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The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts


edinmass

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1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

I knew exactly what I was bidding on cause you told me!    Coincidentally,  you wouldn't want to buy one that looks just like it?


 

I’m certain you didn’t buy it, your wife told me she forbid you to do any more car purchases, shows, and tours. 

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46 minutes ago, edinmass said:


 

I’m certain you didn’t buy it, your wife told me she forbid you to do any more car purchases, shows, and tours. 


I don’t know why, it is going so well.

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What do you think is the likelihood the motometer even sold to a White owner ? How desirable is the basic unit with the attractive blue detailing to a general collector of mascot's  ?

 When a Staver Chicago radiator badge sold several months ago for a pretty penny , I expect the buyer was a badge collector rather than the owner of one of the two other Staver Chacigo owners besides myself that have a car needing one.

  On the relics , radiator badges, screw on hubcaps, makers tags, and badged motometers,  from rare cars  I expect most of the demand comes from specialized collectors of the particular object. The people who actually own the vehicles are probably the minority of bidders.

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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I agree the unit didn't go to a White owner........I know most of them that own the later gas powered cars. Kind of interesting the unit didn't say White on it.........and let's face it......the albatross is interesting but far from "great" or "fantastic" as a logo. Hell, the thing won't even display well in a mascot collection. It's too small, and obscure. I bet the next owner buys it for fifty bucks in 25 years long after the new owner kicks the bucket. I'm guessing we shall never know.

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The albatross around Ed's neck....I'll have to re-read Samuel Taylor Coleridge's The Rime of the Ancient Mariner when I come up for air, timewise....

 

I'm sure Ed will claim that I purchased a first edition when it come out ca. 1798.....so I'll beat him to it!

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 I bet the next owner buys it for fifty bucks in 25 years long after the new owner kicks the bucket. 

The virtual certainty of this for so many of the things that many of us own is amusing.   Here’s to the incredible deals someday waiting for the next generation.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Grimy said:

The albatross around Ed's neck....I'll have to re-read Samuel Taylor Coleridge's The Rime of the Ancient Mariner when I come up for air, timewise....

 

I'm sure Ed will claim that I purchased a first edition when it come out ca. 1798.....so I'll beat him to it!

 

 

George........PLEASE! I would never accuse you of being able to read! 🤣

 

 

"Praedica qui formidolosus et pauperes avunculi George nunquam emere librum."
Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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47 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Praedica qui formidolosus et pauperes avunculi George nunquam emere librum

I have MANY books, Edgar II, and have read almost all of them, and will finish them all if God gives me time.  Some are in Latin (had 4 yrs of Latin in a Jesuit HS, at the time all-male), some in Homeric Greek (2 yrs of that).  You may find this amusing:  2nd year of Greek was junior year after we had (1) got our drivers' licenses and (2) had discovered girls.  To counteract our flagging interest in Greek, the scholastic (priest-in-training) had us translate Hesiod's Theogeny, the world's first dirty book recounting in great detail the couplings of the gods and goddesses on Mount Olympus.  Needless to say, we all did our Greek homework first.  What a vocabulary we had!  So trepeu.....

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For Ed.....

 

Quo usque tandem abutere, Edgardus, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

 

(with apologies to M. Tullius Cicero)

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7 minutes ago, Grimy said:

For Ed.....

 

Quo usque tandem abutere, Edgardus, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

 

(with apologies to M. Tullius Cicero)

 

 

MADE ME SMILE.........👍

 

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34 minutes ago, edinmass said:
45 minutes ago, Grimy said:

For Ed.....

 

Quo usque tandem abutere, Edgardus, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

 

(with apologies to M. Tullius Cicero)

 

 

MADE ME SMILE.........👍

For those who were not subjected to study of the Latin language in their misspent youth, this is the opening of Cicero's First Oration against Catiline (he of the Catalinian Conspiracy), circa 63 BC, and reads as follows in more-or-less modern English:

 

"When, O Catiline, do you intend to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us? When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now?"

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Posted (edited)

Back to the story of “The Great White #2”.

