1925 Buick battery voltage 6 or 8

[KEK]

I got it backwards. I would actually need a longer rod because when i step on the pedal the rod moves out and the brushed drop down on the taper as you explained above. I went out and looked at the rod and following your timing description it looks like the brushes are on the flat part of the rod. Then when I push the pedal the rod only has to move a little further back before the brushes move down on the taper. There is no m,ovement of the sliding gear at this point.

 

Do you have any idea of how many different length of operating rod were made For these SGs? I have a shorter rod but it is for a master SG but i don’t have a longer rod. I think I need to have a friend come over to push the pedal so I can watch it closer and compare with you timing description.

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Ken. 

    I struggled with gear mate up on my Starter Generator.  It turns out someone put a Master gear on the Starter Generator and it is supposed to have a Standard Gear.  Different diameter gears.  Larry DiBarry finally set me straight.  Perhaps someone has changed a part in your car?  Do you have the two taper washers installed on the SG mount?  

 

I am under the impression that the rod is too short or something else is out of adjustment, A short rod would shut off the motoring early.  

 

Remove the sheetmetal gear cover. and the SG cover.

Either remove the starter pedal assembly or have someone push the pedal down to where the gears are meshed and slid on 1/4 of the way.  The generator brush should just now be lifted.  At 1/8 meshed, you should be able to flip the ignition on and see on the amp meter that you have current flowing thru the generator.  The taper should be just starting on the starter brush, allowing the generator brush to lift at the 1/4 way location.  

There is a bolt with a pin in the end that holds the taper shaft onto the gear slide mechanism.  It is the only bolt on the pointer shaft.  Consider removing this bolt,  rotating the pointer 90 degrees to get out of the hole in the shaft, and install a temporary bolt so that you can adjust where the taper starts.  It may require drilling a new hole in the shaft once you find the location where it works properly.

 

There is no adjustment for any of this operation.   You have to understand the theory of operation and look for a damaged, worn, or incorrect part.  Short of that you need to make an adjustment somewhere so that it operates properly.   It may make more sense to adjust the brushes or brush linkages than to mess with this pointer.  Adjusting the pointer point of contact may be all that you need to make this operate correctly.

   Hugh     

Edited March 8, 2021 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[KEK]

Hi Hugh -

 

Yes the two tapered washers are installed. You mentioned earlier about checking to make sure the insulated roller is not worn out. I had what looked like to me a new roller when I sent the SG to the rebuilder. He may not have replaced it. Is it possible that the wrong size roller is installed and the diameter could affect the timing. I am going to call the rebuilder today and see if he has an idea and if he would recommend how to adjust the brushes if that is even possible. Great idea to rotate the operating rod and install a temporary bolt. 

 

It will take me a couple days to go through all the tests you suggested. Hopefully I will find a solution. I better get going as I have a lot of homework to do!

 

Thanks for all your help,

Ken

[KEK]

Hugh -

 

I ran one of the tests you suggested. When I push the pedal down about 1-inch and the motoring stops the amps do indeed drop off. So the brushes must be lifted off at this moment.  It also appears that the sliding gear is just starting to move when the motoring stops but not yet engaged. 

 

So I figured if I pushed the pedal down faster then maybe the gears can mesh before the motoring comes to a completed stop. I tried that numerous times and it does seem to work. Maybe I just don’t know how to push the pedal correctly! Never owned a Buick before. Does your motoring stop if you push the pedal down slowly about 1-inch without engaging the starter gears?

 

 I have a video I could send you but can’t figure out how to attached it.

 

Ken

[Marty Roth]

A dead spot inbetween Motoring and engaging the flywheel to spin the engine?

Mine doesn't do that

[Robert Engle]

Hugh:  I see the tool for fine tuning beside the S/G.

