The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[SC38dls]

Well I guess C19 AND a hurricane are valid reasons. If it were only one of these we would have to really think if it was an excuse or a valid reason. 
Hope you have a good uneventful trip. Is it 840 one way or round trip?  From/ to where?  
Be safe   
dave s 

 

just reread and saw 840 each way. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here is a link to coachbuilt with lots of details on the body builder of my car.......and it actually mentions my body style.......neat!

I have worked on and driven Rubay coachwork on other brand chassis, Loco and Model A Duesenberg. Spent a fair amount of time on the Loco.....just played around with the A for a half hour.

 

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/r/rubay/rubay.htm

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

21 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Well I guess C19 AND a hurricane are valid reasons. If it were only one of these we would have to really think if it was an excuse or a valid reason. 
Hope you have a good uneventful trip. Is it 840 one way or round trip?  From/ to where?  
Be safe   
dave s 

 

just reread and saw 840 each way. 

 

840 each way from Palm Beach Fl to the Blue Ridge Mountains midway through Virginia. 13 hours nonstop. I may just take an entire day to kick tires before he head south.......weather, traffic, and COVID calling the shots. I will post video and shots along the way.......

[Guest]

3 hours ago, carbking said:

 

One of the reasons I have been as successful as I have, is to listen to the engineers.

Well said.  Some people here do not like anecdotal stories so I will only say that while I worked in Parts at a Buick Cadillac dealer the shop foreman who thought he was a better engineer than GM's people twice times caused the dealership a lot of fuss and bother and cost himself thousands of dollars and ended up with  two cars that were terrible to drive.

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, nickelroadster said:

Nobody has mentioned if they knew of any other monobloc T-heads with four valves per cyl.  I am also unaware of any other cars that used ball or roller bearings this late.  I always wondered how well engines lasted with this kind of bearings.  Ed, you might need to hire someone just to take pictures of all the special features on this car and post them.  I am looking forward to seeing all the good stuff on this car.

 

Come on down when it’s running and drive it for a while.............always willing to share my cars with people who know how to drive them properly.

Edited August 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Well let me know the instant it is ready!  I appreciate the invite.

[BearsFan315]

very nice find and score... really like the older open touring cars

 

really cool to see a car like that show up close by  I will be out that way next weekend !! going out to help family for a day or two.

Edited August 4, 2020 by BearsFan315 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

5 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

According to Wikipedia the first (1908) White gas car was based on a French Delahaye. Do you know anything of this?

 

" The White steamer used unique technology, and it was vulnerable in a market that was accepting the internal combustion engine as the standard. White canvassed existing gas manufacturers and licensed the rights to the Delahaye design for the "gas car", showing a chassis at an English auto show in December 1908. "

 

In one of the old Horseless Carriage Club Gazete's there is a article detailing the Delahaye connection.  Early 1970's I believe.  

 

Greg

[Restorer32]

Did your car come from an old collection in Louissa, Virginia?

[trimacar]

2 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Did your car come from an old collection in Louissa, Virginia?

That’s an interesting question, but I don’t remember seeing it in Bill Pettit’s building.  It could have been there, though, huge building with about 100 cars, no room to walk between them they were packed so tight....

 

Ed, I’m sure you’ll get some history from Bob the seller as to where he acquired it...

[edinmass]

The car was found in upstate New York. It was there since the 40's(And probably was sold there new.), and remained in upstate till 2003 or 2004. Many interesting questions to ponder..........why pay 4800 dollars for this particular car? Pierce was the big name in New York State.........and had plenty of service dealers in the area. With such low milage, I bet it came from one of the Adirondack estates and used as a summer car. It's was common back in the 60's and 70's to find big expensive cars still sitting in barns and garages in the elite vacation areas.....Poconos, Adirondack's, Maine coast, Saratoga. They were called "camp cars" and often used for twenty years or more till WWII put them up on blocks. I have seen this 100 times over the years with V-16 Cadillac's, Crane-Simplex, Pierce Arrow, and a bunch of others. These cars were the early "barn finds" that Austin Clark, Richard Paine, and the other great early collectors were in search of. No one wanted to restore cars back then......they wanted to just clean them up and get it running. The restoration part of the hobby came later. Ever see a late 30's VMCCA video? Cars were driven on the field testing operator skill on a see saw, and "go slow" competitions. Things are always evolving in the hobby, and they will continue to do so. 

