The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[1912Staver]

43 minutes ago, edinmass said:

No clue.......since every late model White has a different ignition system, there is no hard and fast rule. Interested in hearing your thoughts, I expected it to have an Eisemann unit on it.......car is very unmolested.........and the bracket holding it in looks factory to me. Thoughts?

 

 

The mounting shouldn't be different, the impulse is at the drive end and makes the mag. slightly longer. You would just have to shorten the drive shaft by the appropriate amount. 

Actually the photo you posted does not look like a impulse mag. 

Greg

Edited August 16, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[kfle]

36 minutes ago, edinmass said:

So, I admit to driving a lot of strange stuff......and rarely ever have a problem.....this shifting pattern will be a challenge.........

That is the same exact shifting pattern and plate on the 1915 White town car.   I had a chance to really check out that car yesterday as the owner had it out for a drive,  An amazing machine.  

[wayne sheldon]

One of the auxiliary transmissions I had in a model T speedster some years back (I don't recall which one at the moment?), had underdrive where your 2nd is, direct where your direct is, and overdrive where your 4th is located. Not entirely unlike your White's shift pattern. I very quickly got used to that upside-down "U" at the bottom of the H for shifting from low to direct. And throwing the lever full forward for overdrive became like "FULL SPEED AHEAD!!! I suspect you will adjust to it very quickly.

[auburnseeker]

Amazing the interior is so good in it.  It has the same charm as some of the old carriages in local northeast museums that have never been touched.  

Are there bottom cushions for the rear seat or just the caned bottoms?

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

No clue.......since every late model White has a different ignition system, there is no hard and fast rule. Interested in hearing your thoughts, I expected it to have an Eisemann unit on it.......car is very unmolested.........and the bracket holding it in looks factory to me. Thoughts?

 

 

By 1917 impulse starters were commonplace. What make mag is it? I've seen a National Archives photo of the testing room at American Bosch for impulse starters. The first impulse starter was patented by Unterberg & Helme (U&H Magneto) about 1908. They called it the "snap starter".  I think that the Bosch system of having a separate starting coil, the "Bosch Dual Magneto" with a starting and running position on the switch was a work-around to avoid the U&H patents - U&H did have a US patent on their system. By 1917 that had been accomplished because the U&H patent would not have run out until around 1920-22. Another possibility is that because U&H was a German company, it is likely that all their patents were seized by the Alien Property Custodian when WWI started. That's the genesis of the American Bosch company - the assets of the German company were seized and sold so American Bosch was not the American outlet of the German company. The same thing happened with Bayer Asprin... the American company bought the rights to the name during WWI.

 

I also notice that the crankshaft has balance weights on it. That's a real sign of high quality work. Their value was understood but practically all the makers did without them because it was so much more expensive. It was cheaper to de-tune the engine so it wouldn't over rev...It will be interesting to see if they are forged in one piece with the crank or bolted on. I think the bolted-on type came earlier. I know I've seen them illustrated c1910.

Edited August 17, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

36 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

Amazing the interior is so good in it.  It has the same charm as some of the old carriages in local northeast museums that have never been touched.  

Are there bottom cushions for the rear seat or just the caned bottoms?

All the seat bottoms were removed to clean the car the rear seat is like new, as is the passenger seat, driver seat has some issues, but will be repaired and survive. The cane work is a door for storage under the back seat for side curtain irons. The driver seat looks like it was damaged by children playing chauffeur.......I admit I did it in a Pierce Arrow back in the 60’s. Not intentionally......but bouncing up and down on them didn’t help. I’m quite certain the car will sort rather easily......as long as there is no bad rods or broken pistons. It really hasn’t ran since the 40’s except one try in 1952/3. If I had one week full time to put into it......it would be on the road. If zi had a good mag in hand, it would run tomorrow. I will push it outside and make a video tomorrow with all the seats in place, and go over the entire car. Ed

