1936 1603 Starter Cranking Slowly

[1937 Buick 66C]

Greetings to all,

 

I have recently gotten my 1936 1603 v12 running.  I note that is cranks very, very slowly and heats up the cables between the battery and starter after 10-15 seconds of operation.  All cables connections are in excellent condition, and clean.  I am seeking ny suggestions for next steps to address this issue, including vendors where the starter could be assessed / rebuilt.

 

I am in Colorado, therefore any potential sources of technical expertise nearby would be very welcome!!

 

Jon B Kanas

kanas@qadas.com

[S36PA]

John,

If the cable(s ?) are getting hot, it most likely is too small of a cable, a bad connection on the cable, or less likely, a fault in the starter that is causing it to draw too much current or a poor battery.  I know you said all connections are clean, but, sometimes the crimp is bad and you can't tell. Also, woven ground straps can cause a lot of resistance. Cables should be #00 cable as a minimum, don't use cables designed for 12V, they are not heavy enough. What is the voltage at the battery when cranking. It should be at least 4.8v.  Check next at the starter, it should be close to the same. If not, start checking voltages and work your way back to the battery checking at each connection.  If you get an increase at one connection, it is either that connection or the one before it, depending on which side of the connection you put your voltmeter on, or that cable.  Check both - and + circuits.  Ground cable connections are notorious for being bad.  If you have not taken it apart and cleaned it, don't count on it being a good connection.

 

The Pierce-Arrow Society website tells me you are a current PAS member, so, if you are looking for Pierce-Arrow Society members near you, go to the PAS website under member pages and go to the Member Roster. In the search function enter CO in the state and you will get two pages of CO members.  I saw one other listed in Longmont. 

 

You can also do a technical search under Publications in the Members Area of the PAS site for articles on starter problems.

 

You might also post this on the PAS website Message Board. I think more of the PA gurus check that page. The Parts and Services Directory on the PAS site should list some vendors that rebuild starters.

 

Good luck. Let us know how this turns out

 

Dave

[1937 Buick 66C]

Good Evening Dave et al,

 

I will take your advice and carry my question forward to the technical area of the PAS site. 

 

Per your diagnostic suggestion(s)

• The battery cables on this car are huge, and in excellent condition.  The printing on the insulation reads "Direct Wire and Cable 600V Welding 1/0.  Measuring the diameter of the cable, over the insulation, is .550".  I don't have a good way to get to a bare conductor to measure it's diameter. 
• I note that the heating of the cables is uniform, and is not noticeable until I've been cranking the starter for 15 or 20 seconds.  All of the cables and connectors warm up at about the same rate.  I can find no "hot spots" that would indicate increased resistance at that point.

I got it started easily this evening (probably less than 5 sec cranking), got it up to 180F engine temperature, then ran out of fuel.  That's enough for tonight.  I'll make a run for some E0 fuel later in the week, then check the voltages at the starter when cranking.

 

Thank you again,

Jon Kanas

 

[S36PA]

Jon,

Check the voltage while cranking at the battery posts and then at the starter post and case. If there is much difference, there is either  a bad connection or the cables are too small.  Most recommendations for 6v are for 2/0 cables.

 

Dave

[Bob Jacobsen]

Jon et al,

 

I had the same problem with my '33 1242 after a ring job (yes, the gaps are ok).  We did 3 things to make sure we got good voltage at the starter: 1) Pulled the starter and turned the commutator on a lathe for a uniform contact surface, 2) bypassed the security/shutoff switch, and 3) changed from a 2-year old Optima battery to the biggest standard lead-acid battery we could fit in the box.  Problem solved.  (I have 3 concerns about recent Optima batteries both for quality control, and the fact that they only have 50 amp-hour capacity, versus the prescribed 150+ amp-hour batteries in '33 and the present huge lead-acid batteries.  Also, Optimas have a slightly higher cell voltage, so some "smart" battery chargers may not charge them fully.  No conclusive proof, just concerns.)

