Electric Corvette

[Robert G. Smits]

Effective September 1, 2020, Gm is transferring all members of the Corvette engineering team to their autonomous vehicles program.  Just a sign of their commitment to a All Electric future.  Can the rumored e-Vette be far off?

[TerryB]

Reading several reports on this, it doesn’t seem like all are moving but a significant group will be moving to the EV projects.  I can see where GM will not need as much support for the latest gen Corvettes for quite some time. 

[Doug Novak]

14 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Reading several reports on this, it doesn’t seem like all are moving but a significant group will be moving to the EV projects.  I can see where GM will not need as much support for the latest gen Corvettes for quite some time. 

2019 Porsche all ready has it developed and ready. It is a speed Demon. It's called the TRYCAN $185,000.

 

[TerryB]

38 minutes ago, Doug Novak said:

2019 Porsche all ready has it developed and ready. It is a speed Demon. It's called the TRYCAN $185,000.

 

If GM can do an EV version of Corvette with the leading $1 removed from the Porsche price they will have another winner.

[Robert G. Smits]

I think they have to go to the e-Corvette to stay competitive.  I suspect less than 5% of Corvette's are used for long range touring and I would be happy with a range of 250-300 miles

[TerryB]

Travel range anxiety is lessening as more charging stations come on line and the time required to charge decreases.  When I was in TV picture tube engineering we assumed cost and development time would make the adaptation of flat screen technology a long process.  We were wrong and our business disappeared.  I can see parallels here where the impossible isn’t anymore and wider acceptance to the technology is gaining. 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, TerryB said:

Travel range anxiety is lessening as more charging stations come on line and the time required to charge decreases.  When I was in TV picture tube engineering we assumed cost and development time would make the adaptation of flat screen technology a long process.  We were wrong and our business disappeared.  I can see parallels here where the impossible isn’t anymore and wider acceptance to the technology is gaining. 

 

90% of all vehicles in 20 years will be electric.  It is an engineering inevitability (not to mention political).    Fortunately for me I'll be enjoying my gas fired toys in the barn (if I can ever build one) as well as a steam car or two.

 

If anyone has ever driven or gotten a ride in a Tesla it is an eye opening experience.   The charging times need to come down,  and ranges gradually extended (although 300 miles is pretty good right now), but they are impressive.

[alsancle]

On a related note,  my 95 year old dad who still can't believe automatic transmissions caught on can't believe in the notion of a self driving car.   I try to explain that 100 eyes and ears with nano second response time beats a guy drinking a beer  and texting or a gal doing makeup and he doesn't get it.

[1912Staver]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

90% of all vehicles in 20 years will be electric.  It is an engineering inevitability (not to mention political).    Fortunately for me I'll be enjoying my gas fired toys in the barn (if I can ever build one) as well as a steam car or two.

 

If anyone has ever driven or gotten a ride in a Tesla it is an eye opening experience.   The charging times need to come down,  and ranges gradually extended (although 300 miles is pretty good right now), but they are impressive.

 

Impressive indeed , but at the same time shockingly expensive. Even more so here in Canada. If personal vehicles continue on this track probably the majority of us will be public transit 

riders 20 years from now.  I get a real laugh when I see new vehicles in the $25,000 - $30,000 class described as " inexpensive ".  That price point will utterly consume the disposable 

income of many households. The days of a new or newer big 3 entry level car within the reach of almost any household are indeed long behind us.

 

Greg

[Guest]

It's all coming true. 😳

 

[auburnseeker]

They really need to work on infrastructure and power production.  CA is having brown outs now.  With more and more stuff being pushed to electric and not much done to supply the increased demand they are going to hit a brick wall. 

[TerryB]

The internal combustion engine will not disappear tomorrow but there will be more EV choices going forward.  I like gasoline and Diesel engines too but like steam powered trains some things are bound to change over time.  An E Corvette could be quite the car for acceleration as most current electric cars now demonstrate.  Electric motors don’t need to overcome the basic power delay curves of gas engines to get to maximum power.

[TerryB]

8 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

They really need to work on infrastructure and power production.  CA is having brown outs now.  With more and more stuff being pushed to electric and not much done to supply the increased demand they are going to hit a brick wall. 

