupid rules are made and enforced.  I've cited examples on this forum before so won't go into it again.

 

It's fine to be eco-friendly, but there has to be some common sense behind it, and in California there's not.

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1 minute ago, trimacar said:

and it's driving business out daily.  It's not friendly to business when really stupid rules are made and enforced.  

 

It's fine to be eco-friendly, but there has to be some common sense behind it, and in California there's not.

This.

 

Newsom has become a local joke for his bungling management of the entire coronavirus closures. He has driven more people and businesses out of business and out of this state than any governor before him. 

Petition for his recall already has over a million signatures so his "executive orders" don't really worry anyone here in California. 

IMG_40291.jpg.e6f973c71441ba9e7ece838232608394.jpg

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I saw this on the news today.

 

Other U.S. political news from California has the oil market's attention this week. California Governor Gavin Newsom signed an executive order mandating that would prohibit the sale of internal combustion engine cars in his state by 2035. California is the largest state in the U.S. with about 40 million people, but this is not as big of a deal as it seems since Newsom probably lacks the authority to do this, and it can be overturned easily by a future governor between now and 2035.
Moreover, it is an impractical order because California’s electrical grid lacks the capacity to handle this. Though this order may be copied by other states, oil traders should not read too much into these state efforts unless or until the car manufacturers start responding to them with altered strategy.
 

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2 hours ago, bdc said:

Again this proves that California is the land of fruits, nuts & flakes. They better start working on their forest management that will prevent a lot more smog. If they really want to be serious and not a bunch of hypocrites than they need to switch the state over to only wind, solar & electric eel energy to charge their electric cars 

Those virtue signaling morons have already switched over to mostly wind and solar, which is why they have rolling blackouts when it goes over 90 degrees.  They forgot that sometimes the wind doesn't blow and that the sun goes down at night.  If you blanketed the entire state of California with solar panels, it would not produce enough juice to run all those electric cars they want to have.    Perhaps if they just added the electric eels....

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If there is one advancement I can embrace in the technology going into self driving cars it’s the recognition of lane drift and auto braking when an object that is in your lane or stopped in your lane is detected.  Automakers accelerated the incorporation of this technology into their products when new upstart companies, mostly electrics, highlighted its capabilities.  My wife’s Subaru Forester has the eyesight feature that monitors for such things and helps the driver from having accidents as you have probably seen on TV.  One of the claims it notes in the sales literature is that it won’t let you drive into a brick wall during one of those gas vs brake episodes often seen in the news.

 

For me this technology advancement is personal, as many of you know from some of my previous posts.  As a one legged paraplegic survivor of a SUV crossing into my lane of travel as I operated my motorcycle, I would not be in this predicament if the vehicle that took me out had that eyesight feature.  Safer roads and travel can be an outcome of self driving technology even if we never get to level 5 which is true self driving capability.

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26 minutes ago, Mark Gregory said:

California is the largest state in the U.S. with about 40 million people, but this is not as big of a deal as it seems since Newsom probably lacks the authority to do this, and it can be overturned easily by a future governor between now and 2035.
 

Very true Mark.

California used to have some formidable teeth when it came to bending manufacturers to its enviro-crazed will. But that was many years ago.

Trouble is, they still wield this authority like it's the Reagan days (governor, not Pres.) but no one's listening any more. 

A good example of this is in firearms sales. California changes the rules every year and sometimes a couple of times in the same year making it more stringent for gun manufacturers to meet California's almost impossible "drop test" guidelines so the manufacturers simply stop trying to comply. They let California add their product to the "banned firearms" list and just concentrate on the the other 49 states. No longer a great loss for the manufacturer. 

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3 hours ago, bdc said:

Again this proves that California is the land of fruits, nuts & flakes. They better start working on their forest management that will prevent a lot more smog. If they really want to be serious and not a bunch of hypocrites than they need to switch the state over to only wind, solar & electric eel energy to charge their electric cars 

 

FYI.....

 

"Of the approximately 33 million acres of forest in California, federal agencies (including the USDA Forest Service and USDI Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service) own and manage 19 million acres (57%). State and local agencies including CalFire, local open space, park and water districts and land trusts own another 3%. 40% of California's forestland is owned by families, Native American tribes, or companies. Industrial timber companies own 5 million acres (14%). 9 million acres are owned by individuals  with nearly 90% of these owners having less than 50 acres of forest land."