 

Well, today I got to experience another unpleasantness compliments of the State of Florida & the federal government. What can it be you ask? The same problem I had back last October getting a title for the other White. You see Number 2 has a three digit VIN number. Number 1 had a five digit VIN number. Well, guess how many vehicles in the USA have a three digit VIN the same as my 1917 White? More than 40! Now in a normal,world, this would not be a problem. We no longer live in a normal world in the United States. Even though for the last 125 year multiple identical VIN numbers have never been a problem, today they are. The new federal database of stolen car VIN’s administered by the Dept of Justice(there is none.....justice that is.) are BY LAW NOT TO BE APPLIED TO VIN’s of less than 18 digits issued before 1981. Well, just because it’s the law doesn’t mean big brother won’t try and take a bite out of your ass. Florida again said there is a lock out at the Federal level on the VIN, and yes, Florida admits that the law says it doesn’t apply to my car........but they still insist I must go through this long, drawn  out, bullshit process to get a title.  This time it will be ten times easier as I know the process, and how to push it along. And fortunately I have a copy of the title from 1925. Imagine if I didn’t have it? Another four months of BS waiting for reports from all 50 states. The one bright spot, the inspector of VIN’s lives and works three miles from my home, he’s a great guy, and a retired Navy man. We talk steam while he comes to the shop to inspect the car and file the fifty pages of red tape. The last car hadn’t been registered for 82 years and this one has had a current registration for the last 20. The one good point? There isn’t one. Nothing like having purchased a expensive car, with a clear unencumbered title, and being told it’s two months before you will see a title if you are lucky. This time, I am demanding a temporary tag at state expense with insurance.........since they are clearly depriving me of my right to operate the car..........should be interesting to hear their response. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I personally question whether that moto-meter face was White, I’ve always been under the impression that it was a deluxe version meter for an aftermarket clientele. I am pretty sure the exact same face was available in three colors, that blue (which I have one that came from Bill Williams along with the aftermarket identification) a red one that was sold on eBay around 12-15 years ago whereas I was outbid, and I had heard stories about a green one. What I find outstanding was the cap in the Bonhams auction which is what drove the price astronomically high IMO.

 

 I can take a better picture tomorrow, but definitely the same albatross…3FB58DB8-6DD7-4F89-BCC2-F3C22A4598A1.jpeg.ad7601a90598f615d9eb4851d4154541.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

It’s certainly a White Motor Company albatross............of that I have no doubt. I never considered that the cap was what may have been driving the price. That said, White used their own TPI for USS standard on the car......so unless some others used the exact same size and TPI.......that would make the cap exclusively White only. White was prolific and for several years in the top five producers of automobiles..........it’s unlikely that anyone back then would have taken that bird as anything but a White logo. Would love to see the other colors. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I have to admit that Bill must have missed it as a White… I also thought the second meter disc had a Boyce logo beneath the bird instead of space for a monogram suggesting it was a “close but not quite” bird to the Albatross. I have to wonder why it didn’t have the “W” beneath???

 

If you have any interesting trading items and want, I am sure that we can come up with a mutually satisfying horse-trade on the meter but the fob is sentimental and absolutely not available. Funny, but for the longest time I thought it was my only White piece!9C954262-4283-47DF-A344-7CBE7E2213BE.jpeg.38951d897eddf8d15aef17d731826d48.jpeg

 

 

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20 hours ago, Grimy said:

For Ed.....

 

Quo usque tandem abutere, Edgardus, patientia nostra? quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia?

 

(with apologies to M. Tullius Cicero)

 

Those of us that constantly spend time and money on "old cars" have been accused of being crazy more than once.

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The Boyce motometer company had a Deluxe Model that had an albatross that was basically identical to the one seen on the White logo. These Deluxe model motometers were used on a wide variety of larger, generally high end, vehicles, not just Whites. The Boyce company actually had special faceplates (or dials as they were called) for most makes of cars, trucks and tractors of that era, including White. I have two different style White faceplates. I have attached a few photos where you can see that the Boyce Deluxe model albatross is basically identical to the one on the White logo.

BOYCE DELUXE MODEL.jpg

BOYCE DELUXE NOS B.JPG

WHITE.jpg

WHITE B.JPG

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That blank rectangle on the second motometer is a real mystery. Why the White albatross but no White name , or any other name for that matter?

 

P.S. , I see iluv335s has just cleared that up.

Still a bit of a mystery about why Boyce would generically use a symbol very closely associated with White Motors ?

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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On 6/29/2021 at 7:29 PM, edinmass said:

Back to the story of “The Great White #2”.

