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1929 Cadillac 341B (New price $22,500) - Reduced to $20,000


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https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/d/scottsdale-1929-cadillac-4-door-sedan/7198166452.html

1929 Cadillac 4 door sedan series 341B
Dual side mounts, luggage rack with trunk, not shown. 
Buffalo knock-off wire wheels
Classic Car Club of America full classic
Very nice survivor with older cosmetic restoration
Body by Fisher
V-8 engine, 341 cubic inch, 95 h.p. 140 inch wheel base, weight 5,000lbs
Runs and drives well, Az title since 1998, previously California
Located in Scottsdale
Price $26,500.00

Calls preferred
Thank you, Jim

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  • 4 weeks later...

I was initially discouraged by the asking price given my ownership of an identical car, but then I took a closer look at this car. A LOT of needs and probably not nearly as nice as it looks in photos. Lots of important little stuff is missing or incorrect and I bet the paint is much worse than it looks in photos. I suspect it's more than a "clean it up and go" situation.

 

A few more price drops and I'd be in just to have a parts car. With a fresh torque tube, I could give the overdrive another try...

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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  • Laughing Coyote changed the title to 1929 Cadillac 341B (New price $22,500)
59 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Beautiful vehicle, but I admit I know nothing about this stuff. That being said, it's without a doubt the prettiest "parts car" I've ever seen.

 

 

Jim, for it to be qualified as a parts car, it would need to be complete .........which it is not........

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My 1929 Town sedan. Bought from eBay for $25,000.

A postcard from the "Chapman Auto Museum" in Texas offering the car dated 1975 shows the same tires it has now. (no cracks it was warehouse stored since the 1970s) I have yet to replace them. 

 

Seller said it ran but of course it did not.  (stuck valves and heads stuck to studs)

Pull engine for total rebuild by machine shop that does full classic work on the side = $15,000  Yes, I did EVERYTHING! poured babbit new roller and pins on lifters, etc. (A full classic engine is not a Ford flathead, there are no shortcuts)

 

Then rebuilt and repair; starter, generator, carb, vacuum tank, clutch, brake linings, fuel sender and dash gauge, Shutter thermostat rebuilt, Steele rubber stuff, etc., etc.  

 

I have $25,000 in it making it run and operate reliably. (parts only, did my own work)

 

Last painted in late 1960s(?) Still shines. . . .

It has a VERY NICE original interior 🙂   

I dont plan to do much more to the aesthetics. Chrome is shiny . . . . 

 

So how much? Well, I am now into it for $50,000.

Value to sell? It has been estimated that it might realistically produce $30,000 cash in hand (closed body style)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Ben P. said:

Alright, the 1928/29 Cadillac just happens to be my favorite car, and even though I’ll probably never own one I’ve monitored the asking prices for these things in the Brown Scourge (HMN) for the past 40 years and this is the lowest price I’ve ever seen for an intact running/driving one.

So I’ve got to ask: Just what would the cost be to bring this one up to presentable touring condition (summer use touring, 3 to 500 miles per year - not the crazy cross country tours some of you compete on)?
I’ve got an idea as to what paint/body and interior would cost and what I could live with (not this ‘refurbished’ idea of an interior and definitely not one of the ‘original upholstery’ otherwise fully ‘restored’ cars - wouldn’t touch one of those with a 10 foot pole).

Realistically, what would it take to bring this car up to mechanical snuff?

(I can tell you to the penny what it takes for a 1918 Buick....)


 

The problem with Cadillac’s is tenfold over a Buick. I could go on for hours. And yes, I have owned a bunch of them....and driven them tens of thousands of miles. Any Cadillac with a four or eight cylinder engine built before 1932 is a HUGE handful for countless reasons. The work, and the money never......ever stop. The car in the photo has lots of problems......I’m not trying to dump on it, but I see so many things looking at the photos in under a minute it makes me want to run away screaming. I won’t own a car that is incorrect, incomplete, or suffers from poor workmanship. We don’t know the condition of the wood. We don’t know the condition of the engine/chassis, and add in the electrical system, tires, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect..........there is NO END to the downside of a “cheap Cadillac”.