 

It would appear that most of the forest in California is owned by the Federal Government at 57%, followed by Individuals at 40% and the State of California at 3%. Looks like California is not the only one that has a LOT of forest management work to do.

 

Forest Research and Outreach - California Forests

 

Like Matt has posted, Executive Orders are not Laws that are forever or are difficult to change. The next person in the particular office can write a New Executive Order that overrides/abolishes the current EO that is in force.  We have seen that time and time again in recent years.

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3 hours ago, bdc said:

Again this proves that California is the land of fruits, nuts & flakes. They better start working on their forest management that will prevent a lot more smog. If they really want to be serious and not a bunch of hypocrites than they need to switch the state over to only wind, solar & electric eel energy to charge their electric cars 

 

Whats the point in your comment? Is it helpful?

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I'm amused at all the nay-sayers, name callers, and false facts.

 

As to Newsom's executive order:  Automobile manufactures will be selling electric cars almost exclusively by 2035 in spite of the order, not because of it. Don't take my word for it, just read the auto industries own projections and press releases. Before you assume they are doing it for the environment, don't for a second think money and profits are not their primary motive.

 

Mock Gov. Newsom, mock the auto manufactures, mock the tree huggers, mock the electric companies.  It won't change the fact the electric cars will dominate the roads in 15-20 years (maybe sooner).  Remain tribally committed to what you perceive as the superiority of our antique cars with internal combustion engines if you like. Those outside the hobby are not bothered by the changes, they are even encouraging it. They will purchase their next care solely for its utilitarian value. Gas, electric, hybrid, hydrogen, rubber bands - they simply don't care, as long as it gets them from point a to point b.


Refusing to acknowledge what you might consider unpleasant facts won't change reality... THESE INEVITABLE CHANGES WILL EFFECT OUR HOBBY!

 

We can collectively stick out heads in the sand to the detriment to our hobby, or we can accept the inevitable changes and plan accordingly.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

You may want to read a little more of that NASA report you reference.  1.7 degrees Fahrenheit mean temp rise may not sound like much but it has shifted ocean currents drastically, causing melting of the ice fields of the arctic and huge weather changes across the US.  The synopsis of effects for the US are summarized along with a brief article on the difference a degree makes appear in the NASA report here.  If you are gonna quote the NASA report don't cherry pick it without reading it in it's entirety.

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/effects/

 

 

Try this one on for size;

The CO2 levels today are around 400 PPM, the CO2 levels during the Cretaceous period ( 66million to 145 million years ago) were at 1,000 PPM's CO2. At that time there were no polar ice caps and there was a inland sea in the Midwest. Mean surface Temps were average 11 degrees Celsius higher. More importantly the earths axis does a swing between 21.1 deg. and 24.5 every 41,000 years. So my question is where did all this CO2 come from in the Cretaceous period?

image.jpeg.0579ebe415175cf0918731af5990a118.jpegThe Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous Periods

 

Know what the ocean temps were then???

Surface water temperatures were about 30 °C (86 °F) at the Equator year-round, but at the poles they were 14 °C (57 °F) in winter and 17 °C (63 °F) in summer.

 

Some of us know you can never hold the earths climate in a steady state. It may just be possible the earth is taking a swing back to where it once was.

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11 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Try this one on for size;

The CO2 levels today are around 400 PPM, the CO2 levels during the Cretaceous period ( 66million to 145 million years ago) were at 1,000 PPM's CO2. At that time there were no polar ice caps and there was a inland sea in the Midwest. Mean surface Temps were average 11 degrees Celsius higher. More importantly the earths axis does a swing between 21.1 deg. and 24.5 every 41,000 years. So my question is where did all this CO2 come from in the Cretaceous period?

image.jpeg.0579ebe415175cf0918731af5990a118.jpegThe Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous Periods

 

Know what the ocean temps were then???

Surface water temperatures were about 30 °C (86 °F) at the Equator year-round, but at the poles they were 14 °C (57 °F) in winter and 17 °C (63 °F) in summer.

