Carlsbad Black Formula - Anyone have one or ideas?

[Dan O]

I am sure this black paint has been sprayed on many a member's car over the years.  Does anyone already have the source for the proper formula to replicate "correct" the factory Carlsbad Black?

 

I am no paint pro but I would suppose it's different for two-stage paint from single stage?  I know the gloss will be different.  I am looking to apply this to just my firewall and steering column right now.  The rest of the car will come later.  It appears to me those engine compartment areas are the same as the exterior paint from factory.

[retirednow]

I was an auto painter from 1973-1982. Unless Carlsbad black is a metallic color, non-metallic black paint was the same for any car, kinda like that song “black is black” by Los Bravos 😉

Edited August 3, 2020 by retirednow (see edit history)

[gdmn852]

Hello, probably a jet black would approximate the original Carlsbad Black ,oddly enough black does vary between manufacturers due to type of carbon black and how it is processed . I would make sure you use the same brand on your restoration. Good luck on it .

[Matt Harwood]

How about Vanta Black, the blackest man-made material ever created? Of course, parking it in the sun probably makes it smolder.

 

 

[Dan O]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

How about Vanta Black, the blackest man-made material ever created? Of course, parking it in the sun probably makes it smolder.

Ha - nice idea.  Expensive I am sure but nice.  I might go with BMW's lights behind the grill idea though!  I always wanted to light up the venta-ports like Ned Nickles did in 1948, so who knows.

[gdmn852]

Hello again,although my car is gray using the two step paint with clear on the interior pieces, dashboard,window moldings steering column, are also done in body color on a convertible as you know. I reduced the gloss to about 3/4 to replicate the unbuffed finish on these parts.

[NTX5467]

Have you investigated wiht www.tcpglobal.com for your correct-color paint?  If you can get regular acrylic enamel, then add "hardener" to it, you'll not need to be BCCC.

 

On the genuine BCCC colors, the full color is not correct until the LAST clear coat layer is applied.  On a single-stage (acrylic enamel, even with hardener), what you spray is what ou get.

 

There ARE lots of shades of black.  Depending upon the formulation.  A pinch of white, a pinch of brown, a pinch of ______, whatever.  Just as tehre are a multitude of shards of white, too!  GM white does not match Chrysler white or Ford white.

 

Check with tcpglobel and see what they can provide.  IF you can find a paint supply with an archived color chip chart book which has Carlsbad Black, then you can match that to a more modern paint that mixing pigments are available for, in your locale.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[retirednow]

All I can say is that we used to buy black acrylic lacquer by the gallon and could use it on literally any (non metallic) black car. No color code needed.  The only times I would deviate was using Glasso paint on VWs and BMWs for the sole reason that it would flow out so smooth that it would require little to no buffing. Oh, and one other time some guy brought his own nitrocellulose lacquer to paint a couple of fenders on a model A. But, that DuPont gloss black lacquer would have worked perfectly fine on any of these cars

[Dan O]

11 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

Have you investigated wiht www.tcpglobal.com for your correct-color paint?  If you can get regular acrylic enamel, then add "hardener" to it, you'll not need to be BCCC.

 

I did look there just now and see they have single stage paints available as well as BCCC paints and acrylic lacquer paints.  They have some old paint chip images but no cross-reference to modern paints I could find.  That did get me looking further and I found this site with cross-reference to PPG, etc:

 

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?make=Buick&con=yk&year=1949&page=1&rows=50 

 

Very useful paint resource site I think.  They do not list Carlsbad Black for 1949 but do for 1950 - Ditzler PPG 9100, Acme Rogers 700.  I imagine Carlsbad Black in 1949 is the same formula as 1950 Buicks, right?

[lancemb]

On 8/3/2020 at 10:20 AM, Dan O said:

I am sure this black paint has been sprayed on many a member's car over the years.  Does anyone already have the source for the proper formula to replicate "correct" the factory Carlsbad Black?

 

I am no paint pro but I would suppose it's different for two-stage paint from single stage?  I know the gloss will be different.  I am looking to apply this to just my firewall and steering column right now.  The rest of the car will come later.  It appears to me those engine compartment areas are the same as the exterior paint from factory.

I have some leftover Carlsbad black in Enamel if you are interested.  PM me if so.

[dei]

Shoot!

So my Limited with an older repaint will be difficult to match the existing black paint when I have the fenders redone? 

 

What would the chance be Lance that paint would match?

[Matt Harwood]

Black is easy to match and one of the more forgiving paints to work with. As always, my advice is not to use a "formula" to match something that already exists but rather to get the paint on the car measured and custom paint mixed to match it. They can account for fading and age and it should look great.

If you're starting from scratch for a full repaint, just pick a black. Nobody will ever be able to discern if it's the ACTUAL black that was on there originally because there's simply no way to know. If you want a more vintage look, go with a single stage paint rather than base/clear, which will give you a more authentic shine.

[lancemb]

25 minutes ago, dei said:

Shoot!

So my Limited with an older repaint will be difficult to match the existing black paint when I have the fenders redone? 

 

What would the chance be Lance that paint would match?

Yeah, pretty much black is black.  Is your older repaint enamel?  If so I might have enough left to do your fenders.

[dei]

58 minutes ago, lancemb said:

Yeah, pretty much black is black.  Is your older repaint enamel?  If so I might have enough left to do your fenders.