That is indeed true and it’s being addressed with of all things mega battery power packs that will store energy and supply it at high demand times.  The battery power packs have the advantage of rapid construction time compared to more conventional power stations.  Right now Australia has a huge system in use like this and there is another under construction in Monterey CA.  Smaller units have been in use for several years in foreign countries where its been easier to build this type of system to meet the power demand.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

They really need to work on infrastructure and power production.  CA is having brown outs now.  With more and more stuff being pushed to electric and not much done to supply the increased demand they are going to hit a brick wall. 

 

Windmills and solar don't do well on cloudy calm days.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Impressive indeed , but at the same time shockingly expensive. Even more so here in Canada. If personal vehicles continue on this track probably the majority of us will be public transit 

riders 20 years from now.  I get a real laugh when I see new vehicles in the $25,000 - $30,000 class described as " inexpensive ".  That price point will utterly consume the disposable 

income of many households. The days of a new or newer big 3 entry level car within the reach of almost any household are indeed long behind us.

 

Greg

 

Car ownership percentages are going to go down for sure.   Driver-less pods controlled by Uber/Lyft or the like will give you fractional transportation.    Do you know many teenagers?   Many don't seem to care too much about getting a license.   The car culture of American Graffiti is gone sadly.

[TerryB]

Not entirely gone, just shifting focus on years and makes.  My son is helping a friend with this project and he is enjoying the challenge.  The advances in automotive technology have made automobile ownership a lot less demanding from the days when I (we) were young.  The flame is still there, you just need to find something to spark it.

 

[Fossil]

22 minutes ago, TerryB said:

The advances in automotive technology have made automobile ownership a lot less demanding from the days when I (we) were young.

39 lube points on my 1930 DeSoto. Can you imagine the average auto owner today having to deal with something like that. Those stating that the future lies with electric power are probably correct. The problem we have in the upper mid-west is the sub zero temperatures in the winter. Batteries don't do well in extreme cold. 

Still, I think it would be interesting to own an electric car. 

[Mark Gregory]

All these changes in cars are called

 

Disruptive technology is an innovation that significantly alters the way that consumers, industries, or businesses operate. A disruptive technology sweeps away the systems or habits it replaces because it has attributes that are recognizably superior.

[F&J]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

"The car culture of American Graffiti is gone sadly."....

 

Like John Milner, I live it every time I leave my home as it's been my primary car for 2 years.  At first, I was forced to use it as a daily due to lack of funds, but now I pretty sure I'll never have or want a semi modern car. 

 

3 minutes ago, TerryB said:

"The flame is still there, you just need to find something to spark it."

 

I do my part to expose old cars to anyone who shows interest when I am parked, especially children who can't wait to sit in it.....it's almost like they are jumping into a pedal car.  I also pick up every hitchhiker that I see without any reservation.

 

I literally have met thousands of new people with this car, and that would never happen if I drove a Tesla or the proposed E-Corvette. I like meeting new people... even in 2020..😉

 

Yes, it was sleeting earlier and roads salted, but certainly worth the experiences of the Christmas Festival. 

.

 

.

 

[1912Staver]

37 minutes ago, Mark Gregory said:

All these changes in cars are called

 

Disruptive technology is an innovation that significantly alters the way that consumers, industries, or businesses operate. A disruptive technology sweeps away the systems or habits it replaces because it has attributes that are recognizably superior.

 

 

I am a bit puzzled at how electrics are  " recognizably superior ".  Many study's show little if any environmental advantage to electrics if the entire package is examined. Harm of creating and disposing of the battery, and the overall carbon footprint of the root power source.

 They seem to me to be two fold in advantage, and both are rather hollow from my point of view. #1 , they let affluent  soccer moms  have  a clear conscience  regarding their extravagant life style.  # 2 ,They give affluent A type guys a clean conscience " hot performing car ".

Doing their part , and reaping a serious tax payer funded incentive at the same time. If you can come up with the price of admission , why not I guess ?