 

Some of us know you can never hold the earths climate in a steady state. It may just be possible the earth is taking a swing back to where it once was.

 

Great.  Let's assume you are right. 

Does ignoring the change benefit us as a society?  Climate change deniers sure a hell do.

Should we not be acknowledging the change?

Planning for it? Measuring it? Apply some science to it?

Know its positive and negative effects and start addressing them? 

Or do we stick our collective heads in the sand and ignore it? 

Do we simply scratch our heads in wonder where the rainfall has gone for our food crops?

Do we ignore the temperatures skyrocketed in our cities causing blackouts.
Do we watch blindly as sea life parishes, and subsequently cut offs a huge source of the world's food supply?


 

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2 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

Great.  Let's assume you are right. 

Does ignoring the change benefit us as a society?  Should we not be acknowledging the change? Planning for it? Measuring it? Apply some science to it?

Know its positive and negative effects and start addressing them?  Or do we stick our collective heads in the sand and ignore it?
 

 

Rational actors can have a reasonable discussion.   Talking climate is the same thing as talking religion.

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3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Rational actors can have a reasonable discussion.   Talking climate is the same thing as talking religion.

 

Rational actors talk climate change BECAUSE it's a reasonable discussion.

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On 9/23/2020 at 9:59 AM, John348 said:

Interesting thread,

 

I feel the need to ask this question, How many of us have children who grew up around the hobby and those children have no interest in the hobby? I have three sons who grew up around the hobby as I did. Traveled all over the country going to meets. One has some interest, and even has one of my Father's car, the other two really could care less. The problem I see is that their spouses have no interest, just my opinion 

 

I know myself having grown up in the hobby, I continued with it. My fathers interest turned to antique toys, and I had no interest in them at all. I have been selling them off for several years at my leisure, and everything sells so there is an interest in that hobby, but nowhere near the prices he paid for things 40-30 years ago. I can see this hobby going down the same path 

 

I wonder if my father is on an air and space forum somewhere saying this about me! He's about 67, i just turned 33 the other day, and from the time i was born, i was brought around the country to museums, events, launches, exhibits, air shows, anything to do with air craft, space, rocketry, etc. and even just narrowly avoided going to space camp one year, as soon as i was old enough to start staying home and skipping these trips, i did. Not even that i was rebelious or angry about going to those places, there were some fun trips and i got to see alot at a young age, it just wasnt something i was so interested in that i wanted to spend my school vacation week at  Cape Canaveral/ Kennedy Space Center. i started out being interested in old cycle cars/ edwardian era,  and kind of Brooklands race car stuff before i really knew what it was. Then in my early 20s, i got into later model truck stuff, then older trucks and have settled back into prewar cars, but with actually owning and working on them, rather than just admiring as a kid, with my current 1937 Buick while keeping my C10 truck.  My father has absolutely zero interest in old cars, and even the stuff that i work on that seems to be popular with that age bracket, (66 GTO's, chevelles, tri-five stuff) just doesnt tickle his fancy, which is fine. 

 

I dont typically buy the car hobby is dying argument doom and gloom. Its definitely changing in regards to how cars are worked on, and what the kids want, but it seems like there were always young people going after new cars from whatever era they are in, and others went for old stuff. Im sure the kids who could afford it, went out and bought shiny new 1949 Oldsmobiles, while others were playing with prewar roadsters/ hot rodding. now instead, its kids who can afford it or can make payments, go out and get new mustangs or chargers or porsches, while others are going for 30+yr old project cars in the form of 2nd or 3rd gen camaros, fox body mustangs or datsuns. I know plenty of people my age, and within a decade either way of my age, with pre war cars, although they may not be perfect restorations, many are nicely done and built to a certain era using period parts. Regardless of whats being worked on and by whom, i think cars still represent some sense of freedom to certain young people and in turn become very passionate about the hobby. The car hobby has certainly shaped the way my life is today in a very positive way. 

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23 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

 

Rational actors talk climate change BECAUSE it's a reasonable discussion.


Is it typically a discussion or a lecture?  One side “knows” and is simply trying to educate the unbelievers.  Or have you actually witnessed a give and take?  I haven’t.

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