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My '29 has been bulletproof reliable for 10 years now. Admittedly I didn't drive it much this year, but it has never let us down. Perhaps I should 1) consider myself lucky, and 2) assume that there are problems ahead if I keep driving it? Meh. I need to get it out and drive it more next summer.

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A '29 341B five passenger coupe sets in storage about two miles from here.  Typical partially disassembled project acquired by a fellow who "never got around to it" then wished it off on his nephew.    Probably much more of a parts car, unlikely ever to be restored, though the nephew continues to harbor visions of such.

Edited by 58L-Y8 (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, Ben P. said:

Since I shared a snarky opinion on ‘original upholstery’ cars I ought to clarify:

 

This is my original cloth, 90 year old interior. 

I can forgive a lot of paint issues that others would not stand for, but I REALLY appreciate and seek out a nice original interior. I agree with you that except for some very popular heavily reproduced cars it is either expensive or near impossible to make them correct. 

 

I was disappointed that it didn't run as the seller claimed, but I also knew that I could rebuild the mechanicals (I didnt expect it to cost so much however) and the car DID have a nice interior that I would be happy with. 

$_57.JPG

$_58.JPG

$_52.JPG

$_4.JPG

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The interior in my Fisher (base model) is Mohair (hair from the Angora Goat) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohair

Different from sheep wool. Read about it, soft but also rather durable. 

 

I haven't seen too many cars RESTORED with this mohair cloth. Typically owners go with (wool) broadcloth or modern velour. 

But as I said, I prefer good (not necessary perfect) original. 

 

Oh and something else I learned about these cars. (my first 1929 car ) You know that the wood framing is an issue, but what is rarely discussed is the POT METAL! The car is filled with the poor 1920s alloy all over the place. 

 

Steering column switches and lever supports, all tail & cowl light supports, speedo cable into transmission, fuel tank sending unit, etc. 

ALL these were shattered and need to be replaced with new brass castings. (several were already broken and had been glued together) 

 

The Distributor is also made from the same crap and shatters. (mine was already glued together).  A car cant run with a shattered distributor. Classic & Exotic Services in Michigan reproduces them in real metal (thankfully) BUT . . . . at $2000(!) this is the most I have ever paid for a distributor. . . . . The radiator (Brass works) was $3000 . . . If you want to make it right (and very reliable) . . . .you just have to pay. . . .  

 

This reinforces what Ed was saying about the expense of buying a 'cheap' unrestored car. 

 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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I didn’t go into the detail of pot Metal.........but it’s one of the major reasons Cadillac’s are very, very expensive to own. 

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Naive question...   is pot metal prevalent on many 1928-1932 cars (or maybe wider date range)?   Did Cadillac do something different to be more of a problem - or is it related to scarcity of parts for certain makes/models?  If there is a previous thread, I didn't find it.   Thanks!

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On 10/22/2020 at 1:15 AM, edinmass said:

I didn’t go into the detail of pot Metal.........but it’s one of the major reasons Cadillac’s are very, very expensive to own. 

You have to give Mike Butters a try at castings. He is very busy even though he is full time at it. But his prices are very reasonable and does top quality work shipping parts around the world. He did all the castings on my 30 Cadillac.  

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One can go to school on GM pot Metal. Long story short.......1928 and before not so bad, 1929 and most of 1930 is terrible, 1931 and later is much improved. All of it needing rechrome sucks.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 10/21/2020 at 5:45 PM, m-mman said:

My 1929 Town sedan. Bought from eBay for $25,000.

A postcard from the "Chapman Auto Museum" in Texas offering the car dated 1975 shows the same tires it has now. (no cracks it was warehouse stored since the 1970s) I have yet to replace them. 

 

Seller said it ran but of course it did not.  (stuck valves and heads stuck to studs)

Pull engine for total rebuild by machine shop that does full classic work on the side = $15,000  Yes, I did EVERYTHING! poured babbit new roller and pins on lifters, etc. (A full classic engine is not a Ford flathead, there are no shortcuts)

 

Then rebuilt and repair; starter, generator, carb, vacuum tank, clutch, brake linings, fuel sender and dash gauge, Shutter thermostat rebuilt, Steele rubber stuff, etc., etc.  

 

I have $25,000 in it making it run and operate reliably. (parts only, did my own work)

 

Last painted in late 1960s(?) Still shines. . . .

