positive ground

[52 WAYFARER]

new to this , I have a 1952 dodge wayfarer can anyone tell me if this car should have a positive or neg ground,

having trouble with stop lights and turn signal lights. thank you

[The 55er]

Should be positive ground.

[TerryB]

For those lights, the ground polarity is not critical.  Clean and secure power and ground connections are needed regardless of which battery post is grounded.  Check the bulbs and sockets for rust and corrosion.

[George Cole]

Check the grounds.  Probably corroded.

[keiser31]

6 volt, positive ground.

[52 WAYFARER]

1 hour ago, 52 WAYFARER said:

new to this , I have a 1952 dodge wayfarer can anyone tell me if this car should have a positive or neg ground,

having trouble with stop lights and turn signal lights. thank you

so i should not have a problem if I switch the cables around the neg cable runs to the engine block

[52 WAYFARER]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

For those lights, the ground polarity is not critical.  Clean and secure power and ground connections are needed regardless of which battery post is grounded.  Check the bulbs and sockets for rust and corrosion.

will do just wanted to check, my neg cable runs to the engine block

[Frank DuVal]

If the car is still 6 volt, then positive ground.      Is it? 

 

Lights , even turn signals with flasher, do not care about polarity of the battery. But,  other things do! Do NOT reverse leads to the battery just to troubleshoot lights.😉

[keiser31]

If you are new to Dodges, you will also need to know that the left side (driver's side) lug nuts on the wheels are left-handed.

Edited September 6, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[C Carl]

4 hours ago, 52 WAYFARER said:

will do just wanted to check, my neg cable runs to the engine block

 

To be clear, NO, the engine block, as is the frame, body, etc. is the ground side of the circuit. All grounds electrically  connected, all grounds positive. The POSITIVE cable should run to the engine block.

 

Welcome to this friendly forum ! I hope you stay with us so we can all get to know each other and our cars better. The most interesting cars I have are original unrestored 1924 and 1927 Cadillacs.    -   Carl 

[52 WAYFARER]

thank you for the information ,will change cables today then will try and fix lights, just wanted to make sure not to catch it on fire.

[Frank DuVal]

Most important piece of information is missing from this discussion. 

 

How was the battery hooked up when you first looked under the hood? And, what was working and not working at that time?

 

I have seen batteries hooked up backwards, and the only outward problem was no charging. So just because the engine runs, does not mean the battery is hooked up correctly.

 

Is the battery still a 6 volt (three cells/three water caps)?

[vermontboy]

Would not hurt to polarize the generator once you have the battery hooked up properly - only takes a minute but right nowI  can't remember the way to do it (it's been 20 or 30 years).

[GARY F]

Do you have the big 2aut cables?

[52 WAYFARER]

thank you all very helpful, think I have a bigger problem l looked under dash have old wires cut and hanging loose still hooked to something .

the volt meter will discharge when the engine rpm is  increased,  is there a fuse block on this car? I need to find a wiring diagram.

[maok]

If your ammeter (not volt) is showing a discharge when you increase rpm  then the previous owner did not reverse the ammeter cables around. It also suggests that the generator is functioning.

[vermontboy]

"wires cut and hanging loose"

 

That was pretty much SOP back in the day. No one ever bothered to strip the old wires out ...... 99 per cent of the time you will find them attached to nothing..

[rocketraider]

One unasked and unanswered question here. Has any previous owner "upgraded" this car to 12v electrics? And with cut and dangling wires behind the dash and negative grounding, sounds like someone has.

 

My advice? Get an accurate wiring diagram and, if it's available, a NEW REPRODUCTION wiring harness. It may save the car and garage from burning.

 

I like doing wiring repair, but I hate correcting somebody else's cobbled-up and half-assed mess.

[padgett]

Car does not need to be very old to have loose and dangling wires. Trunk shown, cockpit and hood are same just different colors.

 

May get it all straightened out...this year.

