Corvair cutting out :/

[rocketraider]

19 minutes ago, Duff71Riv said:

bought a clear glass filter 

Please don't put that leak looking for a place to happen on your car. Get a simple clear plastic to start, then later go to a metal body filter.

 

Those 3-piece glass and chrome potmetal filters ought to be illegal. One overtighten and you have a chip or crack that creates an air in-leak on pump suction or worse a fuel leak near a hot engine.

[Duff71Riv]

1 minute ago, rocketraider said:

Please don't put that leak looking for a place to happen on your car. Get a simple clear plastic to start, then later go to a metal body filter.

 

Those 3-piece glass and chrome potmetal filters ought to be illegal. One overtighten and you have a chip or crack that creates an air in-leak on pump suction or worse a fuel leak near a hot engine.

Thanks for the heads up!

[rocketraider]

If space is a concern a lot of 70s-80s carbureted Fords use a small diameter inline metal filter that should work well in the wheel well location the guys have suggested.

[padgett]

Back around 1970 the most popular V8 Corvair conversion was an aluminum Buick with or without turbo. Very little extra weight. Were some SBC conversions but did not handle well. Also at the time all Corvairs own by enthusiasts were what would be called "modified" today even if just a quick steering kit (from EMPI ?). A QJ mounted over the center of the fan was common as were trombones.

 

ps many Corvair people later had Fieros. I've had more than three of each but I forget...

[nickelroadster]

Corvairs were always bad about vapor lock.  I used to carry a piece of hose and rags so that I could blow into the gas tank on a 1960.  It wouldn't hurt to check the fuel pump for operation and see how hot it gets. 

[Duff71Riv]

39 minutes ago, padgett said:

Back around 1970 the most popular V8 Corvair conversion was an aluminum Buick with or without turbo. Very little extra weight. Were some SBC conversions but did not handle well. Also at the time all Corvairs own by enthusiasts were what would be called "modified" today even if just a quick steering kit (from EMPI ?). A QJ mounted over the center of the fan was common as were trombones.

 

ps many Corvair people later had Fieros. I've had more than three of each but I forget...

Were the v8s rear engined or mid engine crown conversions? 

[Duff71Riv]

17 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Corvairs were always bad about vapor lock.  I used to carry a piece of hose and rags so that I could blow into the gas tank on a 1960.  It wouldn't hurt to check the fuel pump for operation and see how hot it gets. 

My Corvair fuel pump has a little hole on top of it and when it runs I can feel a small puff from that hole w each cam cycle. Is that normal?

[Frank DuVal]

3 minutes ago, Duff71Riv said:

My Corvair fuel pump has a little hole on top of it and when it runs I can feel a small puff from that hole w each cam cycle. Is that normal?

 

Yes, that is the purpose of that vent hole.

 

Gasoline coming out of that hole is an issue, air is not.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

12 minutes ago, Duff71Riv said:

Were the v8s rear engined or mid engine crown conversions? 

 

Yes.

 

All have been tried. The aluminum Buick (Buick NEVER had a turbo on the aluminum V-8, that was Oldsmobile) went in back with a reverse rotation cam so the engine ran the same direction as the Corvair.

 

The SBC went where the back seat was ( Crown and Kelmark). 

 

A 500 cube Eldo transplant went under the rear window, same as  Toronado conversions.

 

I had a friend that ran a SBC Corvair st Southside Speedway for several years until it hit a wall. Later he built an aftermarket turbo 140 engine for a 68 convertible, that he said was faster than the SBC. 😲 It was very snappy!!!!!

Edited September 11, 2020 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

49 minutes ago, padgett said:

even if just a quick steering kit (from EMPI ?)

 

The short arms throw off the Ackerman angle on turns. But I ran them on my turbo anyway....😉 Still available from Corvair vendors.

 

I have had some "factory" length quick steering arms, made from shortening stock arms, they throw off the Ackerman way less. Of course the factory arms came with a fast box also, so I will not get the full effect of the factory quick steering option.

[rocketraider]

10 minutes ago, Duff71Riv said:

Were the v8s rear engined or mid engine crown conversions? 

Oh, lord, this boy is thinking evil thoughts...  Ryan, any chance you're thinking of engineering in college? I think you have the mindset for it.

 

There was a VW Bug here years ago that had a BBC mounted amidships and I think had a Toronado drivetrain. Everyone said the thing was gonna kill its owner, but what got him was the ultralight aircraft he built, powered by the VW boxer he took out of the Bug.