 

Well, today I got to experience another unpleasantness compliments of the State of Florida & the federal government. What can it be you ask? The same problem I had back last October getting a title for the other White. You see Number 2 has a three digit VIN number. Number 1 had a five digit VIN number. Well, guess how many vehicles in the USA have a three digit VIN the same as my 1917 White? More than 40! Now in a normal,world, this would not be a problem. We no longer live in a normal world in the United States. Even though for the last 125 year multiple identical VIN numbers have never been a problem, today they are. The new federal database of stolen car VIN’s administered by the Dept of Justice(there is none.....justice that is.) are BY LAW NOT TO BE APPLIED TO VIN’s of less than 18 digits issued before 1981. Well, just because it’s the law doesn’t mean big brother won’t try and take a bite out of your ass. Florida again said there is a lock out at the Federal level on the VIN, and yes, Florida admits that the law says it doesn’t apply to my car........but they still insist I must go through this long, drawn  out, bullshit process to get a title.  This time it will be ten times easier as I know the process, and how to push it along. And fortunately I have a copy of the title from 1925. Imagine if I didn’t have it? Another four months of BS waiting for reports from all 50 states. The one bright spot, the inspector of VIN’s lives and works three miles from my home, he’s a great guy, and a retired Navy man. We talk steam while he comes to the shop to inspect the car and file the fifty pages of red tape. The last car hadn’t been registered for 82 years and this one has had a current registration for the last 20. The one good point? There isn’t one. Nothing like having purchased a expensive car, with a clear unencumbered title, and being told it’s two months before you will see a title if you are lucky. This time, I am demanding a temporary tag at state expense with insurance.........since they are clearly depriving me of my right to operate the car..........should be interesting to hear their response. 

 

Ed, here's another perspective on that federal database...

 

My recently acquired 1909 Buick (Actually, it is a 1910 Model, but that's another story...) has a 4 digit VIN. When I went to the Michigan Secretary of State (SoS) office to transfer the out-of-state title, the VIN was flagged in the National database as matching a stolen vehicle from Alabama. I figured I would be going through the same kind of agonizing and infuriating process that so many of you have endured and complained about.... 

 

I was shocked when the SoS clerk told me that I would just have to wait a few minutes while she got the lock-out cleared. It took her almost 45 minutes (normally a 15 minute process, she said), but she researched the open stolen vehicle report, submitted my information to verify that my Buick was not the stolen vehicle on record and then had to wait about 30 minutes for the Feds to clear the VIN hold.

 

I left the office with a temporary registration and able to drive the car immediately.

 

I think it all comes down to the knowledge and attitude of the person behind the counter. While we were waiting for the Federal database clearance, she even helped me verify that the "Year of Manufacture" plate I intended to use would get approved. It was truly a customer-focused and pleasant interaction. Most people I've told about this experience find it hard to believe, but I assure you; this really happened. It was actually fun working with her.

 

I wish everyone could have the same kind of experience!

 

 

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Problem in Florida is the lockout can ONLY be cleared by one person in Tallahassee, after you fix all the red tape. Even though the federal database is only supposed to work on 18 digit vin numbers issued after 1981. Basically it’s pure bullshit. The machine likes to make people beg and plead. Worst part now is they still have to do an in person inspection and the car is not here yet. Remember when I went through this the first time the people who denied me my title didn’t even know what the next step was or where to call.  They literally had no clue on what to do next even though I was locked out. That took four days a phone calls. I’m fortunate  the local representative likes old cars and I get along with him well. I really can’t put up a stink when I have 17 old cars that are registered & insured at my disposal. And since Covid is over I expect the process will be at easier this time. 

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Ed, FL DMV will accept a serial number check done by a DMV rep, dealer, or cop in another state.  At least they did for me with a bike I purchased in MN.  And in reverse, PA accepted a serial number verification by a Cocoa Beach cop to clear up a title problem with a car I bought there and had already brought to FL.  But again, this is all in Breeeevard County where our DMV reps seem to be more cooperative than what you're dealing with.

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You mentioned the 6 cylinder White production.  For historical purposes the first 6  cylinder model F was produced in late April 1912.  The White company never stamped a serial no. in the frame of their cars or trucks until 1918.  They painted the s/n on the frame on the the left side near the rear end location.  The s/n was stamped in the data plate affixed to the rear of the dash board (passenger side) and after 1910 was 5 digits long.  This started with no. 1 and was sequential regardless of model produced.  Do not use the term VIN in relation to any vehicle  produced before 1981, it will only get you in trouble, insist on using "serial number" to avoid confusion.   The 3 digit number on your new White is probably the sequence number of that model car and White would have a lot of cars with the same number but only one car manufactured with the same serial number.

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Posted (edited)

Interestingly, my new White was registered and titled new by the engine number, not the serial number. I don’t think everything was consistent at White in the 1915-1918 era for cars. Lots of “known” and “reported” numbers are tossed around, but from actual surviving numbers, which are very low, it’s hard to get your head around everything. Also, so many different body builders adds to the mix up. Hell, in 1917 with the Dual Valve platform, there were significant differences mechanically as well as with chassis accessories. Only thing for sure........there is no “rule of thumb” in this era of White car production. I have my head wrapped around it pretty well.....I think!

