Classic car window stickers?

[Mr_Bill1]

Hi. l'm Bill in Houston. Looking to get a classic maybe next year. Possibly a Datsun 510 or 240Z. Does anyone know if there's a website that has images of window stickers? Mainly interested in MSRPs of vehicles.  l'm also interested in seeing stickers of other vehicles, such as 73-79 Ford trucks and 77-78 Trans Ams.

[1937hd45]

Please explain for the unknowing what the heck these things are? 

[TAKerry]

I have a window sticker for a 77 trans am, pm and I can send you some pics.

[gossp]

30 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Please explain for the unknowing what the heck these things are? 

The piece of paper on the window of a car at the dealership. Gives a rough rundown of the vehicles options (but not quite a build sheet) as well as the MSRP. At some point in history the epa fuel economy stuff was included as well.  My dad still has one in the drivers side rear window of his 64 Studebaker (well, a copy of the original that stayed with the car). 

[Mr_Bill1]

43 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I have a window sticker for a 77 trans am, pm and I can send you some pics.

PM sent. Thanks.

[padgett]

Monroney sponsored the Automobile Information Disclosure Act of 1958,

[Akstraw]

Interesting question.  I am not aware of anyone who collects or archives window stickers per se, but it is an intriguing concept.

if I were looking for such, I would seek out a vintage Datsun club or forum, and post there.  More than a few window stickers have ended up in the glove box for the life of the car.  If you just want the original MSRP, these are easy to find on Edmunds or NADA sites

[Frank DuVal]

I know a guy....😉

 

Seriously, I do know a guy who reproduces window stickers for late model Corvairs. He has the MSRP and options list prices. Should be people who do other vehicles.

[kevin1221]

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I know a guy....😉

 

Seriously, I do know a guy who reproduces window stickers for late model Corvairs. He has the MSRP and options list prices. Should be people who do other vehicles.

There is also an individual that reproduces window sticks for early Mustangs. These are very authentic and use the correct print wheel.

 

Kevin

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

I know a guy....😉

 

Seriously, I do know a guy who reproduces window stickers for late model Corvairs. He has the MSRP and options list prices. Should be people who do other vehicles.

 

I have a really hard time with the whole reproduction window sticker/build sheet/broadcast card thing. There is no reason to get one unless one is trying to "justify" a bogus car. It's not the original, so it doesn't prove anything. If you want it for display purposes, there are plenty of ways to display the same information that do not require a fake window sticker. Sorry, but the only reason to get one is to give the impression that the car came from the factory the way it is equipped now. This is especially important with cars like Oldsmobiles where the factory build data does not exist. If one truly has the original window sticker (or build sheet, or broadcast card), that's an awesome artifact. Fake window stickers just dilute the value of such a real piece of documentation.

[TAKerry]

PHS-Pontiac Historical Services- is a great record keeper for (obviously) Pontiacs. Send them your vin and they can give you most of the info needed on that particular car. In my case I do not have a build sheet for my 1977 trans am. Nor do I have the 'original' window sticker. One of the services that PHS used to offer is a reproduction window sticker. I do have one for my car and there is nothing FAKED on it. It shows all of the information as would have been on there originally. I am not sure if PHS still does the window stickers but there is a fellow that has taken up the slack. I have one of his as well because it is more authentically replicated. I use it as a display when I go to a show. A lot of people will comment on it as it has the original pricing information which is of the most interest. It looks brand new and there is no way someone should or could confuse it with an original. As far as Pontiacs go, with the vin and body tag, its kinda hard to FAKE something, unless a vin is swapped and thats a whole different story. I am not familiar with other brands but it is my understanding that some are a bit harder to VERIFY than others. Personally I would never buy a car based on what a reproduction build sheet or window sticker implied.

