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Engineering vs Esthetics in a first purchase of a CCCA Classic


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1 minute ago, zepher said:

 

 

How about some pics of that massive frame?
I am very curious to see it.


 

It was on my things to do......I’ll try and see if I can get a good photo, it’s ridiculously thick.........beyond any reasonable reason for it........the more I service this car, the more I like it. That’s a very, very rare occurrence!

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59 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

OK I am bias towards the Graham cars the Blue Streaks are easy to drive, just like any 1960's car easy steering, juice brakes, nice acceleration.  That is why I would look at a Buick....you ask why? because they made the Buick 8 until 1952, with almost all the same engine parts.  So the engine will not set you back a fortune if you have a problem, love the Grahams but I am always afraid I will have a major problems with impossible to find parts.

 

1933 Graham 64

Open House Picnic 2016 - Olson's Gaskets

 

1933 Buick Series 90 asking 37K    Hemmings link

67964648-770-0@2X.jpg?rev=1

 

That Graham sure is pretty!

 

As for the Buick in your post, it's local to me and had I not bought the '35 Lincoln it would be in my garage right now. If you're interested in a big Buick, you probably can't go wrong with that one (although it is not the same straight-8 as post-1936 cars).

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16 minutes ago, padgett said:

" it’s ridiculously thick." - probably to handle high speed railroad grade crossings.

 

Could be, but i would suspect a limited knowledge of metallurgy, and heat treatment processes back then.

My Jayco class super "C" on a Chevy C5500  chassis has only one spring leaf, with a "helper".

 

Ya'll know we've been on and off topic for 4 full pages since John started this thread back on September 7th.

I wonder if he ever found a car to his liking to jump in with ?

 

Mike in Colorado

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6 minutes ago, padgett said:

" limited knowledge of metallurgy," and the Titanic was recent news.

 

Yup, according to one of my engineering class professors years ago, the problem with the Titanic, other than hitting a block of ice, was that the rivets were made of basically "slag" off the top of the heat.

Her life cycle would not have been very long under the best of conditions.

 

Boy, now we're really off topic.

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7 minutes ago, FLYER15015 said:

 

Yup, according to one of my engineering class professors years ago, the problem with the Titanic, other than hitting a block of ice, was that the rivets were made of basically "slag" off the top of the heat.

Her life cycle would not have been very long under the best of conditions.

 

Boy, now we're really off topic.

 

 

Not too far off topic, Astor went down with the ship, along with his new Renault car.....and, his hotel in NYC held the Auto Salon for decades.......so, we are in the neighborhood. 

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My point was why some cars of the 15-17 era may have been built stronger than needful, the Titanic was recent news and we were not yet concerned with War I.

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16 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

 

Could be, but i would suspect a limited knowledge of metallurgy, and heat treatment processes back then.

My Jayco class super "C" on a Chevy C5500  chassis has only one spring leaf, with a "helper".

 

Ya'll know we've been on and off topic for 4 full pages since John started this thread back on September 7th.

I wonder if he ever found a car to his liking to jump in with ?

 

Mike in Colorado

Hey Mike and everyone..........no worries about the different comments/input about my post.  They are all educational.  Many of them have caused me to look at some smaller production Independents that I might not have looked at.  I have not bought anything, somewhat because it isn't a "necessity" and the uncertainty of the economic future and my responsibilities to my family make me want to "keep my powder dry" just in case (I am pathologically conservative with money, got it from my dad, who could squeeze a nickel).  

 

This thread has supported my instincts/impulse that I want something earlier than later, even if there are some compromises to be made with sustained touring speeds in the 50-60 MPH range.  It comes down to my eye, beauty is difficult to define.  I feel like something earlier in the 30's, in a closed car will have me thrilled with what a beautiful piece of machinery has come into my care, and maybe for a second prewar car, I would gravitate towards the later 30's (Packard 8 or super 8, or series 62/75 Cadillac).  

 

There is a car I'm interested in, but it has been driven very little in the last ten years and I don't think I could live with the paint.  It would need to be bought at a price point that would reflect that.  

 

This is an example of the look that causes my pulse to tick up a bit....  Something that I feel would fit into my budget for a first example Classic.  From Gilmore.......

 

1586227639_1931Packard833ClubSedanCCCAMuseum.thumb.jpg.fe965527f7384d28542a426bc2fed6bd.jpg

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59 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

 

There is a car I'm interested in, but it has been driven very little in the last ten years and I don't think I could live with the paint. 

 

1586227639_1931Packard833ClubSedanCCCAMuseum.thumb.jpg.fe965527f7384d28542a426bc2fed6bd.jpg

 

I do a lot of paint tweaking and figuring out what works on cars so I do not have to entirely repaint.  When you posted a photo of the Above Packard, it struck me about another that belonged to two friends over time (ed Cull who restored cars for Leo Gephart and Ron & Sonja Halbauer) and was mostly an original car excepting the lighter grey was added to the belt molding.  My point is that you would be surprised what careful color choices and .... do for a car.

56337_1.jpg.1d9c1249b5dd739a0b80d8063f8c1360.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Hi John,

By your last post, seems like you are homing in on the "early 30's.