Edited August 17, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

17 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

By 1917 impulse starters were commonplace. What make mag is it? I've seen a National Archives photo of the testing room at American Bosch for impulse starters. The first impulse starter was patented by Unterberg & Helme (U&H Magneto) about 1908. They called it the "snap starter".  I think that the Bosch system of having a separate starting coil, the "Bosch Dual Magneto" with a starting and running position on the switch was a work-around to avoid the U&H patents - U&H did have a US patent on their system. By 1917 that had been accomplished because the U&H patent would not have run out until around 1920-22. Another possibility is that because U&H was a German company, it is likely that all their patents were seized by the Alien Property Custodian when WWI started. That's the genesis of the American Bosch company - the assets of the German company were seized and sold so American Bosch was not the American outlet of the German company. The same thing happened with Bayer Asprin... the American company bought the rights to the name during WWI.

 

I also notice that the crankshaft has balance weights on it. That's a real sign of high quality work. Their value was understood but practically all the makers did without them because it was so much more expensive. It was cheaper to de-tune the engine so it wouldn't over rev...It will be interesting to see if they are forged in one piece with the crank or bolted on. I think the bolted-on type came earlier. I know I've seen them illustrated c1910.

Bosch DU-4......maybe I am mistaken and it’s not a impulse set up on it.......sure looks like it to me, I have not taken it apart yet. Trying to figure out a plan. Best, Ed

[1912Staver]

32 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 

By 1917 impulse starters were commonplace. What make mag is it? I've seen a National Archives photo of the testing room at American Bosch for impulse starters. The first impulse starter was patented by Unterberg & Helme (U&H Magneto) about 1908. They called it the "snap starter".  I think that the Bosch system of having a separate starting coil, the "Bosch Dual Magneto" with a starting and running position on the switch was a work-around to avoid the U&H patents - U&H did have a US patent on their system. By 1917 that had been accomplished because the U&H patent would not have run out until around 1920-22. Another possibility is that because U&H was a German company, it is likely that all their patents were seized by the Alien Property Custodian when WWI started. That's the genesis of the American Bosch company - the assets of the German company were seized and sold so American Bosch was not the American outlet of the German company. The same thing happened with Bayer Asprin... the American company bought the rights to the name during WWI.

 

I also notice that the crankshaft has balance weights on it. That's a real sign of high quality work. Their value was understood but practically all the makers did without them because it was so much more expensive. It was cheaper to de-tune the engine so it wouldn't over rev...It will be interesting to see if they are forged in one piece with the crank or bolted on. I think the bolted-on type came earlier. I know I've seen them illustrated c1910.

 

I agree about the dates you quote, but by 1917 virtually all automobiles had electric starters and HT coil ignition. Even on earlier brass era cars I 

don't recall seeing a impulse style mag. D 4's , DU4's regular and  Dual and duplex, yes they were often found on automobiles. But the

only impulse mags I come across seem to be from hand crank only engines. That is the purpose of the impulse feature after all, a nice hot spark at a very low rotational speed.

If you have a starter motor, the impulse feature is a largely unnecessary complication.

Greg

Edited August 17, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

23 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Bosch DU-4......maybe I am mistaken and it’s not a impulse set up on it.......sure looks like it to me, I have not taken it apart yet. Trying to figure out a plan. Best, Ed

 

The impulse will be at the other end. I will see if I can find a picture.

 

 

 

...Here is a DU4 with an impulse. It is the drum shaped part right where the drive connects.

Greg

Edited August 17, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

One odd shift pattern I work with on occasion has 1st  right and down, 2nd left and up, 3rd left and down and reverse right and up opposite 1st.

 

Ed, your new automobile is like a treasure box being opened. Amazing!

[edinmass]

I don’t often work on mags, and the ones I have worked on were much earlier.......much. Who is the go to guy on rebuilding them today? There must be a guy who specializes in them. I would like to get it turned around in a week. If I have to, I will do it myself and send for magnets.  Moments needed and welcomed. Best, Ed

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

3 hours ago, George Cole said:

Enlarged and rotated.