 

Greg

Edited August 29, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Steve9]

36 minutes ago, F&J said:

 

Like John Milner, I live it every time I leave my home as it's been my primary car for 2 years.  At first, I was forced to use it as a daily due to lack of funds, but now I pretty sure I'll never have or want a semi modern car. 

 

 

I do my part to expose old cars to anyone who shows interest when I am parked, especially children who can't wait to sit in it.....it's almost like they are jumping into a pedal car.  I also pick up every hitchhiker that I see without any reservation.

 

I literally have met thousands of new people with this car, and that would never happen if I drove a Tesla or the proposed E-Corvette. I like meeting new people... even in 2020..😉

 

Yes, it was sleeting earlier and roads salted, but certainly worth the experiences of the Christmas Festival. 

.

 

.

 

You only live once. The older I get the more I realize it’s time to give back. Kinda like Scrooge, eh? Thanks to every one who shares the experience!

[Matt Harwood]

4 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

I am a bit puzzled at how electrics are  " recognizably superior ".  Many study's show little if any environmental advantage to electrics if the entire package is examined. Harm of creating and disposing of the battery, and the overall carbon footprint of the root power source.

 They seem to me to be two fold in advantage, and both are rather hollow from my point of view. #1 , they let affluent  soccer moms  have  a clear conscience  regarding their extravagant life style.  # 2 ,They give affluent A type guys a clean conscience " hot performing car ".

Doing their part , and reaping a serious tax payer funded incentive at the same time. If you can come up with the price of admission , why not I guess ?

 

Greg

 

How about quieter streets? I, for one, am sick of idiots hammering it up my street at 2AM with their clapped-out piece of junk cars with rotten mufflers. I wouldn't mind all the Amazon trucks rumbling out of the distribution center up the street being electric--they don't go anywhere near 300 miles/day and they will charge up at night and will stop bellowing up my street with their cooling fans roaring and diesel engines belching.

 

The coronavirus has already demonstrated that fewer cars on the road has dramatically increased air quality in big cities. I'd call that a plus. Turning it into a long-term solution can only be a good thing.

 

How about less motor oil to recycle/dispose of? In fact, electric cars require far less maintenance which translates into fewer old parts dumped in landfills and greater savings for owners. And before you mention battery replacement being a crippling cost, battery replacement costs about the same as rebuilding a transmission in a gasoline car. It appears to be required about as often as you need a new internal combustion engine in your daily driver.

 

While electric cars do relocate the source of power generation from under the hood to a power plant somewhere else, it's not a 1:1 conversion. Electric cars are significantly more efficient than internal combustion engines and even taking into account the power being generated to feed them, there's a net reduction in pollution because of it. The average electric car gets the equivalent of about 88 MPG, which is about three times better than the average gasoline car. That's considerably less emissions any way you slice it.

 

It's also worth noting that all electricity isn't generated by pollution-creating methods, with hydro-electric supplying a large portion of the power for major cities like Toronto, Boulder, Denver, Las Vegas, Buffalo, and other big metropolitan areas. Solar is not amazing, but it isn't 0%, nor is wind power, and they, too, will improve over time. Natural gas burns significantly cleaner than gasoline or coal, which is why most fossil-fuel-burning plants have converted to natural gas. Together those represent a fairly significant net reduction in pollution compared to internal combustion engines. Yes, a rapid shift to electric cars will stress existing infrastructure, but a rapid shift from horses to automobiles probably stressed the "white gas" suppliers at the local general store until infrastructure (gas stations) developed to support it. The same will happen with the electrical grid. Americans are skittish about nuclear power, but pebble bed reactors can supply clean, safe power if we can get past the NIMBY factor. Just because there isn't a 100% solution right now that costs nothing doesn't mean pursuing the technology is folly. Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.

 

Batteries will improve and most electric car batteries are recycled, not tossed in the dump so that's not going to remain an effective argument (and I get the distinct impression that most people just throw it out there because they think it works as a "gotcha" against electric car supporters, not because they're genuinely concerned about the environment).