The 20's vs the 30's is a real styling / engineering change, and the late 30's early 40's upgrades are just as dramatic.

I looked long and hard to find my '40 Buick LTD, and I passed up a couple as too much work for me to restore, been hot rodded , or price too high.

I literally stumbled over the '31 Chrysler imperial, while looking for a "dual cowl" something. Glad I got a sedan..............

 

However you find yours, when you do, you will know instantly that this is the one you want.

You'll get a lump in your throat, or a knot in your gut and know right off that this is the girl for me. 

Work required is something I can do, and the price is close to my budget, and it all just kind of falls into place.

 

Mike in Colorado

 

PS; If you look at  www.carsonline.com they post what the various cars sold for.

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On 9/13/2020 at 11:55 AM, John_Mereness said:

This "height" will knock you out of a whole bunch of cars - if you want to drive them without being crippled after 20 minutes.  

 

Dad is 6"2 and I am 6'1.  Sedans with adjustable front seats not attached to the center door posts work well and certain Packard/s with fixed seats and an adjustable drivers cushion (but you have to try them out).  Opera Coupes and 2 door Broughams work well too.   Interestingly, the 1932 RR PI was FABULOUS seating once you performed your monkey moves to get into it. 

You need to know how big the CEO of the company was that built the car. I am not kidding. Henry Ford was 5'8" 135lbs and hated fat people, and his cars were built accordingly. K T Keller of Plymouth, later Chrysler,  was a big man and insisted that he be able to drive and ride in all his cars in comfort, even the small Plymouth. So if you are on the larger side look for a Plymouth rather than a Ford.

Not sure how this applies to other makes, I suppose for an expensive custom made car you would need to know how big the original owner was.

I heard of one woman who had a limousine built with room for only one person, because she got tired of friends asking for a ride home from the opera or from a party.

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Rusty is really right on this one.

I'm 5'11" and my son is 6' 4" and we both fit very comfortably  in the front seat of the '31 Imperial with the front seat screwed all the way back.

When I drive though, I use a cushion behind my back, so I can hit the starter pedal.

The ladies in the back have acres of room.

 

Mike in Colorado

1931_chrysler_imperial_4_door_sedan_limousine_6a43cde855.jpg

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Mike....that’s a very unusual set up, a car with jump seats 99 percent of the time has a fixed seat back for the front passengers. Usually they used it as a major body brace. Nice car.....three thumbs up. 👍👍👍

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Thanks Ed.

She's body #69, so I suspect quite early in the run of '31 CG's.

And yes, there is a center screw arrangement under the front seat that moves the whole unit back and forth about 6".

Jump seats act as a stop.

In the picture she's all the way back.

 

John would have plenty of leg room in one of these..............

 

Mike in Colorado

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The tightest and most narrow seating position in my prewar ownership was the 1928 Pierce-Arrow 81, had to "help" my legs in past the cowl and I'm 5'-10". the Cadillac and Packard were more roomy with adjustable cushions. Surprisingly my current bare-bones 34 Chevy coupe is very comfortable. 

DSCF1436.JPG

DSCF1525.JPG

IMG_0192.JPG

a.jpg

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I think the two greatest driveability improvements that were implemented in the 1930s were independent front suspension (IFS) and taller gearing / overdrive -- but not on everything, of course.  Choices are tradeoffs, of course:  I'm a Pierce guy and Pierce never had anything but a straight front axle, but the 1936-38 30% overdrive was a real game changer.

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I'm beginning to notice, that on the '30's cars, all but the "Pebble /Amelia" cars, that the lower front corner of the drivers door is always a little shabby.

Missing beading and scuffed upholstery and door panels.

It is the tightest point of entry, and I guess we're always dragging our shoes thru this area.

I wonder if they ever made a "guard" as an aftermarket item ?

Also wonder if there is a market today ?

Inventor, please call for my address, so you can send me my commission check .

 

Mike in Colorado

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22 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

 

1931_chrysler_imperial_4_door_sedan_limousine_6a43cde855.jpg

My first thought was, “How’d he ever ‘see’ that in those pictures with all that there is to see???”

Then I noticed that area was kept out of yours....

Just having fun, but no, it’s always interesting to see what other people notice in something I might have looked at a thousand times.

That said, I hate to break it to you, but I’m afraid the invention or solution you’re looking for is kinda going to be like the answer I got after scoping out the laundry detergent aisle for years for some new product that was going to keep my work shirts looking as good as the rest of my coworkers — “don’t be such a slob you *****”.

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23 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

Rusty is really right on this one.

I'm 5'11" and my son is 6' 4" and we both fit very comfortably  in the front seat of the '31 Imperial with the front seat screwed all the way back.

When I drive though, I use a cushion behind my back, so I can hit the starter pedal.

The ladies in the back have acres of room.

 

Mike in Colorado

I got this from Tom McCahill. He mentioned it in a road test of the Porsche 356 which included a picture of his bald dome sticking up out of the sunroof. He observed that the top brass at Porsche could all run under the kitchen table without ducking.