[joe_padavano]

46 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

PHS-Pontiac Historical Services- is a great record keeper for (obviously) Pontiacs. Send them your vin and they can give you most of the info needed on that particular car. In my case I do not have a build sheet for my 1977 trans am. Nor do I have the 'original' window sticker. One of the services that PHS used to offer is a reproduction window sticker. I do have one for my car and there is nothing FAKED on it. It shows all of the information as would have been on there originally. I am not sure if PHS still does the window stickers but there is a fellow that has taken up the slack. I have one of his as well because it is more authentically replicated. I use it as a display when I go to a show. A lot of people will comment on it as it has the original pricing information which is of the most interest. It looks brand new and there is no way someone should or could confuse it with an original. As far as Pontiacs go, with the vin and body tag, its kinda hard to FAKE something, unless a vin is swapped and thats a whole different story. I am not familiar with other brands but it is my understanding that some are a bit harder to VERIFY than others. Personally I would never buy a car based on what a reproduction build sheet or window sticker implied.

 

Unfortunately, not every marque has the benefit of an information source like PHS or a Marti Report. As I noted, there are no such records for Oldsmobile. New documents can be "antiqued", this process has been done for decades. I would similarly be skeptical of such a document if presented as "evidence", but many potential buyers are not so well versed in the intricacies of automotive verification.

[dalef62]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

I have a really hard time with the whole reproduction window sticker/build sheet/broadcast card thing. There is no reason to get one unless one is trying to "justify" a bogus car. It's not the original, so it doesn't prove anything. If you want it for display purposes, there are plenty of ways to display the same information that do not require a fake window sticker. Sorry, but the only reason to get one is to give the impression that the car came from the factory the way it is equipped now. This is especially important with cars like Oldsmobiles where the factory build data does not exist. If one truly has the original window sticker (or build sheet, or broadcast card), that's an awesome artifact. Fake window stickers just dilute the value of such a real piece of documentation.

I have never thought about a REPRODUCTION window sticker but I think it might be nice to have one on the car at shows and it would not be to "JUSTIFY" my car.   My cars are mostly as they came from the factory.  Just think how many people ask, how much your car cost when new...  What did certain options cost?  What option codes were? What they charged for delivery?  etc... 

Yes there are some people out there to deceive, but more are out to educate the public!!  

[joe_padavano]

4 minutes ago, dalef62 said:

I have never thought about a REPRODUCTION window sticker but I think it might be nice to have one on the car at shows and it would not be to "JUSTIFY" my car.   My cars are mostly as they came from the factory.  Just think how many people ask, how much your car cost when new...  What did certain options cost?  What option codes were? What they charged for delivery?  etc... 

Yes there are some people out there to deceive, but more are out to educate the public!!  

 

There are plenty of other resources to provide that info, such as the SPECS booklets for Oldsmobile that list the RPO codes and prices. Nearly everyone I've ever met who wants a repro window sticker has a "restored" car that now has every option in the book, all added during the "restoration". Even worse are the one-of-none cars that have "proof". What's the point of a window sticker - the car didn't come that way from the factory. And frankly, who paid MSRP for a new car? I've seen lots of display boards that listed the options and prices. It didn't require a bogus window sticker. Sorry, but in my opinion, the only reason for a fake window sticker is to give the impression that this is how the car came from the factory.

Edited August 17, 2020 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

I have a really hard time with the whole reproduction window sticker/build sheet/broadcast card thing. There is no reason to get one unless one is trying to "justify" a bogus car. It's not the original, so it doesn't prove anything. If you want it for display purposes, there are plenty of ways to display the same information that do not require a fake window sticker. Sorry, but the only reason to get one is to give the impression that the car came from the factory the way it is equipped now. This is especially important with cars like Oldsmobiles where the factory build data does not exist. If one truly has the original window sticker (or build sheet, or broadcast card), that's an awesome artifact. Fake window stickers just dilute the value of such a real piece of documentation.

 

This is another justify my Post WWII mass produced car deal IMO. When and what manufacturer produced the first data stickers, sheets whatever?