It has a VERY NICE original interior 🙂   

I dont plan to do much more to the aesthetics. Chrome is shiny . . . . 

 

So how much? Well, I am now into it for $50,000.

Value to sell? It has been estimated that it might realistically produce $30,000 cash in hand (closed body style)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but your accomplishment is priceless.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/21/2020 at 7:55 PM, Ben P. said:

Yup, that’s exactly what I wanted to know and that would explain the ‘parts car’ comments. Since my skill set requires me to pay shop rate for everything I’d unquestionably be limited to one that’s had everything redone - and recently. Even then I’d probably still be in over my head. Yeah I might get into one of these on the other side of the Pearly Gates.

 

Since I shared a snarky opinion on ‘original upholstery’ cars I ought to clarify:

I’ve seen just two types of ‘original upholstery’ restored cars. 1) Truly nicely preserved ones - which I’d be so fearful of damaging I probably wouldn’t enjoy the car.

2) Well decomposed ones that the owner has declared ‘worth preserving’ (and might have actually convinced himself of) after finding out the sheer cost of replacing - which is probably equal to the car’s full value. Possibly more. The Fisher interiors were especially nicely done and it’s doubtful that more than a handful of people are even capable of coming remotely close to matching them today. Very doubtful.

 

These wood framed cars - if it’s not a Ford or certain Chevies and it wasn’t already fully (fully - not cosmetically) restored by the late 1970’s/early 80’s it most likely will never be. The few people today with the skill and experience to do it right all have a shop rate. It was a different world in the 70’s/‘80’s when a few of the people who built these cars were still around and could dabble with restorations or at least share their expertise.

I am fully restoring my 1929 Marmon touring speedster, and I had to face the reality of replacing the rooten wood frames of two doors...it is a nightmare these days...

Edited by JRA (see edit history)
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  • 1 month later...
  • Laughing Coyote changed the title to 1929 Cadillac 341B (New price $22,500) - Reduced to $20,000
On 10/26/2020 at 1:33 AM, edinmass said:

One can go to school on GM pot Metal. Long story short.......1928 and before not so bad, 1929 and most of 1930 is terrible, 1931 and later is much improved. All of it needing rechrome sucks.

 

Do you mean pot-metal trim?  What trim, such as

interior door handles and dashboard?

Is it correct that the carburetors are pot-metal 

and problematic?

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  • 2 months later...

Could any of you expand on what is not correct on this car or what it is missing as I am trying to learn about the older Cadillacs.  Is there a best of the 20s decade Cadillac to use as a diver?  Knowing it would be a back road driving car.  Be kind to a newbie thanks.

 

Kurt 

1954 Cadillac 75 series driver

1973 Cadillac Hearse 

2010 CTS4

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Kurt, we're always happy to help a newcomer!

 

I don't have specific knowledge.  I read what others,

more expert, have said.  Here is a quotation from

"Edinmass," who is a collection manager knowledgeable

in Classics such as this:

 

"One last note on the Cadillac’s of 1929-1932. They can be reliable and fun.......but due to age, design, and other factors......they are much more of a challenge than other brands. Running a large displacement engine at speed in a vacuum tank wasn’t a good idea. Add in age, less than optimum carburetion , poorly done service and repairs, modern fuel formulas, and you end up with a car that’s particularly challenging to dial in and keep running right. The pot metal Cadillac used everywhere doubles your misery and triples your expense. The Delco distributors are really starting to suffer from metal fatigue.........and they are expensive to fix. Cadillac’s are consistently the the most work.......and the most hacked at and modified cars on the road."

 

There are a few threads where people have mentioned the

difficulties of 1929 Cadillacs.  People have said that Cadillacs

of 1928 and earlier are less problematic;  but repairs on any

can be many thousands of dollars.  Here is the thread where

you can find Ed's quote above:

 

 

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Thanks John, I have read the threads in the two different pages.  One of them mentions that this 1929 Cadillac is not a complete car ?  What is it missing ?  What has scared people away from this car? 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/cadillac/341b/2472767.html


Thank you did your reply and time.... I really want to add a 20s Cadillac to my family.

 

there is a 1927 that’s in Rhode Island I am interested in also.  But I can only get one.