 

Ryan, if you go V8 'Vair, a Toro/Eldorado transmission might be an option. They're hard to kill.

[Frank DuVal]

Typical vapor lock in Corvairs is when you drive for a while, stop for 10 or so minutes at 7-11 or get a quick lunch, get back in the car and drive about 50 feet. and it will NOT start again. While running, the fuel pump sits high on the engine, in the cool air flow. Once stopped, the heat rises and boils the fuel in the pump.  Pump has a hard time trying to pump air (fuel vapor) so engine starves and quits. 

 

Quick fix is dump ice on the fuel pump. Permanent fix (if you have this problem) is to install an electric pump up front at tank with a momentary switch, run only when needed.3

 

I've never seen vapor lock happen while the engine was running. 60s were famous for carburetor icing. It is why the air cleaner system was changed for 1961.

[Duff71Riv]

9 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Oh, lord, this boy is thinking evil thoughts...  Ryan, any chance you're thinking of engineering in college? I think you have the mindset for it.

 

There was a VW Bug here years ago that had a BBC mounted amidships and I think had a Toronado drivetrain. Everyone said the thing was gonna kill its owner, but what got him was the ultralight aircraft he built, powered by the VW boxer he took out of the Bug.

 

Ryan, if you go V8 'Vair, a Toro/Eldorado transmission might be an option. They're hard to kill.

Hahahaha this made me laugh 😂 

Yes looking into either aerospace or mechanical engineering at Purdue ND or Embry Riddle, which ever accepts me haha. I was just thinking 289 merely because I have one but as Mr. Duval said a hopped up boxer could be easier and just as fast. 

[Duff71Riv]

9 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

Typical vapor lock in Corvairs is when you drive for a while, stop for 10 or so minutes at 7-11 or get a quick lunch, get back in the car and drive about 50 feet. and it will NOT start again. While running, the fuel pump sits high on the engine, in the cool air flow. Once stopped, the heat rises and boils the fuel in the pump.  Pump has a hard time trying to pump air (fuel vapor) so engine starves and quits. 

 

Quick fix is dump ice on the fuel pump. Permanent fix (if you have this problem) is to install an electric pump up front at tank with a momentary switch, run only when needed.3

 

I've never seen vapor lock happen while the engine was running. 60s were famous for carburetor icing. It is why the air cleaner system was changed for 1961.

Ok I've had that once where i park for gelato and come back and it dies and won't start. I think what I have right now is just a clogged filter in one of the carbs shutting down a bank and cutting the engine as a result. Good to know tho about the ice! I'll remember that

[padgett]

If you are carrying the inside front wheel off the ground in turns, the Ackerman does not really matter.

[Marty Roth]

On 9/10/2020 at 9:18 PM, Frank DuVal said:

Typical vapor lock in Corvairs is when you drive for a while, stop for 10 or so minutes at 7-11 or get a quick lunch, get back in the car and drive about 50 feet. and it will NOT start again. While running, the fuel pump sits high on the engine, in the cool air flow. Once stopped, the heat rises and boils the fuel in the pump.  Pump has a hard time trying to pump air (fuel vapor) so engine starves and quits. 

 

Quick fix is dump ice on the fuel pump. Permanent fix (if you have this problem) is to install an electric pump up front at tank with a momentary switch, run only when needed.3

 

I've never seen vapor lock happen while the engine was running. 60s were famous for carburetor icing. It is why the air cleaner system was changed for 1961.

 

In our 1965 Corvair Monza 110-engined convertible, we have an added electric fuel pump which was mounted by a prior owner. It is located well forward - essentially below the gas tank, and there is an accessory switch under the dash "just in case". We only had to use it rarely in the past five years, and we're in a relatively hot location here in New Orleans. As noted earlier, the typical situation is after being turned off for a short amount of time and then restarting. One potential way to help is to leave the engine cover (rear hood) open while running into the convenience store - and a side benefit is that you get to explain what you're driving, and maybe make new friends.

 

There was a Toronado conversion here in town many years back. We enjoyed our prior Corsa 4-carb '65 and '66 Corvairs, but driveability is just fine with our current 2-carb 110 hp Monza 4-speed, now showing 23,xxx miles - a driver-quality very dependable car just as it is.

