The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Test and tune. We had obvious timing issues since day one when we started it. Time to address the timing today. Lots of problems and issues, but we “cheated” our way to be able to test the timing problems we were having. I made a new magneto drive disk with slotted holes to change the timing between the output shaft on the exhaust cam and the input on the magneto. Not perfect yet, but much better. We got the engine to rev up to half throttle.......and the White designed carburetor’s secondary’s started to kick in.........sort of, kind of.........but not correctly. The thing runs like a raped ape. I now know why it only has 11k miles on it. It used all the gasoline in the Western Hemisphere.........and ran the country dry. That’s why we ended up getting oil from thr Middle East .........White Cars use more fuel than Patton’s Third Army when they are on the move. So, an inside stock tip.......every time I take this thing on tour.....buy oil stocks. This thing is becoming frighteningly fast......and we are only at half throttle. It’s not reasonable...........doesn’t car care what  gear it’s in........shut up, step on the gas, and get the sxxt scared out of you. The car is an animal..........it’s too easy to get into trouble with. All the while we were laughing and getting blood pressure spikes. We are done driving it till we get plates.....it just isn’t reasonable to road test in the parking lot any more. We still have fuel delivery, fuel system, and ignition issues......this one is not going to sort fast. I may need a loan to buy gas..........maybe we need to do a go fund me page for hydro carbons. More later.......I have a huge smile on my face!

Edited September 26, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

Perhaps a Simms coupling to drive the magneto would enable you to dial in the timing . If there is room for the coupling .

[edinmass]

12 minutes ago, HarryLime said:

Perhaps a Simms coupling to drive the magneto would enable you to dial in the timing . If there is room for the coupling .

 

That’s a new one on me, I’m game, where do I find one? Thanks, Ed.

[edinmass]

14 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I don't know that this will be of any help...probably not but it never hurts to have more information. I'm sure I have two of these little booklets but I'll be damned if I can find the extra one. I know it will show up sooner or later...nevertheless, here is the section on timing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Joe.....this made me use the cheater slotted drive half assed attempted fix.......which partially worked. I need more time to study this thing. It isn’t going to be easy to get perfect. Just more time........the thing we never have enough of. I’m going to go back to a stock magneto as soon as possible.........

[gossp]

26 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

That’s a new one on me, I’m game, where do I find one? Thanks, Ed.

I believe restoration supply. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by gossp (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I hate to cheat the car out, but it looks like a great test and tune tool........In for a penny, in for a dime. Thanks for the heads up.......you get to drive it when it’s sorted. 👍

[HarryLime]

https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/products/ca1132-vernier-coupling-assembly      This is but one example I found quickly . It is the assembly and requires machining to your application. I have not seen the coupling posted above . Perhaps easier to fit to your application .

[JV Puleo]

Sims couplings are sold by The Complete Automobilist. I think the magneto timing device sold by Restoration Supply is too modern, especially for this car. I went with this design illustrated in Heldt's 1912 engine design text. It wasn't a simple thing to make but I think I could do one for the white if you thought it was worthwhile...just not until I've finished some other things. I did have a special tapered end mill ground to replicate the Bosch taper - which is not one you'll ever find a stock reamer for.

 

 

 

Somewhere, in my Mitchell thread, I've shown how I made mine.

[edinmass]

Thanks Joe. I want to get the car running correctly......which is probably a long way off. I should be able to cheat it with my slotted drive solution until we get a solid game plan. It’s a replacement magneto, and I have a factory unit coming in a few months......although I don’t yet have a drive yolk for it. Between the fuel fittings, vacuumed tank, missing petcocks, and other hardware under hood for the throttle linkage........it’s time to start sorting and making it run right. When it’s where I want it to be, we will make or locate everything for it to be period correct. I absolutely go insane when I see pre war cars with modern fuel line hardware. This car is going to be a big challenge to get right. 

[padgett]

Well back when a yonker the PBPolice was more like a private force and residents got waves. WPB was more like gestapo for a resident, did not like. Just was suggesting a dealer plate as a temporary stopgap in a time when the DMV is no longer just walk in. At least you should get the +30 years discount or maybe the one time $46.50 antique plate. My cars are all DDs but am finally out of plates with all these unplanned twofers.

[edinmass]

Update:

 

A few interesting things today. Upper windshield photo, we now have safety glass, with correct markings for the show field. With the look of this car, I decided to use a modern marking instead of a vintage marking. I just don’t want to have any issues with this car while going down the road.....and a early marking might confuse the so called enforcement people......on or off the show field. The car now starts much easier that we shifted the timing.........we had to severely retard it...........seems appropriate for the two guys working on it. Also got to play with the exhaust cut out with the floor boards installed for the first time. It’s a progressive valve with a automatic lock at wide open...........when we were making the new linkage I kept to the original design as closely as possible......which worked out well, as we were missing some parts and items that we found later......and installed. Thus staying true to the design, we didn’t have to back track, and now with a touch of your heel, you can open it momentarily.......or mash it and lock it open. Mash it again, and the quick release closes it easily. Fun stuff to keep finding new functions this late in the servicing. With all the work done, and being so close to the finish line......working on the car is easier and less aggravating. It’s nice to walk into the shop and know your not going home bleeding or sore because all the hard stuff is over. It’s now the “attention to detail” stuff we couldn’t figure out earlier that is going to slow us down. I need to become a gas guage fabricator.........and I admit I rather find someone else to do it..........I figure it will take several tries before I am happy with the results........so we will make parts for five gauges........if I end up with two good ones I will be happy. Also, the fan clutch finally broke loose today. I think it was gummed up and the fan was basically locked to the chain.......either the long term exposure to the hot oil, engine heat, or just pulling on it while trying to time the engine.......it released. Now you can stick you hand into the fan and still have something for the emergency room to stitch together. It’s fun how the car continues it improve in small ways. Here is a photo of the upper glass, and the fan drive spindle.....it’s driven by a silence chain about two inches wide......overkill. Looking forward to progress with our supplemental lighting system soon.