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8 hours ago, Kurt Zimmerle said:

Is there a best of the 20s decade Cadillac to use as a diver?  


Yes, Kurt !

The objective reality for the driving you crave , is an easy, indisputable answer. The V63 Cadillacs of 1924 and 1925 are the sweet spot for ‘20s Cads. Hands down, the most rugged and metallurgically robust Cad of the ‘20s. A good case could be made for the proposition of the previous sentence I wrote just before this, if you change the word “Cad” to “car”. I am quite comfortable defending this thesis, and would enjoy the opportunity to do so. For now, and in the interest of efficiency in data transfer, I invite you to call me again, to download my  head. I am falling behind in everything just now, but I can be stopped in my tracks for a welcome car talk. Try anytime convenient for you. It might just be convenient for me too. PM sent.     -    CC

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I have recommended Maurice Hendry’s book on Cadillacs to all car lovers. He writes quite a bit about V63 Cadillacs and the development of the inherently balanced V8 for the 1924 model year. General Motors had the engineers and mathematicians to pull off this feat. Long before triaxial accelerometers and the computers to analyze and interpret their signals. You mechanical engineers understand what a triumph this was for the early 1920s. For the rest of us who are not engineers, this textbook will give you a peep through the keyhole into the nature of the game. I am not fortunate enough to know calculus, obviously differential equations neither. But anyone mechanically inclined will gain some appreciation of these GM guys working a century ago. I purchase books dealing with subjects of interest, but vastly above my understanding from time to time. I can usually get something of value to me from them, but the humility I feel before guys and gals who know so incredibly much, is priceless. 
 

1924 Cadillacs had no flies on them. The same engineering department which built that milestone engine, built the rest of car, (despite certain archaic elements - albeit very tough rugged stuff), too. The chapter you see here is testament to that. The Nairn brothers who inaugurated this passenger, freight, and mail service across uncharted stretches of Mideastern desert picked 1924 Cadillacs. The cool running, reliable V63s were credited with making their company. Nairns stated that if they could have had a better car, they would have bought them. Good enough for me. I bought one too.

 

Treat yourself to an extremely good read. Loose old copies like this one are readily available. Maybe $10. $15 max. Or browse one up at your next swap meet, hopefully soon 😊 !     -    Carl 

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3C6FE8EB-1466-41BC-8257-FF84C8F97278.jpeg

Edited by C Carl
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What would be the key differences between 1926/1927 314 model to 1928/1929 341 model? Are they much different in complexity or cost to restore? Mechanically, is there any major evolution, technically or in driveability? 

Which one is easier to restore, maintain or drive?
Same level of potmetal problems for both models?


 

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18 hours ago, Kurt Zimmerle said:

Is there a best of the 20s decade Cadillac to use as a driver?  Knowing it would be a back road driving car.  

 

Cars, and the roads for them, were making

marked advancements in the 1920's.  Speeds

were increasing.  Kurt, make sure you have plenty

of lower-speed back roads so you can enjoy your

car unhurried.  Also, know the comfortable speed

for whatever car you're looking at.  Northern Michigan

should be good unless you get too much tourist traffic. 

People who live in urban areas often find they have

no place to enjoy their early cars.

 

In 1916, Pennsylvania's state speed limit was 24 m.p.h.

on the open roads, and 12 in town.  My 1916 Locomobile,

a large car for its day, is in top gear around 25 m.p.h. 

and its "sweet spot" is 25 to 35.  In 1928, the Jordan

car company did a survey:  Most drivers never exceeded

45 m.p.h.  It was said that the average speed on the 

roads was increasing about 1 m.p.h. per year in the 

1910's and 1920's.

 

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, JRA said:

What would be the key differences between 1926/1927 314 model to 1928/1929 341 model? Are they much different in complexity or cost to restore? Mechanically, is there any major evolution, technically or in driveability? 

Which one is easier to restore, maintain or drive?
Same level of potmetal problems for both models?


 

 

WHICH ONE IS EASIER TO RESTORE, MAINTAIN, OR DRIVE?