[Duff71Riv]

Update -- I have the two new carb filters in, the old ones looked brand new 🤔😬. I checked the squirters, both carbs are great. I drove it again, 10 min later it just dies. It cranked over and ran again after I floored the pedal. I checked the fuel hard line to see if it was hot and it was still a moderate temperature. It was 60* today so I dont think it was vapor lock ive driven it in 100* for an hour and its been fine. I'm curious what I should check next, I don't believe it is fuel and the cap, plugs, plug wires, and points all look like then been recently replaced. Also the alternator is charging right at 14.2 so I dont think its an issue there if that would even have anything to do with it. So any help is again greatly appreciated! Thank you

Ryan

[rocketraider]

Two things to check:

 

Make sure your carb choke flaps are opening. Check them after engine is near operating temp. If they're not open, check the choke linkage, vacuum breaks if equipped, and finally the choke thermostatic coil.

 

Did you swap ignition coils to eliminate that possibility?

[95Cardinal]

The fuel tank inlet could be plugging up.

If there's enough debris to clog the "sock" on the pickup tube, it will starve the pump of fuel. Then, as soon as the engine stalls and there is no suction on the fuel line, the crap drops off the sock into the tank.

 

I had this happen on a car that sat for a long time. I had to blow the fuel lines out from the fuel pump back to the tank connections. It spewed out a bunch of rust particles and stuff that appeared to be bits of black fuel hose.

To test, you can run a temporary line to the fuel pump from a clean fuel can.

 

 

You haven't replaced the gas cap  recently, have you? Sometimes, today's "vented" gas caps aren't actually vented and they form an airtight seal on the filler tube.

To test it, drive with the cap loose to see if that solves the starvation problem.

 

[Duff71Riv]

46 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Two things to check:

 

Make sure your carb choke flaps are opening. Check them after engine is near operating temp. If they're not open, check the choke linkage, vacuum breaks if equipped, and finally the choke thermostatic coil.

 

Did you swap ignition coils to eliminate that possibility?

Oh that is a good idea I will check the chokes. I also totally forgot about the coil! I was so focused on fuel. Thank you for the reminder i will look into that. 

Ryan

[Duff71Riv]

14 minutes ago, 95Cardinal said:

The fuel tank inlet could be plugging up.

If there's enough debris to clog the "sock" on the pickup tube, it will starve the pump of fuel. Then, as soon as the engine stalls and there is no suction on the fuel line, the crap drops off the sock into the tank.

 

I had this happen on a car that sat for a long time. I had to blow the fuel lines out from the fuel pump back to the tank connections. It spewed out a bunch of rust particles and stuff that appeared to be bits of black fuel hose.

To test, you can run a temporary line to the fuel pump from a clean fuel can.

 

 

You haven't replaced the gas cap  recently, have you? Sometimes, today's "vented" gas caps aren't actually vented and they form an airtight seal on the filler tube.

To test it, drive with the cap loose to see if that solves the starvation problem.

 

I will try the vented cap idea. Its a new tank, lines, and carb- the owner before me did that last year. I shook the cap and i heard the clicking back and forth so the little stopper inside in case of a roll over was there and appearing functioning so I thinkkkkkk it is venting but wont hurt to try thanks!

[cheezestaak2000]

a bad condenser can cause permanate mental breakdowns as well

[padgett]

Can also try driving with the gas cap tight, stop and quickly unlatch the cap. If you hear a hiss and maybe some pops it it not vented.

[Duff71Riv]

Update two

I swapped coils from the riviera and it still stalls. I checked the vented gas cap and it doesn't seem to have any pressure. Im thinking it might be clogged jets in the carb so that is my next thing to check. It seems to have a constant bog now so would carb(s) make sense?

 

[padgett]

Can't hurt to clean them out.

[John348]

2 hours ago, Duff71Riv said:

Update two

I swapped coils from the riviera and it still stalls. I checked the vented gas cap and it doesn't seem to have any pressure. Im thinking it might be clogged jets in the carb so that is my next thing to check. It seems to have a constant bog now so would carb(s) make sense?

 

 

That sounds more like the accelerator pumps in the carbs to me. they don't like to sit for awhile dry. The old style do not react well with the ethanol gasoline

[rocketraider]

I'm ignorant of Corvair distributors and timing. Do they have mechanical advance? Thinking weights could be sticking.

[Frank DuVal]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:34 PM, Duff71Riv said:

Oh that is a good idea I will check the chokes. I also totally forgot about the coil! I was so focused on fuel. Thank you for the reminder i will look into that. 