 

[Frank DuVal]

10 hours ago, rocketraider said:

One unasked and unanswered question here. Has any previous owner "upgraded" this car to 12v electrics?

 

I asked it!

 

On 9/5/2020 at 10:22 PM, Frank DuVal said:

If the car is still 6 volt, then positive ground.      Is it? 

 

It is still unanswered.

 

On 9/6/2020 at 11:47 AM, Frank DuVal said:

Is the battery still a 6 volt (three cells/three water caps)?

 

I asked it TWICE!

 

And still unanswered.😳

[Jon37]

You ARE disconnecting the ground strap from the battery whenever you're not working on the car.  Right?

[28 Chrysler]

The previous owner may have tried to get things to just work. If wires are cut and just hanging it may be time to replace the harness. Rhode Island Wiring will have a harness with a wire diagram.

Here is a photo of a "make it work" rats nest, all red wires went above the floor, black wires for under the floor, orange wire nuts and blue crimp connectors.

Edited September 11, 2020 by 28 Chrysler (see edit history)

[JACK M]

At least there are a couple of fuses.

[52 WAYFARER]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:24 PM, Frank DuVal said:

 

I asked it!

 

 

It is still unanswered.

 

 

I asked it TWICE!

 

And still unanswered.😳

 

[52 WAYFARER]

yes still 6 volt have the tail lights working, front parking lights very dim. found a wiring diagram for a rewire in the trunk along with  a bunch of wires and connectors. have not found a fuse box or turn signal flasher. will try again this weekend. Getting to old and fat to get under the dash any more  Thanks for all the advice  will try and respond quicker next time. 

[ojh]

One thing about DC voltage, if you swap the polarity any electric motors will spin backwards, like the starter motor.  I'm puzzled because it sounded like you've swapped polarity and have the motor running, I wonder of the starter has been rewound for negative ground?  Have a look at the markings on it, it might say it is a 12vdc starter.  You'll have to do something with the heater blower motor too.

[JACK M]

4 hours ago, ojh said:

any electric motors will spin backwards, like the starter motor.

 

This isn't true.

[padgett]

The proper answer is "that isn't always true. OTOH small battery motors will respond to polarity and while most starter motors won't that is not all, have seen others that do. It's the Bendix that won't work properly. Generalities often aren't.

[Jon37]

Wayfarer, I'm not sure there IS a fuse block on cars as early as yours.  Generally, fuse holders were wired into the individual circuits feeding radio, heater, etc.  Some manufacturers put circuit breakers or glass fuses on the switch itself (Hudson did this on their headlight switch, for example, in the 30's, 40's and early 50's).

 

As to turn signal flashers, try looking up under the dashboard.  To avoid contortions, use a small mirror and flashlight so you can sit in the front seat and see the reflected underside of the dash.

[Frank DuVal]

13 hours ago, ojh said:

One thing about DC voltage, if you swap the polarity any electric motors will spin backwards, like the starter motor.  I'm puzzled because it sounded like you've swapped polarity and have the motor running,

 

A common misconception! Caused by sometimes this statement is right. BUT, only in one style of DC motor.

 

The only way to reverse a motor (AC-DC-Whatever electric) is to change the relative magnetic field between the fixed part and the rotating part.

 

For those DC motors with permanent magnets supplying the magnetic field, one just has to reverse the power going in, as that reverses the magnetic field of only one part, thus reversing the motion.

 

For DC motors with electrically  derived magnetic fields (like most every starter motor built until recently when small high torque permanent magnetic starters became popular due to less weight), one would have to open the motor and swap the polarity on either the field or armature windings. Does not matter if shunt wound field or series wound field.

 

Remember, thousands of positive ground 6 volt tractors and cars have been converted to 12 volt negative ground just fine, as far as starter rotation is concerned. Instead of fixing the electrical issue with the vehicle....😳

[52 WAYFARER]

thank you for you help will work on this today so I can hopefully drive it this week .

[52 WAYFARER]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:24 PM, Frank DuVal said:

 

I asked it!