 

None of them. Early Cadillac's as a first pre war car is like deciding to take up running as a hobby and after the first month deciding to do the Boston Marathon. Yes, you can do it......but it's one hell of a challenge. The most important thing on a 1920's Cadillac is buy one that is COMPLETE and RUNNING. By running I mean it can be driven fifty miles without issue. I want to encourage you and see you buy an early car.......but it's important to understand that some cars have good availibility of parts and help from others.........and some can prove very challanging to deal with after fifty years in the hobby. Buying a good car as I refer to it will smooth your way 80 percent..........learning curves to service, repair, and locate parts can be very, very difficult. It could happen that a part you need could take months or longer to locate.......regardless  of price. A good running car is unlikely to stick your wallet and the car in the garage. The market on these car is very soft......which is good for you as a deal can usually be made. A great Cadillac is only 5-10 thousand dollars more than a barn find the doesn't run. And trust me, 10k on a early Cadillac doesn't get you very far. Don't be afraid of them. Be sure and buy a finished turn key car........you can enjoy it right away. And you won't be disappointed. There is lots of help here for new people........everyone here likes to see new people in the hobby. As you can see from my signature block below, I was a Cadillac guy for many years. I now collect Pierce Arrow's. Packard, Buick, and many other great cars were built in the 20's. Look at ALL of them, they all have pluses and minuses. No car is perfect. Look around and see what people have. It's a great hobby, and earlier cars are much more fun than post war stuff..........Ed

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Here is a decent paragraph about cars in general........

   On 2/7/2021 at 11:58 PM,  jrbartlett said: 

 

 

People ask me all the time which of my cars is my favorite. I don't have a favorite -- I like them all, depending on what I have going on. The Duesy for show, because it's flashy and well-restored, but I also built it up for driving. The Packard for simple, trouble-free cruising in a high-quality car. The Cord for showing off in a slinky car . The Locomobile because it's just so darned interesting, like a steam train engine. And the Auburn as a pretty fair compromise between light weight, small size, strong engine, high top speed, and a lot of chrome and public appeal.    


I agree with the above.......cars are like people.They are all interesting and different. I have huge amounts of miles in Cadillac’s and Pierce Arrows. Well over 50k in each.........cars from 1929-1936. I have always tried to drive as many different platforms as possible. It’s now to the point I have driven so many pre war cars I can tell how they will be going down the road just from experience. Mostly CID is you best guide, then year, then cost when new. Fact is most cars fall into a price category and performance envelope that makes them very similar. The ones that fall outside the predicted performance range are very interesting. Auburns are one good example. They drive exceptionally well for their displacement and original price. While the body construction is about the same quality as Chevy, they run like a Packard. They were a fantastic value for the money when new. The early big T head’s are also another fun spot in the hobby. Usually exceptionally well made and very mechanical in nature. They run great for their era. I find that unless I have five hundred miles on any particular platform you really don’t know it. Some cars get better and more interesting after you have ten hours of windshield time......others not so much. Today what interests me is any car that will comfortably drive 45-50 mph or better in STOCK condition without being wound up or out. I don’t  like driving all day looking in my mirror to see if some kid is on their cell phone and not paying attention to the old car in front of them. I seldom drive my T anywhere near civilization. I find there is no one best car..........too many are interesting in so many ways. What really floats my boat is a good running and well sorted car that is rare and unusual. I like to be able to park anywhere at an old car event where experienced people ask......”what is that?” Fact is most old cars are better than people think....it’s just that they are not properly taken car of that give them bad reputations. Some are more work than others........the trick is to embrace the service and maintenance. I enjoy spending time in the shop. And I enjoy the challenge of fixing things that most other people can’t. All these years later.........I still find it just as entertaining as I did as a teenager. The last six months digging into the Stearns Knight eight, and my 1917 White Dual Valve have been exceptionally entertaining. New challenges that were fun to figure out. A few of the hurdles were particularly difficult and I would have been happy to stay ignorant of the challenge. Age is definitely creeping in on me know. It’s harder to see now that I must have glasses......so it makes fixing thing much more difficult. I’m getting content to just drive and maintain things now. I’m definitely running out of steam on total restorations..............this weeks adventure is a V-16 Cadillac that was as perfectly sorted as I could possibly get it...........seems to have developed a starter issue........it never ends.

Edited February 8 by edinmass (see edit history)

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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