 

I still remember old timers talking about a cars value based on one thing.........whether or not you could buy tires for it. No tires available? Was it easy to change the wheels? No? Car is not worth anything regardless of year, make or model. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

It's was common back in the 60's and 70's to find big expensive cars still sitting in barns and garages in the elite vacation areas.....Poconos, Adirondack's, Maine coast, Saratoga. They were called "camp cars" and often used for twenty years or more till WWII put them up on blocks.

Right in my stomping grounds.  The last one I knew of and tried half heartedly to get because I was told the family will never sell it,  was a 1929? Packard Roadster sitting in a garage so grown up you couldn't see it from the road and they actually had to build a road in to get it out.  I did find a 39 Buick convertible that I bought this way more recently,  not far down the road,  but I fear most of the finds are now gone as land became more valuable and generations changed out so the estates got sold and cleaned out.  My High school shop teacher found many cars,  though mostly 30's and up this way up into the 80's and early 90's.   

As usual I just missed the golden age as I wasn't born until 1974.  My father always liked cars but never managed to have much in the way of old cars,  though he followed me on many adventures looking for them when I got old enough (in my teens) to have a few pennies from mowing lawns and become a serious old car guy, chasing down all sorts of old junk.  It was always fun going to look at some old relic,  even if it was too far gone to drag home.   Alot has changed since the net.  Back then you had to experience it in person.  Now with the web,  you can do it from your desk.  But it's not the same. 

I remember once going down the lake in the winter (early spring). on a 4 wheeler via a muddy road that you couldn't drive a car on,  Then walking the last 2 miles as it was a foot trail through the woods (the ice wasn't safe enough) to look at an old "Woody" wagon I had been told about in a shed off a barn.  It ended up being a model A tudor someone had cut down and put a wood bed in,  but it sure was a fun trip and lots of anticipation and excitement as to what it could be.  The camp caretaker didn't know what it was and just said it was an old car. I ended up with it in the end and we brought it out on a barge in the summer as the only roads to the camp had grown over years earlier and it was then boat access only.  I heard of other great cars that were around in the 60's and 70's but they were all gone by the time I came of age. 

Maybe there is one last undiscovered treasure in the region I can still chase down.  Dad is still around and doing fine.  It would be a fun trip to have him go along again.

 

Sorry Ed,  Looks Like I stole your thread.

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Back in the 80s I heard of an antique car being discovered at an old summer place. There was no  road access to the place, the owners got to it by boat.  The buyer of the car waited until winter, put the car on skis and towed it out over the frozen lake with a couple of snowmobiles.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Many antique stationary engines have come out of that area. They were used to power electric generators for homes not on the grid.

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

Right in my stomping grounds.  The last one I knew of and tried half heartedly to get because I was told the family will never sell it,  was a 1929? Packard Roadster sitting in a garage so grown up you couldn't see it from the road and they actually had to build a road in to get it out.  I did find a 39 Buick convertible that I bought this way more recently,  not far down the road,  but I fear most of the finds are now gone as land became more valuable and generations changed out so the estates got sold and cleaned out.  My High school shop teacher found many cars,  though mostly 30's and up this way up into the 80's and early 90's.   

As usual I just missed the golden age as I wasn't born until 1974.  My father always liked cars but never managed to have much in the way of old cars,  though he followed me on many adventures looking for them when I got old enough (in my teens) to have a few pennies from mowing lawns and become a serious old car guy, chasing down all sorts of old junk.  It was always fun going to look at some old relic,  even if it was too far gone to drag home.   Alot has changed since the net.  Back then you had to experience it in person.  Now with the web,  you can do it from your desk.  But it's not the same. 

