1913 Model 25 - engine oil capacity

[mbstude]

1913 Model 25 four cylinder. Needs an oil change. How many quarts does it hold? 

Does anyone have a shop manual or repair guide? It runs and drives but could sure use some maintenance. 
 

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by mbstude (see edit history)

[mbstude]

What, this isn’t common knowledge?

[Stude Light]

Doesn’t have a dip stick? Based on later model Studebaker engines, I would suggest 6 quarts but I have no manuals that far back. 

[mbstude]

No dipstick. All it has is a sight glass that shows oil splashing around when it’s running. 
 

 

[avantey]

Hi MBStude,

I just saw this post and went and got out all my lit on the '25' including a lot of original pieces.  The owner's manual is the most help but even there I cannot find a crankcase capacity. 

 

In one section it says "it consists of a reservoir that holds 1 1/2 quarts capacity, and two pipes, one leading from the reservoir to the crank case and the other to the timing gear case."

 

In another section it states

"At the side of "breather pipe"is a gauge (1) which shows the amount of oil in the reservoir.  Pour the oil in the breather pipe until the gauge indicator rises to the highest point on the gauge.  Be careful that there is no more oil poured into the motor than just enough to bring the indicator to the highest point shown on the gauge.  The only attention necessary to keepthe motor perfectly lubricated is to see that the gauge indicator shows that there is oil in the reservoir.

If the motor smokes badly with blue smoke you have put too much oil in your oil reservoir.  Drain out surplus oil through the drain plug at bottom of the reservoir until the gauge indicator shows there is oil in the reservoir.  The reservoir will hold, normal supply, about 4 quarts."

So it has conflicting amounts for the reservoir and nothing about the crankcase.  I do not think 4 quarts is enough for the crank case but I cannot remember how much I have put in on changes either.  It's been a while as I spent four years looking for someone to rebuild the Splitdorf magneto, took sick and have not gotten back to this car yet.  I would say use the oil indicator and and do not overfill it.  That guage is right next to the filler pipe in your pic but I can't tell if you have the indicator in it from the picture.

 

On a more interesting note I am impressed you have a SA 25!  The previous owner of my car did extensive research and could not find another roadster.  It appears your body has been modifies to a more speedster style with the turtle deck, oval tank, raised open seat, no windshield, no top, no doors, etc.  Is your drive train original with the transaxle?  I see an external mount gearshift and brake lever assembly where mine comes thru the floorboards in that area.

 

Sorry I can't be more help but that's the best info I can find from original literature,

Bill

 

[mbstude]

Hi Bill, thank you for taking the time to respond. What you shared is more informative than anything else I’ve found. We have no manuals or published info on this car, period. 
 

The chassis is mostly stock as far as I can tell. It does have the 3 speed transaxle. The body is a total mutt. The hood is brass, the cowl is wood, and the “speedster” body is plywood. 

A couple of years ago I tracked down a gentleman in his late 90’s who remembers the car from the 1950’s. He was active in a car club in Long Island that focused on brass era cars. He told me that a friend of his found the model 25 chassis in a New Jersey junkyard and they proceeded to get it running and threw together the two seater body out of junk lying around. Apparently they drove the car all over Long Island some 65 years ago. Pretty amazing that it’s still intact and still operable. Once or twice a year I dig it out of its corner and run it around the pastures a bit. The Yellow Lab enjoys it. 
 

Here’s a video. 
 

https://youtu.be/Kiuew0uDpi4

Edited August 16, 2020 by mbstude (see edit history)

[avantey]

Here's two videos of mine made by the previous owner, fun car to drive!

 

 

 

[rustyjazz1938]

Hello Mbstude,

 

I have a 1914 SC-4 (my engine is much dirtier than yours is though!) which I believe is the next model year of your car. I see many similarities to your motor in mine, other than mine has Wagner starting gear, and Remy ignition gear instead of the Splitdorf magneto setup.

 

I think Bill hit the nail on the head. In my manual for the motor (attached a picture for reference), it says the reservoir normally holds 4 quarts, and the couple of times I have changed the oil, the indicator would float up at around 4 quarts. I put 5 quarts in one change and it reached it's peak. My engine does smoke though with that much oil, but I put it down to the fact that my rings are shot. As long as the indicator shows up, and oil is circulating through the sight glass then things should be okay.

 

I have a devil of a time keeping the indicator from bouncing around and getting stuck. On mine it is nothing more than a piece of wire embedded in a cork and the wire gets stuck underneath the hole it is supposed to come through. you can see it happened in the picture with the circle I uploaded (my apologies again for the filthy motor). If the suction tube from your pump is connected like mine, than I would think the object I circled should be the level indicator (picture with arrow pointing to suction tube and circle around indicator). I can't tell from the angle of your photo, but at the bottom of my indicator tube, there is a threaded pipe plug which can be removed to access the cork (best to do this with the oil drained out of the crankcase). Depending on how old your cork is, it might need a replacement. Mine had the original cork which was coming apart in chunks, so I picked a modern replacement at an arts and crafts store. 