 

Sending you a PM Lance

[Frank DuVal]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:21 PM, retirednow said:

All I can say is that we used to buy black acrylic lacquer by the gallon and could use it on literally any (non metallic) black car. No color code needed.  The only times I would deviate was using Glasso paint on VWs and BMWs for the sole reason that it would flow out so smooth that it would require little to no buffing. Oh, and one other time some guy brought his own nitrocellulose lacquer to paint a couple of fenders on a model A. But, that DuPont gloss black lacquer would have worked perfectly fine on any of these cars

 

That explains your comment. If you were a PPG man, you would know there were two black lacquers, DDL9000 for all cars except GM, where you used DDL9300.😉  DDL9300 was slightly Blacker. This time period was late 60s to early 80s.

 

Check autocolor library, it shows the difference in part number.  Raven black on Ford is DDL9000, Tuxedo Black on Chevrolet is DDL9300.

 

I think I still have a gallon of Duco 44, black nitrocelulose lacquer. We used it for years over-diluted as a guide coat.😲

[Dan O]

I shared the paint code numbers from paintref.com with the friendly folks at Scott-Day Paints in Houston.  The Ditzler PPG number of 9100 for 1950 Buicks on that site is outdated still and does not match current codes.  They called PPG and did find that those old numbers for Carlsbad Black match current PPG 9000.  So, there ya go.

[buick man]

Dan O ... black is not just another black there are differences.  IF you want exactness and are science minded because after all paint is chemistry, one has to look not at the name a particular color is given but rather at the actual mix ratio formula itself and discern the Toners/Tints used in combination to achieve the overall desired perceived finished saturation ( Color ).  Changing the percentages or even adding or eliminating a particular toner/tint can change everything subtle or acutely.   For example Dupont's formulation of   single stage urethane  for the OEM color code "Chrysler Black "  uses brown base toners/tints and the end product when compared side by side  to a true black like Duponts  Centari Pitch Black Acrylic Enamel 99A which uses no browns is not a true black like 99A.  

 

Your Buick used lacquer on the firewall as well as the rest of the car originally from the factory.  If you are serious about replicating exactness to factory finish like for example the Corvette Club crowd does, then my suggestion would be to take a look at the Dupont Centari 99A enamel as reference above.  An enamel can be massaged to appear like lacquer as can a single stage urethane both of which chemically in a sense come from an acrylic  base.  99A overall density renders a complete solid black.  Also noteworthy as eluded to by Matt above is that an informed individual cannot compare a base coat / clear coat finish to that of single stage finish be it enamel or urethane or lacquer and at the end of the day still call it a match.  Diving further into this for example, urethane based chemistry in simple terms allows the resin to kinda float to the top of the finish to achieve a faux like clear coat protective effect and appearance while in a bc/cc system the clear is completely separate application product just like the clear applied on finger nails, bar tops etc and is all about shine and protection only rendering no aid to hue, tone or depth or saturation of color  as the flat base coat cannot contribute to that effect either but for only density of tone.   An Enamel has a completely different chemistry and the result is a condensed color tone and in addition results in a deep hue and saturation of color.  Lacquer goes even further in both saturation, tone and hue achieving a deep "pond like "  true depth that one could almost fall or dive into if possible and renders a finish to an extent dependent in part to the matrix number of properly applied coats.  It is easy to apply and extremely easy to color match and to correct and repair.  Lacquer paint allows the same light refraction and saturation to that of expensive true china plate and serving ware.  The color perceived goes deep and continues into the substrate.

 

Another aspect of color matching involves the use of Flattening Agents to a paint.  These silica based compounds serve to deflect and scatter light hitting the surface thereby diffusing the shine.  They float to the outer mill surface eventually during cure and reside there.  Care in the amount and area where applying flattened paints should be considered since any type of intentional applied rubbing, compounding or abrasion upon the service thereafter will in effect remove them from the finish rendering the surface to shine once again.  Flattening agents also soften the cured surface and render a less " Pencil Hardness " durability to the finished cured coat making scratching and markings and ability to keep the surface clean more problematic.

 

This is why painting ones Classic with a bc/cc simply does not in the end match color hue, tone and saturation original factory correctness and why these paint jobs render a completely different look to classics from the factory.  It is akin to wearing latex clear gloves or not.  It is not a subtle difference,   If a car today that is a newly lacquer painted classic is stored in a covered garage then the age old complaint of fading lacquer paint is a mute point.  Even with decades of exposure go take a stroll in an old salvage yard notice how the factory lacquer paint jobs still hold up.  Rub the haze off the surface and note the shine.   Another fable often parroted over and over again is that lacquer checks and cracks over time.  This is true yet was started only because from the result of lacquer repaint jobs that were hands-down improperly prepared and most importantly improperly applied in terms of corner cutting application methods rendering overly applied "hosed on" mill thickness, incorrect recoating times and temperature.

 

[Frank DuVal]

On 8/8/2020 at 1:56 PM, buick man said:

 Another fable often parroted over and over again is that lacquer checks and cracks over time.  This is true yet was started only because from the result of lacquer repaint jobs that were hands-down improperly prepared and most importantly improperly applied in terms of corner cutting application methods rendering overly applied "hosed on" mill thickness, incorrect recoating times and temperature.

 

My low miles (38K) one owner 64 Corvair had checked paint on the top surfaces (especially the roof and trunk lid). All factory applied Magic Mirror Lacquer! I talked with the  original owner a lot, and also had all the records, no mention of body repair.

 

I did strip it and repaint it with black lacquer (DDL 9300). What a sharp looking car!😉