 

 

It is still unanswered.

 

 

I asked it TWICE!

 

And still unanswered.😳

no it is still 6 volt.

[padgett]

Thank you Frank, knew "sometimes" was true but not why.

[Guest]

 Older cars wires and starter don't care if it is neg. or pos., 12 or 6 volt.

 The radio, voltage regulator and generator absolutely do care!

 As a matter of fact they get really mad!   🤬

Edited September 13, 2020 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If you let a positive ground car sit and the battery goes completely dead you can hook up the charger and actually reverse the polarity of the battery. The only indication you messed it up will be the ammeter showing discharge when you rev it up. You can test by putting a graphite pencil tip between the spark plug wire and the plug connector. See if the spark jumps from the engine to the wire.

 

A positive ground car won't catch fire if a bare wire in the harness contacts the body unless you have run grounds. It is a safety feature if your wire insulation is only cloth.

 

It can even protect you from the previous owner.

[padgett]

And the devices will protect the Lucas fuses.

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

A positive ground car won't catch fire if a bare wire in the harness contacts the body unless you have run grounds. It is a safety feature if your wire insulation is only cloth.

 

Please explain. This, as written, makes no sense, since every vehicle I've seen with a battery has one of the battery terminals connected to ground, aka chassis!

 

In fact, the definition of POSITIVE GROUND is the positive terminal of the battery is connected to the chassis, aka ground.

 

Therefore, any ungrounded live wire (the "hot" wire) that touches the chassis will be a short circuit, and without a fuse in line, could start a fire.

 

7 hours ago, padgett said:

And the devices will protect the Lucas fuses.

 

You have said this before. Just what does it mean? Fuses are properly designed into the "hot" wire of a system. Does not matter whether it is a positive or negative ground system, why would it?

 

BTW, in both of the above cases, "hot" wire is defined as the UNGROUNDED wire aka the NOT CHASSIS connected wire. Makes no difference if the positive or negative terminal of the battery is connected to chassis. Yes, this means the "hot" wires are connected to the negative battery terminal on a positive ground vehicle!😉

[Guest]

Misinformation seems to be more prevalent than in the past.  We are becoming more like the WWW where every answer must be investigated and proven.  In the last two weeks I have read at least twelve statements here that were absolutely wrong. NOT a comment that someone makes as a guess but statements of fact which of course they are not.

[keithb7]

I have added fuses where I can, to some electrical circuits in my old Mopar. It is positive ground, 6V. It's starts so well, you'd never know it was 6V. I often ask myself why would anyone care to convert these wonderful cars to 12V? 6V is just dandy for a lower compression, low RPM, long stroke, flathead 6 cylinder car.

 

Getting back to fuses: I added a fuse for the horn, and 1 fuse for each headlight circuit. Both hi and low beam circuits each get their own relays and fuses. My accessory fog lights and cab heater blower motor also have their own fuses. All of these items have high amp draw needs. I have up-sized the wires in all of these circuits, and added fuses give me peace of mind.

 

For the sake of simplicity, I'll use this explanation for easy understanding of the car's DC voltage electrical system:

 

All items that require electricity to work, need to be part of a controlled, looped system. A wire must come from one battery post, the electricity will carry along that wire, protected and controlled, to the object that needs it. For example a headlight. The electricity must travel through the head light, to make it light up brightly. Then the electricity must carry-on, on a controlled path back to the other opposite battery post.  This simple loop is called a circuit. If the loop is somehow broken, the electricity cannot flow through it. If the electricity can escape the controlled path that it is supposed to go, it could take a short-cut, skip the work at the headlight, and run back to the other battery post, without doing what you asked it to do.

 

In a car such as your old Mopar the entire frame and chassis of the car, is connected to the positive post of the battery. The frame and body are all metal. Metal is an extremely good conductor of electricity. Look and you'll see a battery cable connected to the engine block maybe, or a tranny bolt possibly. We call this "Ground". It's not really ground, it's just the part of the circuit that uses the metal body and frame, to be the return path back to the battery. The car frame/body can complete the electricity loop back to the battery.