 

 

 

Thanks Eddie, my neck really "Thanks You" even more!!!

Edited August 17, 2020 by 34LaSalleClubSedan (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Wow!!!

That car is fabulous.  In some of the ways it looks quite modern for 1917.  I think I would have some new carpet made and preserve the old stuff.  You should probably sell tickets for rides.  It has probably been said earlier but I must have missed it if it was.  Do we know how much this car cost when new?  Is all that upholstery leather?  You need to get a couple of gallons of conditioner.  Probably takes a litlle practice to shift from second to third.

[Ken_P]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

So, I admit to driving a lot of strange stuff......and rarely ever have a problem.....this shifting pattern will be a challenge.........

When I was in high school, I drove a 1965 White-Freightliner cabover semi hauling grain for a farmer. It had a 5 speed main transmission, and a 4 speed auxiliary, or brownie. Same pattern as your White, less the reverse. Interesting old truck to drive - cab over, with air “assist” steering that didn’t really assist much. Because it was a cab over, the shift linkage was miles long and it was pretty easy to get stuck in 3rd in the brownie, which made driving in the fields fun!

 

Enough thread hi-jacking - beautiful car, and I love all the learning and discovery!

[1912Staver]

A time capsule, par excellence !

 

Greg

[trimacar]

10 hours ago, Robert G. Smits said:

Friends like that are hard to come by.  What is the story on why the car sat all these years.  Did he restore, refurbish.show or tour any of his cars?

He toured Model T’s, all over the country.  Did at least one trip around the US, 7000 miles in a T. He used 1912-1914 T’s, and liked them because even with a breakdown parts were a phone call away.  This is a man who could literally afford any car out there, and chose T’s.  His restored T’s were beautiful but used.  He was in the process of trying to finish restoration on Model 16 Buick, it went to a great home.

[RossWalkup]

Dr I do not know you but my son and I have or have had 8 or 10 whites over the years . I currently have a 15 45 Yellowstone his the I drive all the time.I live in Venice Fl in the winter and Franklin Nc in summer.I am sure you know not to loose any  original  White bolts and try to replace them with stock modern bolts or just because White used ALAM bolts not SAE bolts. Also White made many 7 pass cars in 1917 for Yellowstone Park as well as  the buses. Would love to come see you car when I get back to Fl . Marks magneto is one of the best for magneto work but he is usually backed up. Call me if you think I could help you 941 468 6795 cell or 828 524 6702 in Nc.

 

 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, nickelroadster said:

Wow!!!

That car is fabulous.  In some of the ways it looks quite modern for 1917.  I think I would have some new carpet made and preserve the old stuff.  You should probably sell tickets for rides.  It has probably been said earlier but I must have missed it if it was.  Do we know how much this car cost when new?  Is all that upholstery leather?  You need to get a couple of gallons of conditioner.  Probably takes a litlle practice to shift from second to third.

 

The catalog price was listed as 4800......but the chassis was listed at 3500. With a Rubay body, I am guessing it’s more money.....1400 for a body was too cheap for a custom at the time...........and since the body has four tags on it......I’m rather certain it’s not the generic 7 passenger listed. The car has way too much high end detail .........that’s why I showed the door jams and door edges with the special fit hardware. The car looks like a much more modern car........with the bucket  walk between front seats. The finish and fit of the upholstery is fantastic.......arm rests, storage pockets in all the doors and rear body tub, a lined top that had a hat rack........storage compartments under all the seats, and in the two front uprights. The factory provided White speciality tools were all nickel plated. The compression release and cut out from the driver seat surprised me. Two keys to drive the car......one for the magneto, the other for the lights. Overall a fantastic car that should run easily....if the engine wasn’t trashed back in the 40’s when put away. Time will tell. My local buddies were hooting it up when they came to look at it. It’s gigantic..........and it has its own presence......unusual for a pre WW1  car. 