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My experience with German cars (still have a pair of SLKs) is that they are all designed for the height impaired. I used to be 5' 10" and have the seat all the way back and raked. Had to take a sawzall to the Crossfire (made in Germany) to get the seat back far enough.

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I have that problem on my '29 Cadillac where clearance is pretty tight and have thought about making some kind of corner protector, just a triangle of leather that I could secure to the door frame with small tacks or something. It would be pretty easy, I just never think of doing it until I've just dragged my foot across it and pulled the door panel corner loose from its stud.

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On 9/30/2020 at 8:43 PM, edinmass said:

Mike....that’s a very unusual set up, a car with jump seats 99 percent of the time has a fixed seat back for the front passengers. Usually they used it as a major body brace. Nice car.....three thumbs up. 👍👍👍

Agreed, most 7 passenger cars and even an incredible number of 5 passenger cars have the seat fixed to the center door posts.

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For 6" tall and over - RRPI - Springfield Dover Sedan - No adjustment and probably the most comfortable seating of any 1930's car I ever sat in and comes in probably second to a Duesenberg as to space and comfort of driving position, but still only a few inches to get your feet in and had to be a monkey to get seated into it. The 1934 Cadillac V-16 Convertible Sedan came in probably a close third. And, the 1935 Packard Twelve Convertible Sedan was also in the range. 

049.jpg

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Agreed, most 7 passenger cars and even an incredible number of 5 passenger cars have the seat fixed to the center door posts.

 

Just another reason for John to consider a Chrysler Imperial. Advanced engineering, with lots of room !

 

BenP, yup I've got to admit, my beading on the "A" pillar is frayed too. The picture was just taken that way. No harm intended.

 

John's picture above reminds me of my '53 MGTD with the 'suicide" door.

My solution was to hack saw the top and bottom of the steering wheel off and it wound up like a "butterfly".

It also sat loose on the shaft. We had a big 8 penny nail in the shaft hole and I could pull the wheel off while driving and pretend to  hand it to the guy in the next lane.

Steered quite well with the nail.................for awhile, till we got to a corner.

Ah, those good old days...........

YOUNG AND DUMB!!!

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53 minutes ago, FLYER15015 said:

 

Just another reason for John to consider a Chrysler Imperial. Advanced engineering, with lots of room !

I suggested one earlier via the 31 Club Sedan that RM recently sold - that said though, I am not sure the Chrysler Club is focused enough so perhaps a good first car and perhaps not so good- just depends and have not done that homework.  When someone wants to have a car and an active club combined, I generally would steer them to Auburn Cord Duesenbeg Club, Packard Club, Pierce Arrow Club, Franklin Club, and ... - interestingly, all marques no longer manufactured, so the club is a bit more focused. 

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Back when the world and I were young had a '55 RHD MGA (with crank). Carried an extra steering wheel for the passenger to wave around.

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2 hours ago, padgett said:

Back when the world and I were young had a '55 RHD MGA (with crank). Carried an extra steering wheel for the passenger to wave around.

You should have hooked it to a shaft on the dash, so they could pretend.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "counter steer".

 

Mike in Colorado

 

PS; John, I was contacted via PM by a fellow with the forum handle of "31 Chrysler" and he has a cream and brown CG roadster for sale. He did not quote a price, but I got the impression he was serious.

        There are a couple of two tone green '31 "dual cowls" out there, but they are out of my price range.

Edited by FLYER15015 (see edit history)
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I agree with Matt, but for 235K I want the engine detailed, the right gazelle on the cap, and the car ready for Pebble.

Especially when there is a nice two tone blue "dual cowl" in Hemmings for only 127K.

 

Mike in Colorado

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6 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

I agree with Matt, but for 235K I want the engine detailed, the right gazelle on the cap, and the car ready for Pebble.

Especially when there is a nice two tone blue "dual cowl" in Hemmings for only 127K.

 

Mike in Colorado


the blue car is not real.

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It doesn't look as good in person.  Sold for 55k last year at Hershey.    Joe Morgan's car is real.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf19/hershey/lots/r0148-1931-chrysler-cg-imperial-dual-cowl-phaeton-in-the-style-of-lebaron/797013

 

Surviving 1931 Imperial dual-cowl phaetons are scarcer than their 1932 or 1933 counterparts, with only approximately 10 examples known to exist today. The example offered here is considerably more unusual, as it is a right-hand-drive example built for the export market, where it was delivered to South Africa. Rebodied with its current phaeton coachwork many years ago while in South Africa, the car has been extensively driven and is a proven tour performer. The consignor, Mark Thomas, notes with pride that the car completed the entire “Re-Discover America” CARavan tour with the CCCA in 2013. This tour saw a grueling trip across the continental United States from Times Square, New York, to the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, California. Thomas proudly exclaims that it was one of the few vehicles to never need the trouble truck or spend any time on the trailer during the more than 3,000 miles of driving. Though, notably, the side curtains did come in handy driving through Yellowstone Park.

 

https://rmsothebys-cache.azureedge.net/5/c/1/8/0/d/5c180dcc91cc5176189724102709a6ac7f12126c.jpg

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