Everything has to be right for the 12 to start easily, since starter has the same guts (only a different label) as the 8.  Cables should be at least 1/0, or better yet, 0/00.

Best,

Bob

[1937 Buick 66C]

23 hours ago, Bob Jacobsen said:

Jon et al,

 

I had the same problem with my '33 1242 after a ring job (yes, the gaps are ok).  We did 3 things to make sure we got good voltage at the starter: 1) Pulled the starter and turned the commutator on a lathe for a uniform contact surface, 2) bypassed the security/shutoff switch, and 3) changed from a 2-year old Optima battery to the biggest standard lead-acid battery we could fit in the box.  Problem solved.  (I have 3 concerns about recent Optima batteries both for quality control, and the fact that they only have 50 amp-hour capacity, versus the prescribed 150+ amp-hour batteries in '33 and the present huge lead-acid batteries.  Also, Optimas have a slightly higher cell voltage, so some "smart" battery chargers may not charge them fully.  No conclusive proof, just concerns.)

Everything has to be right for the 12 to start easily, since starter has the same guts (only a different label) as the 8.  Cables should be at least 1/0, or better yet, 0/00.

Best,

Bob

Good Evening Dave, Bob et al,

 

Bob / Dave, Thank you for your quick responses.  When my father-in-law acquired this car, it had a weird arrangement of cables, solenoids and relays to allow two 6V batteries to work in series to feed the starter 12V, and parallel for charging and chassis electrical.   I am trying to get it back to what Pierce-Arrow intended.  Now that I've been running the engine almost daily, I'm not certain that I have a real problem with the starter, although numerous other issues are making themselves known, as one would expect after a long period of disuse. 

 

I am finding that it starts immediately after the electric fuel pump primes the carbs, and two or three throttle strokes before engaging the starter.  It was only the first few attempts (getting the starter working after correcting a number of misplaced cables) where I ran the starter long enough to heat the wiring.  Since I had never heard it start or run before, I thought that it was cranking very slowly.  Based on the noisy lifters and condition of the fuel system, I think two weeks ago was the first time the engine had been started in nearly a decade.

 

I am out of town at the present time, so have not had an opportunity to check cranking voltage yet.  I want to make certain that the starter is not drawing too much current;  It having previously been fed 12V could not have been good for it.  I have verified 1/0 welding cable throughout the starting circuit and grounds;  That's the same gauge that I used when I restored my Buick and has been working well. 

 

Until I read your post, I did not realize the Pierce wanted 150Ah reserve;  No wonder I'm seeing rapid depletion.  I am using an Optima battery for the 1603 that is about 6mos old.  My charger gets it up do nearly 7.0V when fully float charged, but the reserve is minimal;  The charger is 15A, and has a setting for AGM batteries, so I think it's charging properly.  After a couple of starts, the reserve is depleted and it takes a few hours to bring it back.  This is aggravated by car not charging (I'll post about this issue separately), so it's running off of the battery alone. 

 

Optima Commentary:  I used to use Optima batteries exclusively, since they did not leak in my old cars and had plenty of CCA.  In the last two years, I have had 2 12V Optima batteries fail, both at around 3yrs old.  Previous Optimas I owned would last 7-10 years.  This is very unsatisfactory for a battery that typically costs double what I'd pay for a wet cell battery.

[edinmass]

Besides the regular heavy battery cables, Pierce Arrow’s had additional ground wires running from the frame to the engine bell housing. When we restore cars for driving and not judging, we run two of them instead of one. Also note, the starter is prone to snapping off the nose cone, often times, they are welded.......and crooked, causing slow turning, binding, and overheating of the wires. Pierce 12’s are great cars......but they can be very frustrating to get sorted correctly. Also, be careful as parts can get ridiculously expensive. People often snap off carburetor bowls over tightening fuel lines. Electric pumps are a must, but if not set up correctly are a huge fire risk. If you need help, PM me and I will give you my phone number. I have owned countless Pierce Arrow cars, and am the CCCA technician for the club for fifteen years or more. Ed Minnie.