 

I just don't understand this forum's hatred of electric cars. They're not going to replace internal combustion--not in any of our lifetimes--but the addition of electric cars to the roads can have benefits for us petrolheads, including greater gasoline supplies that will last longer and cost less. Nobody's going to force you into an electric car, nobody's going to outlaw internal combustion, so stop believing the fear-mongering because that path just isn't feasible from either a political or a logistical standpoint. As enthusiasts, we should be embracing electric cars simply because they'll make everyone's life better while gasoline will continue to exist for those who need/want it. It's disingenuous to hate electric cars because they don't solve ALL the problems. They obviously don't. But they solve quite a few and there's no reason not to embrace the technology--it's coming regardless of whether you like it.

 

Remember when everyone flipped their lids about the expected death of performance when EFI arrived in, say, 1982? This will ultimately make things better for most people and won't really hurt the the rest.

 

And honestly, I'm afraid the day will come when I'll have to look at my kids when I'm an old man and apologize for screwing up the world for them. We can't keep taking and taking and taking and expecting everything to turn out OK. Electric cars can help--not a solution, but they can help, and don't have much of a downside.

Plus an electric Corvette will offer 100% torque at 0 RPM and no shifts. No, I have a hunch that electric cars will not be the death of performance or automotive fun in any sense of the word...

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

I am a bit puzzled at how electrics are  " recognizably superior ".  Many study's show little if any environmental advantage to electrics if the entire package is examined. Harm of creating and disposing of the battery, and the overall carbon footprint of the root power source.

 They seem to me to be two fold in advantage, and both are rather hollow from my point of view. #1 , they let affluent  soccer moms  have  a clear conscience  regarding their extravagant life style.  # 2 ,They give affluent A type guys a clean conscience " hot performing car ".

Doing their part , and reaping a serious tax payer funded incentive at the same time. If you can come up with the price of admission , why not I guess ?

 

Greg

 

Greg,  everything you say is true.   Right now the biggest advantage in the "full life cycle" is probably just the virtue signalling.  But long term,  disconnecting what is powering the car from the power source is a tremendous advantage.    Electricity is simply a conduit for energy,  while gasoline is stored energy.    So,  the energy source for the electricity can be anything we come up with or multiple things.    Green nazi's will tell you solar and wind, but that won't cut it now nor maybe at any time.   But at least it gives you the option of some other energy source besides oil.    You could still burn the oil to power electric generation plants if you had to.  

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

The only aspect that really raises my blood pressure is the tax payer supported rebates. In Canada at least they are significant. A further case of average people with little enough disposable income already giving a big 

leg up to a ; in many cases, rather high end product and rather high end buyers. If a Tesla or E Corvette  warms your heart by all means splurge, but on your own dime if you please. 

 Yes , in areas where hydro power is the main source of power they do make a measure of sense. But a good many regions are still using thermal power plants. 

The overall efficiency may not be quite as good as you suspect . Lots of heating losses in transmission lines and transformers.

I am pretty middle / middle class since retirement. I still view a $10,000 daily driver outlay as substantial. I would not possibly be able to be involved with old cars if I bought a  " cheap " $30,000 electric. It would suck up all my 

extra $. Since retirement I drive far less than I used to , I would be driving the electric wonder a decade or more past my death in order to make up the extra cost of the car on fuel savings.

I don't hate electrics . But unless the price comes dramatically down  there most likely won't be one in my future.

 

Greg

 

[Robert G. Smits]

I have driven a couple of Tesla's and can't wait for the e-Corvette.  I am 80 now and my only concern is will I still have a drivers license???  Very interesting and thought provoking discussions. When you factor in the depreciation of the dollar over the next 18 months I wouldn't be surprised at an entry price above $150K in 3-4 years

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Robert G. Smits
correction (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Anyone ever thought about what the exhaust pipe on electric cars look like?

 

[maok]

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Anyone ever thought about what the exhaust pipe on electric cars look like?

 

 

 

Not for long. And or like these,

 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, maok said:

 

 

Not for long. And or like these,

 

 

 

The issue with generators like Wind and Solar is that if you do the math given current technology and assumed improvements you need to cover the entire US with both in order to replace the existing generation infrastructure.   I understand,  I'm being a little hyperbolic,  but only a little.   My issue with many green lunatics is that their backgrounds tend to be art history or examining your belly button studies so they have no concept of simple engineering calculations.