 

Good luck and neat car!

 

Thanks for reading,

Rusty Berg

[Bloo]

Another SA-25 owner here. I don't have any books other than a parts list. Dump oil in till you bring that little ball up in the glass. It's just connected to a float, so it tells you the level like a dipstick would. Sorry I don't know the actual oil capacity.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[mbstude]

So the “sight glass” is actually a gauge with a float in it. Had no idea! 
 

Next time I have the car out, I’ll dig into that and see if there are any pieces of the float setup still intact. 
 

Thank you!

 

Also, really cool to see others out there with these brass era Studes. 
 

So the 1914 models came with electric start? Luckily this one typically fires up on the first pull as long as you pour fuel in the cylinders first. For a 107 year old car that was pieced together out of a junk yard, it’s fairly reliable and consistent. 
 

The 1916 SF 4 cylinder touring car here has an electric starter (and electric lights) but I didn’t know what year Studebaker first installed those things. 
 

Once the Florida summer heat breaks I’ll get them both out and make a post on this forum. Neither one has been ran since March. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by mbstude (see edit history)

[rustyjazz1938]

Hello mbstude,

 

I'll be doing some work on my car in the future, so if you need more info about the float setup, I can get you pictures.

 

As to electric lighting and starting, 1914 was the first year for the four cylinder cars to get the setup. I believe the six cylinder cars went electric in 1913. Also, 1914 was the year that all cars went to left hand drive. 

 

Good luck with your cars and happy motoring!

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Rusty Berg

[Bloo]

in addition to the ball and float in the little glass tube on the engine for oil level, there is supposed to be a flow indicator on the dash. Mine isn't hooked up, so I can't really tell you what it should do (I assume you should see the oil flowing through it).

 

My SA-25 (picture is old, I've not had it out this year):

 

 

 

 

[mbstude]

Photos of the float setup would be great. I’m sure I’ll have to repair the one on this car, I seriously doubt it’s still operable. Thank you. 
 

Bloo, thanks for the pic of your car. Nice to see what one of these is “supposed” to look like. 
 

This car does have the flow indicator hooked up on the dash. 
 

This car has been a total mystery to everyone around the shop, and it’s been here for at least 25 years. Pretty fun to learn some things about it. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by mbstude (see edit history)

[avantey]

Here is my late wife and I in the Stude. All original except paint and tires!

 

[avantey]

It is interesting that Bloo's touring has brass headlights and cowls (my car is all nickel), split windshield, top ties down to the firewall (mine goes to hooks under headlights) and the radiator has the squared in corners at the top.  Something looks different about the crank handle too but I can't tell fully from the pictures.

[Studenut1915]

Bloo

The oil flow gauge is feed off the top of the oil pump, through the gauge and returns to the top front of the engine to feed the distributor and timing gears. You can see the lines in Rust's foto of his engine. If the gauge is bypassed you must have line from the pump to the front of the engine. If not you will starve all the timing gears.

My car had the lines removeve an fitting plugged whe i bought my car.i did figure it out before I fired it up.

Pat

 

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Studenut1915 said:

Bloo

The oil flow gauge is feed off the top of the oil pump, through the gauge and returns to the top front of the engine to feed the distributor and timing gears. You can see the lines in Rust's foto of his engine. If the gauge is bypassed you must have line from the pump to the front of the engine. If not you will starve all the timing gears.

My car had the lines removeve an fitting plugged whe i bought my car.i did figure it out before I fired it up.

Pat

 

Thanks. It is bypassed and the engine does oil correctly. I verified that against a Model 25 in an earlier AACA thread. It has been running this way since the 60s.

 

The Model 25 was my dad's, and when the car was assembled in the early 60s. It was in a hurry. My dad and his brothers stayed up all night putting it together for a parade the next morning. It ran the first time early on the morning of the parade. I'm not surprised they left the gauge off, especially if there was something wrong with it.

 

I believe the gauge is around here somewhere, I think I even remember seeing it, but I have never seen it in operation. Is there a little stick in there that spins or do you just watch the oil drip?

 

[Bloo]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, avantey said:

It is interesting that Bloo's touring has brass headlights and cowls (my car is all nickel), split windshield, top ties down to the firewall (mine goes to hooks under headlights) and the radiator has the squared in corners at the top.  Something looks different about the crank handle too but I can't tell fully from the pictures.

 

It is something I have wondered about myself. If I remember correctly yours is one of the newest Model 25's known, is that right? When I checked the HCCA roster back in the 70s, my car was not listed (surprising as my dad was a longtime HCCA member), but the serial number was lower than any of the Model 25s that were listed. I think it was built early in the model year. They started building these 1913 models in late 1912.