 

Bob 

[60FlatTop]

I got a Maroney sticker for my latest, what I call, collector car. It is only 17 years old, but that is how old my '64 Riviera was when I bought it. My '94 Impala was 15 years old when I bought that. If the stuff is available why not get it. I think it was only about $15. If I hadn't been happy with it I would be able to tell the price to the penny.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

18 hours ago, Mr_Bill1 said:

Does anyone know if there's a website that has images of window stickers?

 

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

If one truly has the original window sticker (or build sheet, or broadcast card), that's an awesome artifact. 

 

Maybe inadvertently, Mr. Bill, you have brought up

an excellent idea that isn't often thought of!  Wouldn't

it be great if a marque club, such as Buick, Cadillac, or

Lincoln, created an archive of original window stickers!

It would be another way of preserving automotive history.

 

Such a collection would be fun to peruse.  If there were

enough, you'd see how popular some colors were, or glimpse

some oddity like a '69 Buick Wildcat 4-door hardtop with a

manual transmission.  You'd see how many cars with,

say, a $4000 base price actually ended up retailing for $6000.

 

If all you need are the MSRP and option prices, however, they

are available in quite a number of automotive reference books,

such as Krause Publication's several versions of "Standard 

Catalog of American Cars."

[TAKerry]

To the OP, I sent you an email and right away received a text on my phone that was clearly a scam. The scam involved a person named Bill. Not sure if this is pure coincedence or not, but until I see you with a few more post I will not forward any thing further. If the scam is not you I apologize.

[1937hd45]

24 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

To the OP, I sent you an email and right away received a text on my phone that was clearly a scam. The scam involved a person named Bill. Not sure if this is pure coincedence or not, but until I see you with a few more post I will not forward any thing further. If the scam is not you I apologize.

Thank You!

[Morgansdad]

I have one of the "reproduction" window stickers for my Corvette Stingray for when I show it. I don't have it to try and deceive anyone. As a matter of fact, the guys that do the window stickers for the Corvette are so meticulous about reproducing these that you must send them proof of the Vin number so nothing can be added that didn't come with the car. Anyway, I have the document to let people remember what you got back in the day for $5600. I must be different than most because, I would have never thought of using one to deceive anyone.

[joe_padavano]

36 minutes ago, Morgansdad said:

I have one of the "reproduction" window stickers for my Corvette Stingray for when I show it. I don't have it to try and deceive anyone. As a matter of fact, the guys that do the window stickers for the Corvette are so meticulous about reproducing these that you must send them proof of the Vin number so nothing can be added that didn't come with the car. Anyway, I have the document to let people remember what you got back in the day for $5600. I must be different than most because, I would have never thought of using one to deceive anyone.

 

Most vendors of repro window stickers have far lower standards, and as I've pointed out a couple of times in this thread, the detailed build sheet info is not always available for some marques, so it isn't possible to "prove" the configuration of the car when it left the factory. Heck, with Oldsmobiles, it isn't even possible to prove the car is a real 442 if it was built in Fremont in the 1964-67 model years. Options like W-30, which can be worth 3x or 4x on value, cannot be proven prior to the 1972 model year. I've seen too many questionable cars for sale at stupid money asking prices that have "documentation", including window stickers and build sheets that are questionable at best.

Edited August 17, 2020 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[padgett]

Lots easier when they started using the "service parts information" sticker.

 

 

[joe_padavano]

53 minutes ago, padgett said:

Lots easier when they started using the "service parts information" sticker.

 

 

 

Yeah, but I don't think many cars with SPIDs will be as collectable as ones before that time. 😉

[Mr_Bill1]

l'm not looking to buy reproction window stickers, just want to see them on the internet. TAKerry, the scam was not me.