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, RossWalkup said:

Dr I do not know you but my son and I have or have had 8 or 10 whites over the years . I currently have a 15 45 Yellowstone his the I drive all the time.I live in Venice Fl in the winter and Franklin Nc in summer.I am sure you know not to loose any  original  White bolts and try to replace them with stock modern bolts or just because White used ALAM bolts not SAE bolts. Also White made many 7 pass cars in 1917 for Yellowstone Park as well as  the buses. Would love to come see you car when I get back to Fl . Marks magneto is one of the best for magneto work but he is usually backed up. Call me if you think I could help you 941 468 6795 cell or 828 524 6702 in Nc.

 

 

 

Hi Ross, I will give you a ring in the morning......thanks. Ed.

[Dandy Dave]

On 8/16/2020 at 2:01 AM, edinmass said:

When I sent AJ a photo of the car, his reaction was.......wow, that a good looking car from 1917. I agreed with him......for a Pre WWI car it’s strikingly good looking and has great proportions. Tonight I found out why..........Rubay built the body. The design was one of the first commission's that Thomas Hibbard ever did. He went on to become a founding partner in LaBaron, and then went on to Paris and was part of the Hibbard & Darrin fame. The more I look at the car, the more it reminds me of a Crane Simplex of 1916-1917 era. Same imposing size and quality. 

Yeah. I did some work on the 1916 Simplex-Craine that Mike K had. That was a lot of automobile. I bought the trailer that he hauled it around in several years ago. Best thing I ever did as even my 1925 White truck fits in it and my 1915 Buick with the top up. Has about 8 and 1/2 foot to the ceiling. Nice find that White touring car. Great to see it has found a new home with an owner that can do it right and keep it straight for this part of it's journey in time.  

[Dandy Dave]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

The above motion comment is very interesting.......Cleveland VS Detroit.......and I am dying to comment on it.............wonder how long my suspension would last? Whom do I appeal to? 🤔

Cletrac crawler tractors were also built by White. Cletrac = Cleveland Tractor Company. Dandy Dave! 

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Cletrac crawler tractors were also built by White. Cletrac = Cleveland Tractor Company. Dandy Dave! 

 

 

Had one fifteen years ago.........Cletrac and Oliver are just plain cool things..........

[John_Mereness]

21 hours ago, George Cole said:

 

 

 

Awesome - it has pass through seating - always great in an early car !!!

[Matt Harwood]

This is very exciting to see. Good find, Ed! I'm eager to hear that unusual thing run.

[Grimy]

35 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Awesome - it has pass through seating - always great in an early car !!!

MOST Pierce tourings through 1920 had pass-through seating.

[SC38dls]

Not only was this a great White find (we need a bigger boat) but it’s a cool learning experience for guys like me that have never been into T’s or A’s or any pre WW 1 cars. The special ones really had some neat ideas. Thanks for sharing this adventure and your knowledge Ed 

 

 

[padgett]

I'm glad someone who enjoys it has it, just wish I could have gone.

BTW 'One odd shift pattern I work with on occasion'  That pattern sounds like an early Big Healey. Transmission was originally a four speed but first could not take the Healey's torque so they blocked it off.

[AHa]

Ed,

I would be surprised if that mag was not hot and ready to fire. DU 4s are very good and very dependable mags and give very little trouble. It is the preferred magneto.

[padgett]

Had a Harley Sportster XLCH with a mag. was very reliable except when it wasn't (had to tow with a strap once behind a car to get it to start. With a sleeping bag for a fairing toured all over the midwest and southern Canada. Was a few years ago (think Tricky Dicky was pres).

[SC38dls]

Is this the guy that was President! 

Edited August 17, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Grimy]

SC38DLS, you have truly captured Ed's essence--not to say "soul"...  BRAVO, that's a keeper!