I remember once going down the lake in the winter (early spring). on a 4 wheeler via a muddy road that you couldn't drive a car on,  Then walking the last 2 miles as it was a foot trail through the woods (the ice wasn't safe enough) to look at an old "Woody" wagon I had been told about in a shed off a barn.  It ended up being a model A tudor someone had cut down and put a wood bed in,  but it sure was a fun trip and lots of anticipation and excitement as to what it could be.  The camp caretaker didn't know what it was and just said it was an old car. I ended up with it in the end and we brought it out on a barge in the summer as the only roads to the camp had grown over years earlier and it was then boat access only.  I heard of other great cars that were around in the 60's and 70's but they were all gone by the time I came of age. 

Maybe there is one last undiscovered treasure in the region I can still chase down.  Dad is still around and doing fine.  It would be a fun trip to have him go along again.

 

Sorry Ed,  Looks Like I stole your thread.

 

 

I am over 15 years older than you and in my area 99% of the really good long term , tucked away cars had been "discovered " at least a decade or more before my teen years.  If you didn't find it in the 1950's , very early 1960's chances are someone else did. As a teen I got to know a few of the area's early car hunters, and most 

bagged their best finds in the 1950's. One or two have turned up more recently; a Stutz Speedway 6 about 10 years ago for example, but only a handful since the mid 1960's. there were some great early cars in the Vancouver B.C. area { have a look at the Vancouver Public Library archive }; nothing like New York of course, but only a tiny number 

survived the decades. I believed in the fantasy that I too would find a dusty gem in the garage of a decaying , stately Shaughnessy home { Vancouver's ritzy area }  but by the mid 1970's I was already two decades too late.

 

There were a good number of British sports cars in Vancouver area back yards in the mid to late 1970's. It was this fact that prompted me to shift my focus from more or less impossible { for me }  to obtain  early cars, to cars I could actually find and buy. Thus began  my MGA,  TR3, TVR, Lotus and similar saga.

 

It was great to see the early cars at events my father and I would attend. But ownership of a running , early car evades me to this day.  The old guard of early car owners I met in my teens are largely  now gone, but prices for decent ,early cars remains high in my area.

 

 

 

Greg

Edited August 4, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

CONGRATULATIONS !!!

[edinmass]

Greg.......I have pulled out great stuff in every decade..........Not just neat or interesting. Last year I pulled out a top twenty American car out of a barn........yes, a top 20 of every American car ever built. I didn’t find it, or get the deal done, I was the lucky skilled guy sent to recover it under very, very difficult circumstances. The same weekend someone landed a 1933 Packard 12 Individual Custom Dietrich Convertible Coupe, that had been lost to time since 1958. I was chasing that one also. There are still great cars out there.....like  the 1910 Pierce 48 touring car I have been after since the early 80’s. It was parked in 1941, and hasn’t moved yet. I have been on it through two generations..........and I’m still trying. Haven’t landed it yet........yet. You need to kick over five hundred rocks to get a chance at an interesting car. I had no intention of buying a car this month, or year, and I just landed that very interesting White Touring car. You need to run EVERY LEAD down.......no matter how trivial. Often there are multiple cars at locations...........a few years ago I chased a great car for a customer........when I arrived there were twenty more cars there. I bought the customer car and four others for myself. It actual work finding cars.......they DO NOT fall in your lap. It’s hard work.

