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Juice Brakes


George Cole

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2 minutes ago, broker-len said:

1928------ first year for plymouth,,,,hydraulic brakes    ---master cylinder had a separate fluid container hung on firewall

 

 

Most of the earlier Lockheed hydraulic brakes had a separate reservoir on the firewall. The braking was by external bands on all four wheels. It had a small hand pump, and part of the daily maintenance was to pump it up. Allow it to sit for a few minutes with the valve closed to allow air bubbles to rise. Then open the valve so the brake springs would push the excess fluid back into the reservoir taking the air bubbles with it. THEN one NEEDED to close the valve again, otherwise, when the brake pedal was pressed, the fluid would go up into the reservoir instead of activating the brakes! I heard from a fellow that failed to do that once in his Paige. Fortunately, he had a properly working hand brake and was able to pull over safely and clear the issues he had caused. (I actually think part of his problem was that he did not adjust his brakes properly in the first place.)

A lot of cars used the system in the 1920s. Properly sorted and adjusted, the system works very well. A friend had a '27 Peerless sedan with the Lockheed external band system. He loved it once he got it properly adjusted.

 

The 1929 Reo Flying Cloud I had many years ago had internal shoe hydraulic brakes. They were very similar to typical drum brakes common in the '40s and '50s. I never confirmed it, but have read that the internal shoe hydraulic brakes came out in 1928 as an improved system. (Anybody know when for certain?)

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30 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

 

Unless it was HIS newfangled technology!

 

(Sorry Henry, you know I am one of your biggest fans!)

 

 

Henry's newfangled technology wasn't - if he had his way, we'd still be driving Model T.  🤣  (In spite of that,  I'm also a fan.)

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16 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

 

Most of the earlier Lockheed hydraulic brakes had a separate reservoir on the firewall. The braking was by external bands on all four wheels. It had a small hand pump, and part of the daily maintenance was to pump it up. Allow it to sit for a few minutes with the valve closed to allow air bubbles to rise. Then open the valve so the brake springs would push the excess fluid back into the reservoir taking the air bubbles with it. THEN one NEEDED to close the valve again, otherwise, when the brake pedal was pressed, the fluid would go up into the reservoir instead of activating the brakes! I heard from a fellow that failed to do that once in his Paige. Fortunately, he had a properly working hand brake and was able to pull over safely and clear the issues he had caused. (I actually think part of his problem was that he did not adjust his brakes properly in the first place.)

A lot of cars used the system in the 1920s. Properly sorted and adjusted, the system works very well. A friend had a '27 Peerless sedan with the Lockheed external band system. He loved it once he got it properly adjusted.

 

The 1929 Reo Flying Cloud I had many years ago had internal shoe hydraulic brakes. They were very similar to typical drum brakes common in the '40s and '50s. I never confirmed it, but have read that the internal shoe hydraulic brakes came out in 1928 as an improved system. (Anybody know when for certain?)

Franklin used Wagner Lockheed internal shoe brakes right from their start in '28.  Heavy 14 inch pressed steel drums on all four corners. And a box reservoir master cylinder that used a compensating port in the master cylinder bore, just like all later systems used to prevent fluid from backing into the reservoir when the pedal is pressed. In '30 they moved the reservoir to a firewall mounted can so as not to have to remove the floor board to check fluid level. Otherwise, from the start, it was basically the same as all internal shoe drum systems.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, KRK Sr. said:

Wills Ste Claire,  4 wheel in 1924. You can check mine out in Gettysburg on Saturday. 1926 Wills with Lockheed exterior bands on steel drums. 

Karl:

 Hope to see you there. We have missed you at the Fayettville spot since this virus shut down.

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It should be noted that early hydraulic brakes were indeed that...Early. They required regular set up and adjustments with special tooling. Well, the Lockheed brakes anyway.  When set up, these  old single reservoir hydraulic brake systems work quite well. I can’t complain about the stock system in my ‘38 plymouth. It’s certainly adequate when all 4 corners are properly set up. In my experience the early type lockheed brake shoes are easier to replace than any later fandangled self adjusting shoes with integrated park brake. I quite like the Mopar driveline parkbrake with Lockheeds on each corner. Once you get some experience with dialing everything it, it all works very well. Its also simple too. 

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3 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Am I the only one who never heard the term “Juice Brakes” referring to anything automotive much less hydraulic brakes?

You might be one of the few. They've been called "juice" brakes by hot rodders for at least 70 years since someone discovered that a set of 40 Ford brakes would fit their Model A with a bit of backyard engineering

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3 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Am I the only one who never heard the term “Juice Brakes” referring to anything automotive much less hydraulic brakes?

 

I dunno...maybe.  I guess I could have started a thread on automotive slang.  How about: 

 

tappet ticker;

slush box,

slip-and-slide-Powerglide;

gear grinder;

Armstrong steering pump;

English toilet paper wipers (referring to windshield wipers that don't clean anything...they just smear it around so it'll dry faster);

rolling roadblock (huge motorhome or anyone towing anything under the speed limit in the left lane);

six-pack,

run-what-you-brung;

winky-blinky lights;

blow the doors off.

 

Anyone else what to jump in here?

 

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George, Knox Trucks had the first "sold" Lockheed brakes on a log truck in 1917. They say they were first production vehicle sold with them on. Model A Duesenberg had them in 1921, but leaked soon after until a better rubber cup was designed.  Maxwell offered them in 1923. Karl

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26 minutes ago, KRK Sr. said:

George, Knox Trucks had the first "sold" Lockheed brakes on a log truck in 1917. They say they were first production vehicle sold with them on. Model A Duesenberg had them in 1921, but leaked soon after until a better rubber cup was designed.  Maxwell offered them in 1923. Karl

 

 

I have been in the Knox club for years, and didn't know that!👍

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I have Lockheed hydraulic brakes on my 1928 Graham-Paige.  I have not adjusted them in about 5 years, drove 16 miles yesterday.  The problem/difference is the master cylinder is it dose not have a bypass check valve, so you need to add brake fluid if you have brake material wear.  With the car stopped, you loosen up the reservoir/pump lock, give it a couple pumps, watch the pedal rise in the car, screw it back closed.  Yes it will lock up all 4 wheels on pavement.   The nice part about the system is it is not vented so the system will not suck moisture from the atmosphere.  Graham-Paige went to self adjusting in 1929 model year.

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My 1928 Dodge Brothers has all 4 wheel Lockheed hydraulic brakes with 14 inch internal drums all around. The only problem is the master . It is quite heavy to hold up in position with one hand while attempting to bolt it on into the frame. It has a check valve. The wheel   cylinders are positioned higher than the master so it is not practical to bleed by gravity. LAST OF THE DODGE BROTHERS. Best machining and fit I have ever seen.

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Jeff, that same box of bands, arms and wheel cylinders is on the shelf if you do another Kissel!! I could not believe what (no name here) did to that car after you restored it, I hope you can make it on Saturday.  ( I just sent you a PM), Karl

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