Thoughs on manuals and documentation

[padgett]

The recent White thread just shows you that for any car (and particularly for something "different") you need to collect as much documentation as possible. Problem is to understand "A" which has a fault you need to understand B & C and C required understanding of D which was not from the manufacturer but a supplier.

 

Take a GM car of the 60s (my era) you need the service manual and the parts book for the car. Then you need the Fisher body manual, the Delco Radio manual & Delco Moraine for brakes. Auto transmission will probably need a Hydramatic Div manual, unless a Powerglide, Turboglide, Jetaway, or Dynaflow. Manual trans is either: Saginaw, Muncie, or Ford.. And don't forget Saginaw Steering Gear, Harrison radiators, And either Rochester or Carter carbs (depending). If FI, Detroit Diesel Indy made the injectors (and a friend used to send me rejects for too high a flow - called them YYs, needed for a not-so-stock FI).

 

Manuals just for my Goat are taller than I am. "Stock" varies depending on build date & assembly plant as well as make model and year. (what day did the GTO speedo change from 140 mph to 120 mph ? Why there were no R59 batteries on the assembly line. Why a 67 GTO did not come with a PF-24 oil filter, what year radios have CD markings and when did Delco Radio change the font ?). You also will need a rack just for TSBs (technical service bulletins) and an assembly manual helps.

 

Once helped a major club set up a "Platinum" points judged class. Problem was it took 4-6 hours to properly judge a car. Remember one owner getting really mad because he put the correct clock in the wrong hole in the dash.

 

The "bias vs radial" war is also amusing when the correct tire was a bias-belted and when were the FMVSS markings required ? Point is that few know what a real 100 point car is (once pointed out to an owner that the Delco-Packard wires were correct but should have been embossed and not silkscreened. Also the next Air Cleaner decal that has the correct font will be the first seen. Google does not know everything (and why I use canary traps).

 

Have published rants like this before. Many readers will think I am advocating stricter judging rules when am really trying to point out the absurdity of achieving a "100 point car". I just enjoy mine and my current challenge has many many yellow wires.

 

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chancet.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I was thrilled to pay $250 for a set of R107 chassis MB (SL series 72 - 89) manuals last winter.  They are not easy to find, and while the only use so far has been assisting a pal in FL with an issue with his, I know I have them...

[rocketraider]

The more of this stuff you have, the better you understand your vehicle.

 

I've settled a few Oldsmobile judging disputes with my literature, esp when there were factory "fixes" involved. Also when a judge didn't know as much about the cars he was scoring as he thought. 2016 Olds Nats, the only 1964 Starfire on the field (and one of the three nationwide I know of) that had its correct chambered pipes/resonator exhaust got docked significantly for "non-factory exhaust". The judge who docked it will judge nothing but Starfires, and I was busy judging another class. CSM, 1964 Facts and Features manual, and parts book settled the question, albeit too late for the car to win its best of class.

 

So yeah, if your goal is total accuracy, you need the stuff.

[8E45E]

21 hours ago, padgett said:

"Stock" varies depending on build date & assembly plant as well as make model and year. (what day did the GTO speedo change from 140 mph to 120 mph ? Why there were no R59 batteries on the assembly line. Why a 67 GTO did not come with a PF-24 oil filter, what year radios have CD markings and when did Delco Radio change the font ?). You also will need a rack just for TSBs (technical service bulletins) and an assembly manual helps.

Agreed the monthly and random 'Service Bulletins' or 'Sales Announcements' that describe running changes can sometimes be rarer than the manuals themselves.

[hidden_hunter]

I try and get a copy of whatever I can for the cad, they had 6 editions of the manual for the type 61 and the best information is actually in the the v63 manual

[padgett]

My favorite was the 1973 Pontiac-EPA debacle. (excerpt)

 

 

[8E45E]

Wasn't mid-1973 the same year they also got rid of the seat belt interlock?

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Some times if you have collected for some years ( decades etc ) you have to know where to look or that something does indeed exist for a car that were not have "factory" publications. This is especially true for pre WWII era cars with custom coachwork. Weymann the fabric (and sometimes metal ) body designer and builder had issued their own folders showing body construction details, as did Cantrell the station wagon body manufacturer. Within the past year I scanned and sent to the current owners of the sole remaining Bour Davis car ( built in Louisiana) a copy of the instruction book and sales leaflet I had for that car in my collection. Marty Roth told me the car existed and where and made the contact so this could happen upon learning I had the material.  I am not a public library and can not do this often but do try to help if I can once and a while, especially if it has to do with coach work not built by the car manufacturer.

I was helped out many decades ago when I bought my 1931 Franklin that had a Derham custom body on it. The window crank and inside door handles were cast in white metal - great in 1931 but after 40+ years the composition of the white metal deteriorated and the window crank on the drivers door was broken.  The regular interior door hardware for Franklin of the same year and model did not match, Derham used something else!