 

Going back to the example of the headlight; instead of running a return wire from the output side of the headlight bulb filament all the way back to the positive side of the battery post, we can just connect that wire to a metal part fo the body or frame. To review, the electricity flows from the negative battery post via a wire, to the headlight, the light glows bright, then the electricity connects to the metal body/frame. The electricity travels back to the positive battery post via the metal frame. The circuit is completed. The headlight works and you're happy. It's that simple. However they add switches, ammeters, and fuses, circuits are joined and stacked, and lots more.  It can appear confusing. Break it all down, the basic circuits still act like my simple explanation above.

 

When things go awry, it is often when the controlled path for the electricity is compromised. Assume a wire heading from the negative battery post, to a headlight is old and crusty. The wire-covering is broken up in areas, the bare wire strands are exposed. Suppose that the bare wire touches the metal frame or body of the car. The electricity quickly, at the speed of light, jumps from the exposed wire to the metal car frame, travelling back to the battery again via the frame. An awful lot of electricity might escape out that exposed wire strand to the frame. So very fast that it will create immense heat. All that heat can cause the wire covering to ignite into a flame. A fire ensues. This often ends very bad.

 

Another example: Suppose that the wire exiting the headlamp is bolted to the metal body, the ground path. Suppose the bolt that secures the ground wire gets rusty. This rust impedes electricity flow. The amount of electricity returning back to the battery hits a bottle-neck here. It slows down. Your headlamp becomes dim. Not very bright at all and useless in the dark. You'll hear many people here tell you to clean up your grounds.  This is what they mean. Remove all rust and any paint that may be between the ground wire fastener and the frame or body. A nice clean metal to metal contact here would be considered a good ground. Ensure the fasteners anchoring any ground wires are tight. The use of lock washer, nylock or stover nuts is a good practice. Stainless steel is fantastic, as it will not rust.

 

Reviewing your original post above, you are having trouble with your brake light and turn signals. A schematic will help you trace out these wires. Follow them from a battery source to the brake/turn light, then to ground. The electricity supply wires will connect to a switch and or flashers of different types. A digital multi-meter (DMM) is extremely useful here.  You can put one end on a good metal part of the car. Then trace wires to ground. Learn which wires are not supposed to go to ground. Test them with respect to ground. Check for 6V DC at various points and connectors along the circuit. When a lamp is on, hook up your DMM set to DC voltage. Is the 6V moving along as it should past all the various connections and switches? Remember that in a single wire lighting circuit, when a bulb is installed and all wiring is normal, a wire going to a brake/turn lamp bulb is connected to ground all the time. A switch in the circuit stops the electricity flow. When the switch is turned on the electricity flows freely to the bulb and on to ground. Consider pulling the bulb, breaking the electricity connection to ground, then using your DMM test the wire before the bulb. Check your schematic, it probably should not be going to ground. If it does you likely have a problem. The wire exiting the lamp socket should indeed be connected to ground. Check all your grounds, clean them. Pull your bulbs. Are they 6V? Often previous owners install 12V bulbs in a pinch. Look at your bulb contact points, and the contacts in the socket? All clean? good contact? How's the old cloth wiring? Is it protecting the wire core adequately all along its path.

 

I too am confused by the statement made in a earlier post:" A positive ground car won't catch fire if a bare wire in the harness contacts the body unless you have run grounds. It is a safety feature if your wire insulation is only cloth." My explanation above, does not jive with this statement. 

 

Keith

 

[padgett]

In an age of plastic cars and components, it is common for devices (e.g. lights) to have a seperate ground wire. It is usually black. That said there are still many metal grounded pieces (typically the whole drivetrain). So regardless whether positive or negative ground, One side is "hot" and the other is "ground" and they should never come together.

 

ps previous post was a Lucas joke. If you don't understand Lucas jokes you never had a British car.