[wayne sheldon]

AHa is right. A very good chance it may run well with only a minor cleaning and some fresh oil. Many years ago, one of the speedsters I had used an original magneto drive and DU4 magneto almost exactly like that one. The big problem with rebuilding them is the condenser. It is located inside the armature, and very tough to get to. Usually, they seem to still be good, however, not always. The other big problem they have is that basic model was used from about 1910 up until WW2. They were well made, and simple enough to be inexpensive, yet very reliable. Early ones are easy to spot. The base and front (gears and distributor) casting are brass, and the Bakelite distributor face uses a two pin "clip-in" to mount to the brass casting. It was right around 1917 that the model was slowly updated to aluminum castings and two bolts to mount the face plate. Transitional versions with some brass castings were common years ago. The style you showed was used from somewhat before 1920 (I do not know exactly what year) up until WW2. Many automobiles used them in the '10s, and even some into the '20s. I looked at a '25 Brewster town car for sale many years ago that had a Bosch DU4, and racing cars also often used them. Because they were common and reliable, they were often used as replacements on earlier cars.

In later years, throughout the '20s and '30s, they were commonly used on trucks and tractors.

 

The mag has timing marks inside on the gears and armature. However! Because they were made for so many years, Bosch altered the internal timing a few times. While the various parts are generally interchangeable (other than the distributor casting and Bakelite face plate which must be matching styles or seriously altered?),  care MUST be taken to get the internal timing correct. It isn't too difficult to figure out, but can drive one crazy if not expecting such changes. Over the years, magneto shops swapped parts around and it isn't unusual to find timing marks that do not work properly even when one thinks they lined them up.

The magnetos are designed to function either clockwise, or counterclockwise provided one has the proper points set (points actually can function backwards, but will not function properly that way), and assembles for proper rotation with the timing marks. Because of the variations in marks, and direction, it is wise to understand the optimum alignment of polarity between the magnets and the armature. It is sometimes necessary to adjust the timing by a tooth or two for optimum performance (and easy starting at low rpm). That optimum point DOES matter if one does not have an impulse! 

 

Another interesting issue one should be aware of. On my speedster with a DU4, I had quite a bit of trouble with spark plug failures! The higher rpm results in higher spark voltages. The modern Champion plugs I ran in that car would begin to fail after about a thousand miles (every time I bought new plugs, I got five of them. When the first one failed, I had my spare and could get another few hundred miles. When the next one failed, I knew the other two would not be good much longer, so replaced all of them. Original era Champions worked better. The failure was in a breakdown of the porcelain insulator! When the car would begin to miss occasionally, I would run the engine in the dark, and see the porcelains lighting up, glowing with each spark. Also, spark plug gap for these magnetos is much smaller than we are generally used to. Many years ago, I saw an original manual for the magnetos, and it suggested .018 (eighteen thousands) inch gap. I did try a more common .025 gap and the engine had considerably more power! But given the spark plug failures, and I could hear the magneto's protective gap sparking, I knew it would not be wise to try to run that large gap. I generally ran .018 to .020 gap.

Edited August 18, 2020 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Update: Conversation with wife.....get dinner tonight, I’m not cooking. First time she has spoken to me since Thursday afternoon when she realized I was in Roanoke Virginia and wouldn’t be home for two days. I say to her, put on your flip flops and come with me to pick up dinner. She says no......why? I reply ; the road trip last week was to pick up our new car. Thought you would like to see it. She says, what new car. I said our new car. You went to Virginia to get my new Kia Soul? (We are buying one next month for her.) No, I went there to get our new car. What is it. (Me) It’s a White. (She wanted a white Kia.) Is it for me? Sure, here is a photo......(she sees photo, frowns, and says it doesn’t look new to her.) I tell her it’s only got 11 thousand miles on it, and it’s a great car. She say, does it run? I say .....Not since 1940. Her response......Your an axxxxxe! So I go pick up dinner and bring it back home. Diner was fine, and no other comments about the car.