Edited August 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Greg.......I have pulled out great stuff in every decade..........Not just neat or interesting. Last year I pulled out a top twenty American car out of a barn........yes, a top 20 of every American car ever built. I didn’t find it, or get the deal done, I was the lucky skilled guy sent to recover it under very, very difficult circumstances. The same weekend someone landed a 1933 Packard 12 Individual Custom Dietrich Convertible Coupe, that had been lost to time since 1958. I was chasing that one also. There are still great cars out there.....like  the 1910 Pierce 48 touring car I have been after since the early 80’s. It was parked in 1941, and hasn’t moved yet. I have been on it through two generations..........and I’m still trying. Haven’t landed it yet........yet. You need to kick over five hundred rocks to get a chance at an interesting car. I had no intention of buying a car this month, or year, and I just landed that very interesting White Touring car. You need to run EVERY LEAD down.......no matter how trivial. Often there are multiple cars at locations...........a few years ago I chased a great car for a customer........when I arrived there were twenty more cars there. I bought the customer car and four others for myself. It actual work finding cars.......they DO NOT fall in your lap. It’s hard work.

 

All I can say Ed is that your hunting ground has a lot more game than my area. I don't doubt what you are saying at all, just that there is 1500 - 2000 miles between where you are looking and where I am. Possibly there is still a great car or even two 

hiding within my potential range, but I doubt all the stars and planets will line up for me like they sometime do for you. Like I said,  in the last decade I am only aware of that Stutz being freed from deep slumber.

And there are plenty of people locally looking. Eventually there is one stash that may give up some cars to local buyers. I have never seen it; very few have, but I am told by people who should know that a certain local

character has been feeding good cars into his personal black hole for a few decades. What is there only time will tell. Whether any of it stays local remains to be seen. Like I have mentioned before

relatively few local buyers can compete if the game is being played with Greenbacks or Euro's . Myself especially.

 

I am not down playing or overlooking your point about putting in the hard work of looking. I really don't need another car. And my searches are superficial compared to yours .   But I know others around here are using the same sort of search vigor you are recomending. As far as I am aware , apart from the odd  31 Plymouth or the like not much has come to light for some time

 

Greg, always hopeful in Canada

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Must be Mass, Most of Florida was unpopulated in the 40's.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Must be Mass, Most of Florida was unpopulated in the 40's.

When your on the hunt, you gotta go where the game is! I have had great luck in Michigan, and good luck in Pennsylvania. Also very strange places like Montana. You never know where the hobby will take you. Green Bay was also interesting. 

[Restorer32]

When I embark on a car hunting adventure and wife asks  "When will you be home"?  I always tell her  "We are going on an adventure and you cannot put a time limit on adventures.  They have to run their course". 

[edinmass]

49 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

When I embark on a car hunting adventure and wife asks  "When will you be home"?  I always tell her  "We are going on an adventure and you cannot put a time limit on adventures.  They have to run their course". 

 

 

The only question when you go on a car adventure is.............are you falling in a bed of roses, or falling into a septic tank...............seems there are many more septic tanks than beds of roses. 

[Terry Bond]

That's a great car! I've long been a fan of the Whites, both steam and gas..Nickel era right now seems to be about where 50s cars were several years ago when few wanted them. It really fuels interest when special events like the AACA Sentimental tour was created for the 50s era. AACA Vintage tour would be perfect for your White. Next year's your will be combined with the Reliability tour that was cancelled this year.

As for your clock. It should turn up at Hershey as I've seen several there previously. Love Oldsmobike and Cadillac script white faced clocks, it's something that seems to have enough saved when the cars were scrapped. I recall seeing a few installed into White trucks as well. I believe the clocks were made by New Haven.

Terry

[Paul Dobbin]

We have a local friend with a unrestored 1923 White 1 ton flatbed truck, which looks like the Speedster in earlier post.  He has a calliopy on the back and it's the only

music in our 4th of July parade.  He also has a 1924 White Yellowstone Tour Bus, it often see, touring on the Blue Ridge Parkway. full of old car nuts. (Me included)

As implied in my tag line, I don't collect clocks either.

[edinmass]

Thanks Terry. The reason we see so many clocks........the Boy Scouts had a “make your father a Father’s Day gift” by going to the junk yard, and making a wooden stand for any clock you could find...........so there has always been more clocks than cars in the modern era.  

Edited August 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

When your on the hunt, you gotta go where the game is! I have had great luck in Michigan, and good luck in Pennsylvania. Also very strange places like Montana. You never know where the hobby will take you. Green Bay was also interesting. 

