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425 sudden rough idle & stalling


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My 1964 with the 425 was starting and running fine, but oil consumption has been an issue.  I had a compression test done a couple of months ago and I believe the numbers were mid-140's all the way up to 165. That being said, as a band-aid until I can have the motor looked at in more detail (and AFFORD to), I purchased Bars Leak Oil Seal Oil Burning & Leak Repair & added it to my oil. The car ran fine, in fact it seemed to run quieter and started easier. However, after 200-some miles after adding it, now it sputters and stalls and is hard starting. Is it a coincidence and has nothing to do with the additive being used?  Any suggestions on what would cause this?

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 Bars Leak Oil Seal Oil Burning & Leak Repair?  That sounds like quite the advertising campaign...

 

I'm sure you didn't pour it into the gas tank did you?

 

Did you bang the distributor? Put plug wires on wrong? The list is almost endless without more details

 

PS these motors do burn oil how much you talking?

Edited by gungeey
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It  sounds like an electrical gremlin. Try running a wire directly form the battery positive the the coil ignition switch side then start the motor . If it returns back to normal I would look at the ignition switch. Be aware that once you start the car in  " hot wire" mode,  the only way to shut it down is to disconnect the hot wire. Make sure you have NO GAS LEAKS ANYWHERE  near the hot wire attachment points when doing this. Good luck

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OK Buick People:  Arbitrarily suggesting things is a fool's errand that lowers the bar for all.  Suggest a scientific diagnosis.  Your first step if you can't do it yourself is to seek a qualified person who can diagnose this properly.  After a verifiwed diagnosis you are on to the next step. 

 

The bars leaks?  NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.    Mitch

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12 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

Your first step if you can't do it yourself is to seek a qualified person who can diagnose this properly. 

 

I was thinking about the person who did the compression test. Step one in a tune up. Tune up = plugs, points, and condenser. "I have one more question" Why did they test the compression?

 

Columbo's minimal information problem.

You have bags of gold coins, any number that you wish. Each bag has the same number coins, however many you wish. One bag contains only counterfeit coins. The counterfeit coins either weigh less than the gold coins or more, whichever you wish. You have only a scale to use to find out which bag contains the counterfeit coins. The scale is operated by inserting a penny, and you have just one penny. How do you find the counterfeit coins with only a single weighing?
 

 

 

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13 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Buick People:  Arbitrarily suggesting things is a fool's errand that lowers the bar for all.  Suggest a scientific diagnosis.  Your first step if you can't do it yourself is to seek a qualified person who can diagnose this properly.  After a verifiwed diagnosis you are on to the next step. 

 

The bars leaks?  NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.    Mitch

My gut told me not to do it and I ignored it. Anyway, bringing it to a reliable shop today and warming up my credit card.

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22 hours ago, gungeey said:

 Bars Leak Oil Seal Oil Burning & Leak Repair?  That sounds like quite the advertising campaign...

 

I'm sure you didn't pour it into the gas tank did you?

 

Did you bang the distributor? Put plug wires on wrong? The list is almost endless without more details

 

PS these motors do burn oil how much you talking?

I poured it in the headlamp receptacle. 1 quart every 120 miles or so, not normal.  Bringing it to a reliable shop today... Thanks

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15 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Buick People:  Arbitrarily suggesting things is a fool's errand that lowers the bar for all.  Suggest a scientific diagnosis.  Your first step if you can't do it yourself is to seek a qualified person who can diagnose this properly.  After a verifiwed diagnosis you are on to the next step. 

 

The bars leaks?  NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.    Mitch

I'm not a scientist so I can't offer a scientific diagnosis. These cars are not that complicated that it takes a scientist to diagnose a common problem . How bout you offer a scientific diagnosis instead of knocking someone who is trying to help. What I offered was based on personal experience. 

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Choke operation?

 

 

12 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

I was thinking about the person who did the compression test. Step one in a tune up. Tune up = plugs, points, and condenser. "I have one more question" Why did they test the compression?

 

Columbo's minimal information problem.

You have bags of gold coins, any number that you wish. Each bag has the same number coins, however many you wish. One bag contains only counterfeit coins. The counterfeit coins either weigh less than the gold coins or more, whichever you wish. You have only a scale to use to find out which bag contains the counterfeit coins. The scale is operated by inserting a penny, and you have just one penny. How do you find the counterfeit coins with only a single weighing?
 

 

 

 

Another mind game: What will the experienced help find? And who cares to take a shot at the correct determination?
I'm thinking improperly function choke.

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11 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

I'm not a scientist so I can't offer a scientific diagnosis. These cars are not that complicated that it takes a scientist to diagnose a common problem . How bout you offer a scientific diagnosis instead of knocking someone who is trying to help. What I offered was based on personal experience. 

OK Arnulfo:  I'm saying that there is a scientific procedure used to diagnose any mechanical malfunction. This case?  it could be fuel, it could be electrical and it could even be mechanical. Having a starting point and eliminate each system from there. It is NOT simple.   Mitch

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1 hour ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Arnulfo:  I'm saying that there is a scientific procedure used to diagnose any mechanical malfunction. This case?  it could be fuel, it could be electrical and it could even be mechanical. Having a starting point and eliminate each system from there. It is NOT simple.   Mitch

I agree .have a starting point and eliminate it. I suggested making the electrical as a starting point by using a simple method.