[TAKerry]

Very Good Mr. Bill, I meant no offense at all. Not more than 5 minutes after I sent a reply email I got a text message that was clearly a scam, by pure chance the text wanted me to reply to a person named Bill (OK, I am sure there are other people named Bill, LOL). I dont take any more chances than I need to. Although I am a new member here as well, a single post and the text threw me a red flag. I will post what I have.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

We have a reproduction window sticker for our car and it's purely for display purposes (and a lot easier to carry around that creating a separate display board).   As Morgansdad said, it lets people know what cars like ours cost when they were new.   Except for old geezers like me who remember these cars when they were new, younger people usually find the price surprising (because they're used to seeing new cars today cost at least ten times as much).  We clearly acknowledge it's a reproduction sticker and don't need it to prove anything--we have two build sheets to document the car.  (We also have the Protecto-Plate, but all it documents is the original owner and dealer--it doesn't list options.)  When we purchased it, the company we purchased the it from--Triple A Enterprises (window-sticker.com)--would only produce one if you provided a copy of your build sheet and would not add options not on the build sheet.  I just checked their website and it now appears that they produce generic window stickers for the base model car without any added options, but still will only produce a sticker with options if you provide the build sheet for your vehicle.

 

I understand Joe's concern and agree that there are a lot more W-30 Oldsmobiles and LS-6 Chevelles out there than were ever produced, some with falsified documentation and some sold as "original car but no documentation."  (In my opinion, if a car doesn't have documentation, it might be real but it's not worth the money a documented car brings and, unfortunately, it's probably not real.  Buyer beware--buy it and enjoy it, just acknowledge it's probably a clone and pay appropriately.)

 

Personally, I'd never accept a window sticker alone as documentation.  As Joe and others have pointed out, they're easily replicated (and aged) and, in my experience, original window stickers are probably rarer than original build sheets.  They're at least rare to encounter without a build sheet accompanying them.  

 

Sadly, all items used to document a car can be duplicated, whether it's the window sticker, build sheet, trim plate, vin stamping on the engine block, frame, etc.  The actual vin plate is a little more difficult to fake, but I've read it can be done plus people will change vin plates from one car to another.  It's sad that there are people who will try to deceive others by falsifying documentation and trying to pass off cars for something they're not.  If they put as much effort into restoring a car accurately, they could make good money honestly by cloning cars accurately and selling them as reproductions/clones/"tributes" and could take pride in their work.  

 

This is just one guy's opinion.  It doesn't mean anyone else's opinion in the discussion above is wrong, it just means we see the entertainment value of a reproduction window sticker a little differently.

[joe_padavano]

57 minutes ago, Mark McAlpine said:

Personally, I'd never accept a window sticker alone as documentation.  As Joe and others have pointed out, they're easily replicated (and aged) and, in my experience, original window stickers are probably rarer than original build sheets.  They're at least rare to encounter without a build sheet accompanying them. 

 

Agreed, Mark, but unfortunately with Oldsmobile, the Lansing plant specifically did not leave build sheets in the cars, and all the valuable W-cars were only built in Lansing, so...

 

And there have been more than a couple of bogus Oldsmobiles offered for sale with stupid money asking prices justified with questionable window stickers as documentation. The most egregious is the notorious yellow 1964 Faux Four Two convertible with an automatic (all 64 442s were four speed only).  The seller had a window sticker that purported to back up the expected "special order" story for that one-of-none car.

[padgett]

And ve haff our ways to identify real GTOs.

[1937hd45]

What is the stupid number on an Oldsmobile 442 convertible there is a 1970 or 1972 down the street all restored, they all look the same to me, just wondering. Most money I ever made on a used car was a Hurst Olds I quartered. Bob 

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

4 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Agreed, Mark, but unfortunately with Oldsmobile, the Lansing plant specifically did not leave build sheets in the cars, and all the valuable W-cars were only built in Lansing, so...

 

And there have been more than a couple of bogus Oldsmobiles offered for sale with stupid money asking prices justified with questionable window stickers as documentation. The most egregious is the notorious yellow 1964 Faux Four Two convertible with an automatic (all 64 442s were four speed only).  The seller had a window sticker that purported to back up the expected "special order" story for that one-of-none car.