My Studebaker (Not of the rarity your White and other cars are of course) was from a barn in NW Pennsylvania up on blocks for 42 years. So there are some good cars still out there. The paint is still original but we rebuilt all mechanicals and had to put new material on the seats. It’s my daily driver. Every time you got out of it you had to brush your backside off of the old stuff. 
dave s 

[padgett]

Had a Jag XK. Every time you got out on a hot day, the back of a white shirt would be red.

[edinmass]

UPDATE:

 

I spoke to a owner of several White vehicles today. He’s a multi generation brass/pre WWI car guy. His collection is diverse and interesting. From an early Packard Twin Six, several Whites, and others which for privacy I will not disclose. He owns two of the four known 16 Valve White platforms. One is a 15/16 Town Car......,date uncertain, but a test platform pre production car. He also has a duplicate engine, which is missing the chassis from my understanding. The good news, he is currently rebuilding the spare motor going into his speedster project, and he will be sending me photos of it apart tonight, which I will share IF he gives permission, and my guess is it’s a 50/50 chance. I was able to find out driving Characteristics of the standard 4-40 two valve earlier motor.....which he also has, and a long detailed report about his 16 Valve closed car......which, is 5400 pounds........quite heavy, and certainly heavier than my current project by 20 percent off the top of my head. He confirmed that almost no White gas car is identical to any other, as many running changes and improvements were done along the way. He was raving about the engine and chassis. Stated it’s cold blooded but when it warm up,  he says there isn’t anything better running down the road. He extensively tours his White along side all the big stuff........and he was especially clear he was keeping up with a Thomas Flyer without any issue, and the car runs out at 55 mph comfortably and safely. His concern on driving faster was the weight of his car and his ability to stop safely. Although it’s a three speed with an overdrive, he regularly only used second and third in town, and only finds overdrive on the open roads. He said the car easily pulls away from a light in second. He was also very clear that you can take off in third and not realize it.........so it’s apparently a torque monster. He also communicated that the clutch works great(oil bath disk) and it’s a “personality” shifter that takes a bit of a learning curve to master. Having had White cars in his family for decades, he had heard of rumors of the car I found but the “White guys” didn’t know where it was. He was generous with his time, and very helpful. Makes me feel even better about the recent “jump off the cliff”. Looks like I will leave a week from today to start the recovery process. Unfortunately my trusty side kick is unable to go with me. So, I will be solo Unless something changes........so I will add an extra day to the trip. If I get photos tonight that are ok to post, I will put them up right away. Best, Ed.

Edited August 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

Exciting stuff!  first comment on this thread, but I've been following since the beginning.  Thanks for sharing this recent cool update.  Glad you two got in contact.  This thread has my attention way more than anything on TV!

[edinmass]

Kevin F was a great help putting me in touch with the other owner.........

 

 

Thanks Kevin!

[Ivan Saxton]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 11:35 AM, edinmass said:

The more common 4 cyl   monoblock with 4 valves per cylinder is Stutz, starting wit probably the S series in 1918 Ian Smith said his was a special SX, which had a six and a half inch stroke.   Some people think the non-detacheable head continued till the end of K series in 1921; but my K engine has a detacheable cylinder head like the KDH

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

it’s a “personality” shifter that takes a bit of a learning curve to master.

 

My experience has been that most antique automobiles are! Of course since my interest has always been mostly pre 1930, and I have owned and driven a fair number of various model Ts with all sorts of era auxiliary transmissions. I have also found that 'regular" cars of that era vary greatly in how they shift. So many types and designs of clutches, transmissions with square cut gears and no synchronization of any sort. Add a "mile-long" intake manifold and a motor has a very slow response time to speed changes that can make things really interesting. Some require quick shifts, others want a "three count" pause passing through neutral. And I love them all!

[J.H.Boland]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

The reason we see so many clocks........the Boy Scouts had a “make your father a Father’s Day gift” by going to the junk yard, and making a wooden stand for any clock you could find...........so there has always been more clocks than cars in the modern era.  