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R8RS,

Here's my 2 cent worth.  It was running fine for 200 mile with the additive.  I don't think the additive has anything to do with it.  It ran fine after the compression test, again 200 miles, but could a plug wire have popped off or broken on the inside?    Only way to tell is with a scope, and who uses scopes now?   Haha.  How old are your plug wires.   You could just replace all the wires if they are old or if you have one long wire go through swapping out one wire at a time to see if it makes a difference.  How does it idle?   If it idle pretty good, but stumbles at higher rpm's, then maybe a fuel filter or fuel pump.   I had a pump go out on me.   The fuels now are hard on fuel pumps, they deteriorate the rubber inside the pump.   This is a starting point, or take it to a repair guy.

 

Just another suggestion,

Art

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On 8/16/2020 at 7:29 PM, 60FlatTop said:

If you put a new condenser on the points find the old one and put it back on. If you tossed it out go to NAPA and get a new Echlin.

I just went thru all the above without testing my condenser because it had less than 200 miles on it.

New condenser came in the mail - now it runs better than ever.

Maddening without a good old oscilloscope.

 

 

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I should have asked what was the reason for the compression test? I would do one as the first step of a tune up. Then the quality of the parts and adjustments of a recent tune up would be in question.

 

If a compression test was done to pinpoint a symptom what was the symptom and the outcome of the diagnostic compression test? And were any other steps taken?

 

So, what inspired the compression test?

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On 8/16/2020 at 11:07 AM, R8RS said:

My 1964 with the 425 was starting and running fine, but oil consumption has been an issue.  I had a compression test done a couple of months ago and I believe the numbers were mid-140's all the way up to 165. That being said, as a band-aid until I can have the motor looked at in more detail (and AFFORD to), I purchased Bars Leak Oil Seal Oil Burning & Leak Repair & added it to my oil. The car ran fine, in fact it seemed to run quieter and started easier. However, after 200-some miles after adding it, now it sputters and stalls and is hard starting. Is it a coincidence and has nothing to do with the additive being used?  Any suggestions on what would cause this?

Update: compression test show Cylinder #1 - 150, 3 - 130, 5 - 120, 7 - 140, 2 - 135, 4 - 130, 6 - 130,  8 - 120 Dry, Wet added 60lbs. The 120lb became 180lbs. He said the plugs were bad, points were shot, starter is tired.  He suggested valve job with hardened seats and valves and probably do the top and bottom of the engine.

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Get a second opinion.  Buick engines already have hardened seats.  This is a big bucks guestimate and the problem may not be addressed. 

 

One easy diagnois you can do tonight is to observe for weak sparkplug wires. Get the car in a dark spot, allow your eyes to adjust to the darkness. Open the hood and start the engine. Then just look on both sides of the motor for telltale tiny blue sparks in the wires. If you find even one you can be sure there is more than one. Either replace them or insulate them with the 3/8ths plastic wire loam sold at stores including Walmart for about $4.00 per package. Thats a temporary fix but will provide immediate relief. You can choose to leave it on new wires too as a precaution. 

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Read what the experts say "NO HARDENED SEATS" There are sufficient quantities of nickle in the iron that Buick casts these blocks from that valve recession is not a problem.  If a machinist wants to install hardened seats in a nailhead he either 1) is padding his bill or 2) knows nothing about Buick engines. Run don't walk the other direction.

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19 hours ago, R8RS said:

He said the plugs were bad, points were shot, starter is tired.  He suggested valve job with hardened seats and valves and probably do the top and bottom of the engine.

 

Before I did a valve job and bottom end engine overhaul I would probably go for the 8 plugs and a good set of Echlin points and condenser. Might even give that "tired" starter a bit of a break.

 

That was the result of the second compression test. I am still wondering what inspired doing the first compression test.

 

Taking a 50 year old car to a modern shop today is like taking a foreign car to a local shop in the 1960's.

 

Check with your local Buick Club chapter and find out where the members are getting their work done, the great benefit of the club.

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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13 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Taking a 50 year old car to a modern shop today is like taking a foreign car to a local shop in the 1960's.

 

Check with your local Buick Club chapter and find out where the members are getting their work done, the great benefit of the club.

I don't know about that. I took Large Marge in the other day for some front end work. When I stuck my head into the shop to talk to Tim, there was a new Toyota, an older Lincoln, and a small block Ford powered Model T flatbed truck in the first three bays. 

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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I started working on cars when I was 11 years old, bought one at 12, and been sharing my experience since I bought the 1959 Rod & Custom magazine with the yellow coupes on the cover. In all that time I have found it is easier to find exceptions to a suggestion than to just go and fix the car.

 

I just wonder why the first compression test was done, 200 miles before it started running bad.

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23 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

Before I did a valve job and bottom end engine overhaul I would probably go for the 8 plugs and a good set of Echlin points and condenser. Might even give that "tired" starter a bit of a break.

 

That was the result of the second compression test. I am still wondering what inspired doing the first compression test.

 

Taking a 50 year old car to a modern shop today is like taking a foreign car to a local shop in the 1960's.

 

Check with your local Buick Club chapter and find out where the members are getting their work done, the great benefit of the club.

The owner of this shop is a classic car guy, he has a lot of experience with the motors and  transmissions of the 60's cars. He has a number of 1960's Chevy's as well. I agree, there's no way I would bring it to a generic modern shop. He replaced the plugs and changed out the points and adjusted the dwell & timing.

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1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

I started working on cars when I was 11 years old, bought one at 12, and been sharing my experience since I bought the 1959 Rod & Custom magazine with the yellow coupes on the cover. In all that time I have found it is easier to find exceptions to a suggestion than to just go and fix the car.

 

I just wonder why the first compression test was done, 200 miles before it started running bad.

I wanted to determine why I had to add a quart of oil every 100 miles or so and was told one way to determine root cause was to do a dry and leak down compression tests and compare the numbers. 

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