 

I have a parts list for the Model 25, but it is a third edition, published 2 or 3 years later. Only one kind of sidelamp is listed. It would be interesting to see what the first edition said. Advertisements do exist that show the touring car with square 2-tier sidelamps like mine, and the roadster with the round ones like yours in the same ad. There are cars out there, most of the survivors IIRC, that have brass headlamps and round sidelamps like yours but with brass rings. It may be running changes, or not. I just don't know.

 

Someday I would like to look all around yours at the details.

 

 

[avantey]

Bloo- Actually as I look more and more closely the body lines are different too.  My cowl area from the hood to the windshield is very different, longer, different slope, more curvature beneath the windshield.  Also my rear fender is more swooped, almost symmetric to the front fender curve.  Yours looks to wrap around the rear wheel more tightly and come into the running board more abruptly.  My windshield folds flat to the hood also, very sporty in the day. 

Here are pages from an original sales catalogue for your touring, lots of other info in this catalogue.  Your car looks very original except for those radiator corners.

 

 

 

 

[avantey]

Now here is the same catalogue info for my roadster.  Differences from car topics are a few.  Prestolite tank is on passenger running board which I think s artistic license.  Would be difficult to enter car over the tank and it is the only door.  The top straps come to hooks on the firewall like the touring but my car has and never had these hooks.  As an original HPOF car the hooks are down by the headlamps and the original straps (part of the all original top) are correspondingly long.

 

[avantey]

Bloo, I have one more shot of the touring with a detail I do not understand.  I cannot see it in the picture of your car from the angle, I also notice you do not have a tool box like the literature.  What is the feature on the splash apron behind the box and in front of the rear fender?  Grease fitting access for the spring shackle?  It is not on the roadster, either in the literature or on the car.

[Stude Light]

15 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

I have a parts list for the Model 25, but it is a third edition, published 2 or 3 years later. Only one kind of sidelamp is listed. It would be interesting to see what the first edition said. Advertisements do exist that show the touring car with square 2-tier sidelamps like mine, and the roadster with the round ones like yours in the same ad. There are cars out there, most of the survivors IIRC, that have brass headlamps and round sidelamps like yours but with brass rings. It may be running changes, or not. I just don't know.

 

Not sure if this helps but this is the side lamp p/n listing for Studebaker Models 20 & 30 and 1913-15

Scott

Edited September 9, 2020 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, avantey said:

Bloo, I have one more shot of the touring with a detail I do not understand.  I cannot see it in the picture of your car from the angle, I also notice you do not have a tool box like the literature.  What is the feature on the splash apron behind the box and in front of the rear fender?  Grease fitting access for the spring shackle?  It is not on the roadster, either in the literature or on the car.

 

It is a battery box I think, and there is evidence that it was once there. Maybe a toolbox. I am looking for one.

 

The bump behind the battery box is clearance for the front shackle or hinge of the elliptic leaf springs. It exists on both sides. If there is an access plate there, I do not believe I have it. If I remember correctly those points use grease cups.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the radiator corners are not original. It could be a recore, all I know is it was not done since we had the car (circa 1962). On the other hand I have seen one other Model 25 with radiator corners like that.

 

The firewall strap attachment on the touring is part of the sidelamp bracket, and I have seen it on other tourings.

 

Where are the dry cells supposed to go in your roadster?

 

 

 

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Not sure if this helps but this is the side lamp p/n listing for Studebaker Models 20 & 30 and 1913-15

Scott

 

Thank you! I will have to dig out the parts list and see if the number is the same. I see there was a nickel option all the way back in 1912, but none shown for 1913.

[avantey]

So I went and looked up the serial number for my car   It is 312738.  Is there a list that tells me the production date or era?

[Stude Light]

1 hour ago, avantey said:

So I went and looked up the serial number for my car   It is 312738.  Is there a list that tells me the production date or era?

That serial number identifies it as a 1913 Model 25 SA 4 cylinder, 25 hp, 102" wheelbase car.

Range for that model/year is: 301,501 - 315,611

[Bloo]

5 hours ago, avantey said:

So I went and looked up the serial number for my car   It is 312738.  Is there a list that tells me the production date or era?

 

304736 here. I have not seen anything like that. Info seems to be really scarce on cars built before production was moved to South Bend.

[avantey]

Thank you Stude Light!  Means my car is in the second half of production but probably can't narrow it down more than that.

Bill

[Studenut1915]

Bloo

The oil site gauge simply has a hole in the top that oil flows  into and a hole in the bottom for outflow. On my car you can see the flow at an idle and the whole gauge fills with oil going down the road.

Pat

[mbstude]

Where is the serial number located on these cars?

[Bloo]

On a metal plate tacked to the firewall, engine compartment side, left side of car. Not sure if they put it anywhere else.

[mbstude]

The car we have with the home-built “body” has a plywood firewall. Guess we’ll never know the serial number.