 

Bob Engle

[Hubert_25-25]

Bob, 

    You are very observant.  There are numerous pieces that have tempted me alter their status with that particular tool.  Actually that mallet and the deep impact socket is what I needed to remove the sliding gear shaft.  Some of that casting is pretty thin as well and I was afraid of breaking something.    Hugh 

[Hubert_25-25]

Ken, 

   Several ways to address what you need.  Maybe you are just engaging the starter pedal too slowly which is the easiest fix.  What you are wanting to do is delay lifting the generator brush (keeping the generator running longer).   You could put a slight S shape into arm #7.  This makes the gap at the end of arm #7 a little longer.  Longer generator brush #10 would also delay lifting.  You have new brushes so that is already taken care of.   If the insulator was made larger than stock, that would reduce the gap at the end of arm #7 and would lift the generator brush prematurely.  

[KEK]

Hugh -

 

I tried again this afternoon engaging the starter pedal faster and after 4 or 5 times they each engaged fine without any grinding. It looks like I at least have a solution.

 

I ran out of time today to call the rebuilder to see if he replaced the insulated roller. I didn’t see a roller on the itemized list of parts on the invoice so he may not have. I may just have him send me a new one to make sure I have the correct size. I am close but not yet ready to fine tune it with the double jack as Bob suggests...

 

Ken

[KEK]

Hugh -

 

I removed the cover that has the oiler on the front of a spare master SG I have for parts and found what looks like packing material made out of yard or cotton string. I assume it is saturated with oil to lubricate the armature shaft. See photos. I don't have any packing material in my rebuilt SG so I need to add some. What material did you put in yours?

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Ken, 

    I still had packing in both of my SG units so I never replaced mine.  Perhaps someone else has replaced theirs.    Hugh

[KEK]

Hugh -

 

I am going to stuff some Tiki Torch wicking in the housing. It’s fiberglass so it should last a long time and seems to really wick the Tiki Torch oil. I am glad I removed the oiler cover on my spare SG.  I didn’t realize there was supposed to be wicking material on top of the shaft. I don’t see how that helps to oil the bearing if the oil is on the shaft. No holes for it to seep into the bearing...

 

Ken

[KEK]

Hugh -

 

I spoke with Rex from Precision Power who rebuilt my starter generator and he suggested that I file off about 1/16” from the NOS motor brush. This is brush #8 shown in the figure you posted above. He said this would delay the starter operation to give a little more time for the gears to mesh. What do you think about this idea?

 

Not sure how hard it would be to remove the brush while installed on the car. I certainly don’t want to damage something and have a bigger problem. Alternatively I could leave it as is and see if wear and tear will lower the brush height but that might take forever since I don’t drive it that much.

 

Thanks,

Ken

[Hubert_25-25]

Ken, 

     Actually when you look at the diagram, shortening the starter brush #8 is not going to help your situation.   This will only delay engagement of the starter motor.  You want to delay when the generator brush lifts so that it motors a little longer and the gears actually mesh.  Remember we are trying to lengthen the gap in the fork in the end of link #7 .

This means you should either

a) install a shorter carbon generator brush.  (trade him a slightly used brush for your new brush).  These are also easy to file.

b) Putting an S in link #7

c) increasing the OD of the insulated roller that runs on the pointy rod.   This actually delays disengagement of the generator and engagement of the starter, so this is the best fix overall, but maybe your starter engagement location is OK and you can get away with only doing a or b.  

 

Also, my SG had felt inside under the oiler.  The other photo shows link #7.  Notice the insulator is missing for the slotted end.  You can also see the wear spot on the roller that contacts the pointed rod.

Hugh

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[KEK]

Hi Hugh - 

 

Thanks for the advice on the SG. Glad I didn’t file the starter brush!  I think I am just going to kick the can down the road for a while because I can start the car without grinding the sliding gears if I push the pedal quickly and without hesitation. That method so far has worked every time. Then when I have some time I’ll change out the insulated roller. I have so many other thing to do on the car that are more pressing so I can have a drivable car... I am making lots of progress thanks to your advise and others on this forum.

 

Never occurred to me to use felt under the oiler. That makes sense. I suspect someone long ago stuffed in cotton rope on my spare master SG.  The Wiki Torch wicking I am using in my rebuilt SG should work.  It sure wicks up a lot of oil.

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

C