 

I hear and agree with you completely, Joe.  It's amazing the lengths some people will go to cheat someone.  (Fortunately, most people in the car hobby are honest.)  That's why it's important to do a lot of research before buying an antique vehicle, especially one being described as "rare" or being offered for a lot of money.  (Not that being scammed out of less money is any better.)  I'm fairly knowledgeable on 442s, but if I was going to purchase an expensive W-30, I'd do considerably more research and check with someone more knowledge--like you--to make sure I asked all the right questions and looked in all the right places before buying the car.

 

Out of curiosity, what automatic transmission did the owner of the faux 1966 442 install in the car?

[joe_padavano]

32 minutes ago, Mark McAlpine said:

 

Out of curiosity, what automatic transmission did the owner of the faux 1966 442 install in the car?

 

It was a 64, and it had the 2 speed ST300 (Jetaway) trans, which was the only AT available in the Cutlass line that year.

[8E45E]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 7:10 AM, joe_padavano said:

 

I have a really hard time with the whole reproduction window sticker/build sheet/broadcast card thing. There is no reason to get one unless one is trying to "justify" a bogus car. It's not the original, so it doesn't prove anything. If you want it for display purposes, there are plenty of ways to display the same information that do not require a fake window sticker. Sorry, but the only reason to get one is to give the impression that the car came from the factory the way it is equipped now. This is especially important with cars like Oldsmobiles where the factory build data does not exist. If one truly has the original window sticker (or build sheet, or broadcast card), that's an awesome artifact. Fake window stickers just dilute the value of such a real piece of documentation.

I do as well as I stated here a number of years ago:  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/10284-window-price-stickers-a-sticky-subject#post652581

 

Craig

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

16 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

It was a 64, and it had the 2 speed ST300 (Jetaway) trans, which was the only AT available in the Cutlass line that year.

 

At least he continued the charade & dropped in an available "correct" trans, not a TH-400.

 

I don't understand the attempt to fake a "one of none" car.  Even if he had cloned a Cutlass into a 442, he would've been able to sell it for good money as an acknowledged clone if he had installed the correct 4-speed manual transmission.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, Mark McAlpine said:

 

At least he continued the charade & dropped in an available "correct" trans, not a TH-400.

 

 

He didn't change the trans, just the emblems on the outside of the car...

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 8/17/2020 at 8:05 PM, Mr_Bill1 said:

l'm not looking to buy reproction window stickers, just want to see them on the internet.

 

I don't think any of us have addressed the intent

of your original posting!  But I know of no internet

sites that compile original window stickers.

 

As I mentioned before, Krause Publications' books,

the "Standard Catalog of American Cars," list all sorts

of information on cars, including original factory prices,

and the prices of major options.  They have photos of

most models, and indicate how many of each model

(such as a 1964 Buick Electra 4-door hardtop) were made.

The one that covers American cars from 1946 to 1975 may cover

a lot of your interest;  it's probably 1000 pages long.  They have

another for later American cars; another for earlier American cars; 

one for imported cars;  another for trucks and utility vehicles.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Catalog-American-Cars-1946-1975/dp/087349461X

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[padgett]

There are usually ways to tell, often from the date codes, others by suspension changes (like boxed trailing arms or fender holes). To make a clone 100% right is not easy.

[Guest Mark McAlpine]

7 hours ago, padgett said:

There are usually ways to tell, often from the date codes, others by suspension changes (like boxed trailing arms or fender holes). To make a clone 100% right is not easy.

 

I agree 100%.  If you know the model car, there are other ways to help identify if it's authentic.  You might not be able to confirm 100% that it's authentic, but you can help support the conclusion and definitely can refute the claim.  Some clues are easy--e.g., sweep speedometer instead of round gauges on 1970-1972 Chevelle SSs (because it's expensive to replace the entire instrument cluster).  Others may harder to see (or at least harder to notice unless you know what you're looking for)--e.g., as you pointed out non-boxed rear control/trailing arms, oval front control arm bushings instead of round, etc.

[padgett]

Of course to do this properly you need an expert in the marque particularly one who worked for the mfr and was a gearhead then. (and survived the doldrums when talking "car" was not PC.)