 

 

Life in my world........the above is an actual conversation, and her first knowledge of the car. 😎

[George Cole]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Update: Conversation with wife.....get dinner tonight, I’m not cooking. First time she has spoken to me since Thursday afternoon when she realized I was in Roanoke Virginia and wouldn’t be home for two days. I say to her, put on your flip flops and come with me to pick up dinner. She says no......why? I reply ; the road trip last week was to pick up our new car. Thought you would like to see it. She says, what new car. I said our new car. You went to Virginia to get my new Kia Soul? (We are buying one next month for her.) No, I went there to get our new car. What is it. (Me) It’s a White. (She wanted a white Kia.) Is it for me? Sure, here is a photo......(she sees photo, frowns, and says it doesn’t look new to her.) I tell her it’s only got 11 thousand miles on it, and it’s a great car. She say, does it run? I say .....Not since 1940. Her response......Your an axxxxxe! So I go pick up dinner and bring it back home. Diner was fine, and no other comments about the car.

 

 

Life in my world........the above is an actual conversation, and her first knowledge of the car. 😎

 

Let me guess...she has no interest in any of your collector cars, but wants her name on the title of every one of them.  I know the feeling.  

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

This is very exciting to see. Good find, Ed! I'm eager to hear that unusual thing run.

 

Trust me Matt.......I’m eager to hear it run also..........roll the dice, see what you get.........this car is a scratch ticket.......you win or you lose, the only question is the number. Such is the way of old cars.

[edinmass]

Car service update........magneto is out for a mechanical overhaul and check up. I hate cars that don’t run. I could’ve done it myself but if it needed a condenser It would’ve been beyond my abilities. All the magneto  guys are busy, But I sent one a link to this thread and he agreed to turn it around in five days. No cosmetic work just a mechanical overhaul so it fits back in under the hood and it looks appropriate to the rest of the car. We will drop the oil pan in the gas tank Wednesday afternoon. I’ll inspect everything, he sure everything is clean. Make a new gaskets. And reinstall. Will bring my oil pan to a car wash first to get it mostly clean and then will bring it back to the shop to use the safety-clean tank. The gas tank looked really good using the borescope to take a peek inside. It’s not rusty and it’s very good condition so it’s just a matter of cleaning it I don’t think it even needs to be sealed. Vacuum tank will be rebuilt and installed. I expect will be driving it before the end of the month. The only loose ends are new tubes for all the tires, and the water pump. I’m gonna give it the evapo rust treatment. I will end up replacing all the wiring but fortunately the conduit is in very good shape and is easily removed. The way the electrical system is constructed I can actually do one wire at a time without any problems. It was interesting to see original battery bolts attached to the battery cables from 1917. We will begin to clean and treat the leather tomorrow.

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

36 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Life in my world........the above is an actual conversation, and her first knowledge of the car. 😎

Tell her my mom's expression:  "I have owned like 250 cars since I have been marriage - just another car - they come, they go, some stay, some are fine and some are not, and ..." 

[edinmass]

Here are the factory keys, one marked ignition, the other marked tool for the tool & glove boxes. All the lock cylinders, all eight of them work and function fine.......a first on any car I have ever owned. When I brought the keys to my local lock shop, who are fantastic and enjoy working on old cars locks.....the young guy behind the counter asked me what year my Rolls Royce was.....due to the Yale locks. 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

When you get together with Ross Walkup you can have a white convention.  His Yellowstone bus is a real kick to ride in as you sit up very high and can see things real well.  Will be interesting to compare details as it wouldn't 

surprise me if there were a number of things in common with these two vehicles.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, nickelroadster said:

When you get together with Ross Walkup you can have a white convention.  His Yellowstone bus is a real kick to ride in as you sit up very high and can see things real well.  Will be interesting to compare details as it wouldn't 

surprise me if there were a number of things in common with these two vehicles.

Spoke to Ross today, nice guy. I think my car and his bus are about the same size...........😎