 

And before anybody yells at me,  my previous posts were positive with regard to the future of electric cars,    we just need to be realistic about power generation.    Or, see current situation in California when it is cloudy and dark out.

 

 

 

[8E45E]

11 hours ago, Robert G. Smits said:

I am 80 now and my only concern is will I still have a drivers license??? 

Self-driving cars just MIGHT solve that problem!!!  

 

Craig

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

How about less motor oil to recycle/dispose of? In fact, electric cars require far less maintenance which translates into fewer old parts dumped in landfills and greater savings for owners. And before you mention battery replacement being a crippling cost, battery replacement costs about the same as rebuilding a transmission in a gasoline car. It appears to be required about as often as you need a new internal combustion engine in your daily driver.

 

While electric cars do relocate the source of power generation from under the hood to a power plant somewhere else, it's not a 1:1 conversion. Electric cars are significantly more efficient than internal combustion engines and even taking into account the power being generated to feed them, there's a net reduction in pollution because of it. The average electric car gets the equivalent of about 88 MPG, which is about three times better than the average gasoline car. That's considerably less emissions any way you slice it.

 

I just don't understand this forum's hatred of electric cars. They're not going to replace internal combustion--not in any of our lifetimes--but the addition of electric cars to the roads can have benefits for us petrolheads, including greater gasoline supplies that will last longer and cost less. Nobody's going to force you into an electric car, nobody's going to outlaw internal combustion, so stop believing the fear-mongering because that path just isn't feasible from either a political or a logistical standpoint. As enthusiasts, we should be embracing electric cars simply because they'll make everyone's life better while gasoline will continue to exist for those who need/want it. It's disingenuous to hate electric cars because they don't solve ALL the problems. They obviously don't. But they solve quite a few and there's no reason not to embrace the technology--it's coming regardless of whether you like it.

I totally miss the old trolley buses.  They were quiet, pollution-free, and had infinitely better acceleration than their diesel bretheren.  Even fully loaded with rush hour passengers standing in the aisle, they effortlessly climbed hills.  (The San Fran cable cars come to mind.)   The only complaint were the 'visual pollution' of the overhead wires, but should be a non-issue today as no one looks up anymore; they are all too busy looking down at their iphones.

 

Craig

[auburnseeker]

As I mentioned they would have an easier push if they were really  putting the infrastructure first.  You still go back to point to where what happens when there is a natural disaster and power is lost?  Yes you can argue that you can't get gas,  but then a generator , fairly small one at that,  will gas up hundreds of cars, while pumping gas out for itself,  but that one generator won't charge hundreds in the same length of time.  If everyone plugs in before a Hurricane so they are ready,  I imagine that will cause a huge outage and have a negative effect on storm preparedness. 

Removable battery units may help,  but then we have a ton more toxic waste and a huge extra expense.  Again many more rural areas usually lose power for a week or more.  Many disasters happen fast so there is no chance to power up first and people's nature seems to be to procrastinate so many won't have a fully charged vehicle ready at any moment until they are told they need to charge it as power may go out.  They were without power for Months back in the 90's in upstate NY due to a huge ice storm that destroyed even those huge steel transmission towers.   If all cable was under ground it would help aleiviate some of the problems,  but that's a long ways off in some areas and near impossible in the mountains where everything is rock. 

[auburnseeker]

1 minute ago, 8E45E said:

I totally miss the old trolley buses.  They were quiet, pollution-free, and had infinitely better acceleration than their diesel bretheren.  Even fully loaded with rush hour passengers standing in the aisle, they effortlessly climbed hills.  (The San Fran cable cars come to mind.)   The only complaint were the 'visual pollution' of the overhead wires, but should be a non-issue today as no one looks up anymore; they are all too busy looking down at their iphones.

 

Craig

Well you really don't want to look down at the ground around San Francisco anymore either so you might be better looking at the screen. 

[TerryB]

1903: “The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty — a fad.” — President of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company.

 

Hmm...not all predictions about the future are accurate.