 

A fellow came into our dealership years ago wondering if anyone might be interested in an old clock.He was directed to me.It was apparently originally in a '16 McLaughlin Buick. There's likely a White clock out there somewhere.

[kfle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Kevin F was a great help putting me in touch with the other owner.........

 

 

Thanks Kevin!

This is what the hobby is all about.   He is a great guy and very knowledgable.  He has been enjoying playing around with my Coles as well and has been a great help.  Glad you two connected!

 

I can tell you from first hand observation that White engine is a powerhouse. 

[just me]

Ed

Congratulations on your recent find and allowing us to follow along. 

 

My friend Don has a 1915 White touring car with a California top. His father purchased the car in 1953. It's a 30 h.p. car. 

 

The motor has a compression release that moves the camshaft. When his son Chad was young maybe 8 years old. Don would use the compression release and little Chad would crank start the White. People around the car were amazed a little guy could crank start the big White. Don's about ready to pass the car onto Chad now. 

 

Best of success on your trip. Don't let a little water and a simple virus alter your plans. Never stopped you before.

 

Kindest regards

Charley

[SC38dls]

Ed, it’s not the jump of the cliff that hurts. It’s the landing!  Kind of like the guy that fell off the 20 story building. At 19 of the floors he was heard saying “So far so good” 
 

Have fun, this is going to be a great ride. 
Best of all we are getting to go along vicariously. 

dave s 

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, J.H.Boland said:

 

A fellow came into our dealership years ago wondering if anyone might be interested in an old clock.He was directed to me.It was apparently originally in a '16 McLaughlin Buick. There's likely a White clock out there somewhere.

 

I am curious about your clock. What  make is it ? Unfortunately when I try to enlarge your photo it gets too fuzzy to read.

I know where there is a 1918 McLaughlin 6 - 45 Special  that is missing its clock.

Greg

Edited August 6, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

On the matter of the 4 speed gearbox with overdrive top gear,  a lot of the detail in the photos I have seen yet of your gearbox is suggestive of the Brown-Lipe overdrive top gearbox often used in conjunction with Rochester Duesenberg engine in Roamer, Revere, Meteor, and similar.   Changjng between 2nd and direct is tricky because of the compound movement due to the funny pattern;  but changes between direct and overdrive of 1 to 1 1/4 are a delight because you just hit the clutch and push the stick in either direction without need to double de-clutch.     I usually take interested guests for a short run up and down between home and the workshop shed a few times. The engine will pull in overdrive on a light throttle about 100yards up the track which has about a 5 degree incline.  I will not make the car ready for road use until the brakes are good enough.    Is it possible that the later T-head Mercer Raceabouts with a 4 speed gearbox may have used a Brown-Lipe overdrive  box..  The Series Six Mercers whjch used the 6 cylinder Rochester-Trego engine used a 3 speed Brown-Lipe gearbox, effectively the same as Pierce Arrow model 80.  When I told Bernie Weis that he checked with Otto K., because apparently because most PAS owners may have assumed that Pierce Arrow made their own gearboxes before the straight eights.

[edinmass]

Ivan, I’m familiar with the Pierce Series 80 transmissions. If the White uses a Brown-Lipe unit I should be able to recognize their product, but I did ask the owner of four Whites about it, and he indicated that the transmission was a White manufactured product. Photos of the disassembled engine will be coming this morning, as the owner of the speedster engine had an issue with his Packard on a ride yesterday afternoon, so he didn’t make it over to his shop. Being a Pierce fan, and now a White enthusiast.........it made me smile just a bit!

[J.H.Boland]

9 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

I am curious about your clock. What  make is it ? Unfortunately when I try to enlarge your photo it gets too fuzzy to read.

I know where there is a 1918 McLaughlin 6 - 45 Special  that is missing its clock.

Greg

 

Hi Greg.It's a New Haven eight day clock.

Jim