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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A couple of photos that have appeared on facebook in the last couple of days.

 

First one, posted by Keith Sparks. A comment from Alex Trepanier says he sold it to Bobby Green - 

 

May be an image of outdoors

 

 

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Posted on another facebook page was a bunch of photos from the Forgotten Oregon page. Posted by Matthew Mortimore who 'detoured through Shaniko, Oregon. 

 

A number of unrestored cars there from the 1920s to '60s. 

 

No photo description available.

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White fer sail. Driven on white lightnin runs in the Ozarks, to the local general mercantile on Saturday, and of course to church on Sunday if the road was passible. Parked in the winter and on rainy days when the mud is deep. It aint too pretty unless Cuzin Shirly is riden along with the gang. She could be part of the deal ifen granny aint riden shotgun that day. The rust don't interfear with the reliability none. Comes with a hard cider barrel full of parts that have fallen off. Price is a right arm and a left leg. Uncle Beau need new ones as they been shot off by revernewers while he was protectin the famley busyness. Inquier apon in person.   

IMG_1800 (1).JPG

IMG_1802.JPG

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I had the great pleasure of being driven around Palm Beach tonight in the White.  (Thanks, Ed, for a great evening!)  The car is huge, and so solid, and so F-A-S-T.   It's a serious driving car, that can be driven hard, and it's 104 years old!  I was laughing most of the way, it was seriously entertaining.   Here's a short clip:

 

 

 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

I had the great pleasure of being driven around Palm Beach tonight in the White.  (Thanks, Ed, for a great evening!)  The car is huge, and so solid, and so F-A-S-T.   It's a serious driving car, that can be driven hard, and it's 104 years old!  I was laughing most of the way, it was seriously entertaining.   Here's a short clip:

 

Orin - great video - thanks!   I'm happy to see someone smart enough to hold the phone horizontally when taking videos.   Ed always holds his flip phone the wrong way.  

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Posted (edited)

It was fun to have Orin stop by and visit with his family. He’s a true car guy, and some day he will own a Pierce Arrow. 😛

 

It was great fun seeing a Packard owner of many years......(and he’s just turned 50).......look at our Packards. He had a huge smile on his face. Unfortunately the weather wasn’t good enough to take out a coach built car that was restored. I thought he was going to give the 1932 Individual Custom Sport Phaeton a hug. He has good taste. And I look forward to some car adventures with him, AJ, and the rest of the gang at Pebble next month. 
 

The video shows how well the pop on halogen lights work. They are off a 1922 Chevy. They match the car perfectly, and almost look like early Tripp lights. 
 

 

59D8D8C3-1868-43E5-95A7-DDF0D87171C9.jpeg

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Orin - great video - thanks!   I'm happy to see someone smart enough to hold the phone horizontally when taking videos.   Ed always holds his flip phone the wrong way.  


You never seem to complain about the technology that I have a bit of knowledge in. And you like to take advantage of it. I suggest you buy me a new Apple iPhone and a new Apple tablet. I’ll go to the local community college and take a few classes on them. 🤑

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Thanks for the video, looks like a riot to ride in the White.  But shouldn't the 'video' be recorded by a giant camera on a tripod set up in the tonneau with those big reels of film on top and  a crank on the side?   

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7 hours ago, alsancle said:

  Ed always holds his flip phone the wrong way.  

At least he’s pointing it in the right direction....if turned in the other direction, we’d have to look at him! We all know a 104 yr old car is much more attractive!

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Wayne......the tracking number on your parts that I shipped back to you is:

 

 

 

 

1234 go shit in your hat 999

 

Best I can determine, the package is lost! 

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1 hour ago, yachtflame said:

Oh, did I say that out loud?
 You didn’t take offense to my previous post did you? 
 Just the mumblings of an old sea Capt. I think I’ve been on land too long...please forgive me!


 

Send me money, and I will no longer be offended. Cash, in 100’s. 

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23 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

I had the great pleasure of being driven around Palm Beach tonight in the White.  (Thanks, Ed, for a great evening!)  The car is huge, and so solid, and so F-A-S-T.   It's a serious driving car, that can be driven hard, and it's 104 years old!  I was laughing most of the way, it was seriously entertaining.   Here's a short clip:

 

 

 

That’s what it’s all about for me. Driving and having fun! Not a static display to stroke an ego

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12 hours ago, BobinVirginia said:

That’s what it’s all about for me. Driving and having fun! Not a static display to stroke an ego

Like a character we all know from this forum “drive it like you stole it” !  Have fun that’s what is important. 
dave s 

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