I was at my friend Joe Star's  house who owned a Springfield , Mass. built R-R Phantom II town car. He saw the broken handle and went in and got a pick and small hammer and removed the remains of the broken handle that had been there before i bought my car. He then went over to his Phantom II and unscrewed the window crank from his door and came back and screwed it into the door on my car and rolled down the window! Looked at me and said " So is that what you want to do?"  Apparently Derham and Brewster bodies used the same hardware supplier in NY for their cars - McFarland and Co.

SO I then set about looking for Brewster interior hardware /handles for my Derham. I called Dave Domidion and he asked me "what Brewster RR Phantom I do you own - I know of everyone in existence "- I told Dave that I had  a Derham bodied Franklin and why I needed the handles. He roared with laughter said "No Sxxt" ! He sold me the interior handles I needed that are still in use on the car today.

SO , yes the paperwork is around, as is the information , you just have to be fortunate enough to know where to look and who to ask that will be kind enough to share with you what they have.

Walt

[padgett]

Seat belt interlock was for the 1974 model year.

[John348]

Mr P

 

I am not really sure of the point you are trying to make here? 

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, Walt G said:

The window crank and inside door handles were cast in white metal - great in 1931 but after 40+ years the composition of the white metal deteriorated and the window crank on the drivers door was broken.  The regular interior door hardware for Franklin of the same year and model did not match, Derham used something else!

I was at my friend Joe Star's  house who owned a Springfield , Mass. built R-R Phantom II town car. He saw the broken handle and went in and got a pick and small hammer and removed the remains of the broken handle that had been there before i bought my car. He then went over to his Phantom II and unscrewed the window crank from his door and came back and screwed it into the door on my car and rolled down the window! Looked at me and said " So is that what you want to do?"  Apparently Derham and Brewster bodies used the same hardware supplier in NY for their cars - McFarland and Co.

SO I then set about looking for Brewster interior hardware /handles for my Derham. I called Dave Domidion and he asked me "what Brewster RR Phantom I do you own - I know of everyone in existence "- I told Dave that I had  a Derham bodied Franklin and why I needed the handles. He roared with laughter said "No Sxxt" ! He sold me the interior handles I needed that are still in use on the car today.

SO , yes the paperwork is around, as is the information , you just have to be fortunate enough to know where to look and who to ask that will be kind enough to share with you what they have.

Walt

In the 1980's either Special Interest Autos, or Car & Parts magazine had a page of reprinted ads from suppliers of interior hardware such as these directed at custom coachbuilders.  The reprints were from some trade publication like Automotive Industries, or some other long-defunct title.   I would not be surprised there will be some interchangeability of certain interior trim items where custom coachbuilders were still independent.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

12 hours ago, rocketraider said:

The more of this stuff you have, the better you understand your vehicle.

 

I've settled a few Oldsmobile judging disputes with my literature, esp when there were factory "fixes" involved. Also when a judge didn't know as much about the cars he was scoring as he thought. 2016 Olds Nats, the only 1964 Starfire on the field (and one of the three nationwide I know of) that had its correct chambered pipes/resonator exhaust got docked significantly for "non-factory exhaust". The judge who docked it will judge nothing but Starfires, and I was busy judging another class. CSM, 1964 Facts and Features manual, and parts book settled the question, albeit too late for the car to win its best of class.

 

So yeah, if your goal is total accuracy, you need the stuff.

 

When on the judging field I respectfully inform the judges that any authenticity  deduction should be referred to me, on the field in real time. Both our restorer and I come prepared for every question, including thousands of photos of our car, it’s restoration, and other original cars..............documentation and photographic proof need to be on hand if your serious about judging. Recently, we were on the show field with another car.......and the restoration team were busting my balls they had me beat.........So I asked them,  do you have the tool kit, jack and handle, owners Manuel, and sales catalog with you? I got no answer, then I asked why they had four incorrect things on thr car I could see from ten feet away.....including an aluminum trim on the running board when it should be plated brass, incorrect body maker plates, wrong year mirrors, and door handles on backwards..........they shut up very quickly. Their connected owner and shop still did well, but our car had factory NOS plugs, and cap...........both items I pointed out to the judges.......and they get it. When you have 90 year old nos plugs in you engine.....,they question much less, and just look and admire. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

What was shared by the coach builders was the mechanism inside the doors that was covered by the upholstery, Brewster and Derham shared that - same manufacturer with the glass retainer metal channel cut to fit the particular door and window size. I only know fairly specifically for those two body builders because I did own cars with their coachwork. Not sure what level of same was used by others like LeBaron, Willoughby, Biddle & Smart , Judkins etc. Mc Farland and Co. of NY City issued 8 x 10 photographs to body/coach builders of what they had on offer in matched sets I have about half dozen photographs of the sets on offer circa 1930. Autobody magazine was the coach builders trade magazine and was not found on news stands like other automotive periodicals. Motor Vehicle Monthly was another industry magazine that was published by Ware Brothers in Philadelphia .