Ryan

Only seen maybe two bad choke coils on the Rochester HV Corvair system. They are hiding under the head. Easy to adjust, though. Choke pull offs do fail, CPA 22 was the old aftermarket number. Corvair suppliers still carry replacements. Easy to test, remove vacuum hose from pull off, push in on link, cover hole on pull off with finger, release finger holding link in. Link should remain in forever. Do not even have to remove ANYTHING except vacuum hose to test.

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

accelerator pumps in the carbs to me. they don't like to sit for awhile dry. The old style do not react well with the ethanol gasoline

 

Lucky, now they make Viton pump cups for the Rochester HV. Several Corvair vendors sell them. (John Sweet, Rafee, Clarks, etc.)

 

I will say they have not been on the market for years yet, so time will tell if they hold up over say 5 or more years, but that is longer than the recent ones do.

[Frank DuVal]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:01 PM, Duff71Riv said:

I have the two new carb filters in, the old ones looked brand new 🤔😬. I checked the squirters, both carbs are great. I drove it again, 10 min later it just dies. It cranked over and ran again after I floored the pedal.

 

OK, but what about the most important test at that exact time, DID the accelerator pumps squirt at that time?

 

Just dies? As in no sputtering, just off like turning off the key? No getting weaker, low power, just OFF? No black smoke rolling out the exhaust?

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:21 PM, 95Cardinal said:

To test, you can run a temporary line to the fuel pump from a clean fuel can.

 

I've done this test. Works well, but keep safety in mind. A small outboard motor tank is great, but usually I just drop the end of test 5/16" fuel line into an open plastic bottle, like used oil quart bottle . Also used a lawn mower tank...

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

I'm ignorant of Corvair distributors and timing. Do they have mechanical advance? Thinking weights could be sticking.

 Standard GM 6 cylinder distributor from 1962 to the end of points, 1974.

 

Vacuum and mechanical advance.

 

I do not know why sticking weights would cause the car to cut off. Run poor, sure. And cut through the aluminum housing like a lathe, YEP! Seen that! Now, that DID cause a Corvair to stop on I-95 in Richmond. I took a spare distributor to get it running..... At least it was easy to troubleshoot, as the distributor was in two pieces..... Ahh, there's your problem!😄

 

The vacuum advance pulls on the points plate, which does wear a hole at the pivot and can loose conductivity, causing a weird misfire. Fixed lots of those.

.

[Frank DuVal]

5 hours ago, Duff71Riv said:

It seems to have a constant bog now

 

You mean it bogs everytime you press harder on the accelerator? 

[padgett]

Cutting out after 10 minutes sure sounds more like a heat related electrical problem. I put a Pertronixs electronic ignition in my last Monza, 10 minute job.

[John348]

When it cuts out see if the engine has spark or fuel, and that will get you going on the right path.

 

 

[Duff71Riv]

11 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

OK, but what about the most important test at that exact time, DID the accelerator pumps squirt at that time?

 

Just dies? As in no sputtering, just off like turning off the key? No getting weaker, low power, just OFF? No black smoke rolling out the exhaust?

Ohhh I see check the accelerator pump right after it stalls. Sorry that didn't register before that is really smart thank you! Sorry I have 2 years of experience max with old cars 😅 No smoke, Sometimes its immediate shutdown. Sometimes itll stumble then recover. And yes, it also bogs when Im driving every minute or so.  I was talking to my auto teacher he said the ethanol could of hurt the diaphragm in the fuel pump.. wouldn't hurt to check. 

 

Thank you to everyone for the continued help, I rlly appriciate it! 

[Duff71Riv]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

Cutting out after 10 minutes sure sounds more like a heat related electrical problem. I put a Pertronixs electronic ignition in my last Monza, 10 minute job.

I was actually just looking into those. I like how there's no wear points. Do those kits bolt to the stock distributor?

[padgett]

Yes, you pull the stock rotor, points, and condensor & replace with the Pertronix. Then swap the coil.

[John348]

22 minutes ago, Duff71Riv said:

I was actually just looking into those. I like how there's no wear points. Do those kits bolt to the stock distributor?

 

Do yourself a big favor, Don't even think of replacing the points with one of those units until you get it running first on the points. You can always get a car to run on points if it breaks down.

Isolate the problem then go forward from there before you MODIFY anything 

[Duff71Riv]

5 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Do yourself a big favor, Don't even think of replacing the points with one of those units until you get it running first on the points. You can always get a car to run on points if it breaks down.

Isolate the problem then go forward from there before you MODIFY anything 

Hahaha ok good point that can be down the road after I get it running solid again