[auburnseeker]

When they figure out how to recharge one in the time it takes to fuel a car any place in the country like you can with an automobile from a portable refueling device like a gas can is to the automobile, then we will be at the point they were in 1903.  Even then gas could easily be transported even by horse and wagon to refuel the car anywhere in the country you could drive a car. 

If you say well we can put a generator anywhere to charge it,  then it looses it's benefit of being electric because I'm sure the emissions on the generator will be worse than the a gasoline car and last time I checked generators scost alot more and haev a larger carbon footprintn than the plastic or better yet metal can that you transport the gas in. 

 

It's the same argument we have each time.  Yees there are places where electric may be beneficial and many applications where it will be more of a burden than a bonus.

 

I have a better idea.  Find a way to melt snow without road salt or calcium that doesn't rust cars.  That will have a larger impact as many cars in the rust belt are retired because of rust rather than wear.

 

[ply33]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

The issue with generators like Wind and Solar is that if you do the math given current technology and assumed improvements you need to cover the entire US with both in order to replace the existing generation infrastructure.   I understand,  I'm being a little hyperbolic,  but only a little.   My issue with many green lunatics is that their backgrounds tend to be art history or examining your belly button studies so they have no concept of simple engineering calculations.

 

Got a link showing those calculations?

[Fossil]

15 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I just don't understand this forum's hatred of electric cars.

     Matt I don't believe it's so much hatred and as much as the fear of the unknown. When electricity first became available many people were very hesitant to bring something so dangerous into their homes. Humans get stuck in their ways. I wonder how many people would want to go without it today. I know this happened with some of my own family members and yet when they did finally decide to have it installed they loved it. 

   I think your going to see the same thing with electric vehicles. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Fossil (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I worked my entire life in the technology side of things.  My run was from 1972 until 2011.  We were always looking to adapt technology to our tasks, everything from using it to test the finished products to using it to improve quality and manufacturability.  Many times it was successful and there are times it wasn’t, it’s all part of the process.  If you look closely you will see we are having this discussion via devices that did not exist all that long ago using a network of connections that also did not exist.  When first proposed, the idea of a home computer was considered something people would never want or use.  And a connection network to tie it all together, silly!

 

The smartphone of today is an excellent example of photo technology, wireless technology and computer technology all working together to meet a need we didn’t know we had until it was there.  One thing is for sure, for each insurmountable problem that is identified there will be people to see how to make it happen.  Remember, the experts of the day said man would never be able to fly like the birds.  

[1912Staver]

The other thing , not just the fear of something new, is the electronic complexity of electric cars.  Many of us on the forum are quite hands on. And with time some of us can even grapple with basic repairs on reasonably modern cars.

But from what I have seen on things like Tesla's  they are truly loaded with electronics. 

All new vehicles have a ton of " mystery box " components. But I get the impression things like Tesla's, E Mustangs, and most likely E Corvettes take things to a new level.

New car buyers seem to have accepted that they will be forever tied to the dealer for repair and servicing.  I still search out very simple cars that I can maintain and repair myself. I can't see an electric ever fitting that requirement.

Keeping things simple and affordable is why I have a very simple laptop and no cell of any kind. If worst comes to worst it is very cheap to replace. My wife and son have cells, apart from the sky high plan rates in Canada there is the added  problem of

broken screens , short battery life and loosing the blasted things.  Over the last 5 years they have spent way , way more on their phones than I have spent on my laptop and very basic WI Fi.

Greg

Edited August 30, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

It's interesting on this thread that what was once accepted as fact is challenged and proven wrong is touted by some that on other threads ridiculed when I said what is given to us as fact should be challenged and not abruptly stifled instead. 

[TerryB]

I think this thread is doing an excellent job of pro and con, the con needs to be heard as well and represents the challenges to overcome for success.  The EV is a very basic car, batteries and an electric motor.  It was tried in the early 20th century but the technology to support it was not there.  Today we are much farther along than any time in history.  The electronic controls of the EV are what allow it to function more effectively than earlier designs and get more battery range.  It will be Greek to many of us but not to the many who study it more than we do at this point in our life.