Edited September 26, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Wonderful stuff! I enjoy reading about this incredible car and your adventure with it. 

Looking at the picture of the windshield frame, I can see what you mean about being so fantastically over-built. The heavy casting, the wing nuts, and the stops to hold the upper glass in a lowered position are incredible! I recall you saying some time ago about how heavy that frame was. Interesting now to see it this close.

 

You commented again about the many tapered leaves springs on this beast. Working on many antiques cars over the years, and early model T Fords in particular, I always found tapered leaves to be an interesting study in design, form, and practical function. Earlier model Ts (before 1918) had tapered leaf springs on the rear, and on the front they were tapered before 1916. You know this as you yourself have a 1915 T Ford. However, I always found this interesting because Henry was so known for pinching pennies on the cars he built and sold. Engineers know that a tapered leaf is the ideal design for leaf springs. The thickness of the spring steel has less advantage with each inch from the pivotal point. However, making/manufacturing tapered leaves by any method (either rolled or ground) is labor intensive. Rolling the taper requires very heavy specialized machinery. Automated grinding requires major machinery, makes a huge mess, and requires constant maintenance. Either hammering or grinding manually takes a lot of man-hours to do the job (I know, I have done it myself a few times!), and such grinding again makes a huge mess.

The only real downside to leaving the leaves full thickness is unnecessary weight. The other major incentive to taper the spring leaves was simply tradition. Throughout most of the horse drawn carriage century, springs were hand made by forge and hammer. Steel was expensive, and drawing out the length by tapering spring leaves saved a limited and costly resource. As automobile production got going, it was natural to continue doing things the way they had been done for many years before. However, as steel mills grew ever larger, steel in general and specialty steels (like spring steel) went down in cost. I often wondered why Henry didn't switch to clipped leaves much earlier. The labor costs versus benefits would have made it advantageous even before the model T was introduced.

A lot of high end cars continued to taper the spring leaves. I suspect that had to do with the perception of quality. As heavy as this car is, I doubt they were concerned about the weight advantage.

[DavidAU]

A lot of Bosch Magnetos use a Simms coupling with 19 teeth one side and 20 on the other which enables the timing to be infinitely adjustable.  The magneto shown has a 19 / 20 coupling on it.

 

They would be part No's 446/19, 446/20 provided they have the correct shaft taper and coupling 450 on the following link. https://www.completeautomobilist.com/categories/complete-automobilist-workshop-parts-vernier-coupling  

[RossWalkup]

Ed I know you have been busy so I didn't want to bother you but I have several thing you might be interested in. I just talked to my friend out west , he has a 1916 60hp 6 cyl White and also the remains of a duel valve 4 Cyl car .Also you said the man your car came from was a long time Tampa FL resident if he was there in the early 60s I would love to see if he knew the man that restored my 1913 60 horse Oakland  most of the old timers in the Tampa area that I knew  have passed on.Call me when you get time I am still in NC. The number here is 828 524 6702 and I am up up till 10:30 most evenings

[edinmass]

Update:

 

I got very sick over the weekend. Worst I have felt in twenty years........they exact way you don't want to feel during a pandemic with the China Flu going around. Took Monday off which is very unusual for me. Anyways, I had all the classic symptoms of the Covid 19. Took a test yesterday and the results today were negative.  So, with feeling like garbage for a few days, I did get to play with the car. Sometime you can't stay away. Phil took time off until I got my results........so he will be back in the game tomorrow. 

 

As only old cars can accomplish something thing while sitting still in a garage thats locked down tight.............the White managed to break itself, without any help........an impressive accomplishment for an inadimate object. The windshield stress cracked...........and, more than three days after being installed, and left alone. Go figure, and we wonder why old car people are insane. Took it back to the place that did it, and got an instant you did it.....not our fault. Fortunatly the opposite side where there was no damage delaminated and had bubbles in it.......proving my theory the glass was junk to start with. So, now they are doing it again, at no cost. We shall see how it turns out. 

 

Picking away at all the little stupid stuff that takes hours, and that is where we are at now. Finally removed all temporary lines, wires, hoses, quick fixes, ect..........and got the car back to factory stock as delivered, from what we know of it. I primed the Stewart Warner vacuum tank, fired the car up, and backed it outside. I must have done 100 vacuum tanks over the years, and learned the do it right the first time lesson. Fortunately it was fine. So, now we actually have a car, as delivered from the factory, with everything in place, functioning properly. Couldn't let such an opportunity to go to waste. While running for forty five minutes in the parking lot and making a few rounds, I decided to check on the non functioning Boyce Moto Meeter........its 103 years old, looks good, but it wasn't working. So, I let the car idle while I took it apart, and was going to replace the thermometer in it, as I had a new spare on hand. I was surprised it was reading almost into the normal range below the front cover....the thing was actually working, and even in 95 degree heat, the car runs so cool it doesn't quite make it to the normal range. Now thats what I call good engineering more than 100 years later. We blocked the radiator in front and got the Boyce to climb into the normal range........its the only time I have had anything normal in my life the last twenty years. So, back together it went. Standing there with a complete and serviced car running, I turned to Phil who happened to be going by and stopped to see the action..........plates or no plates.....this SOB is going down the road! So, for the first time in 81 years, it pulled out of the garage and parking lot and hit the streets. Now remember, my neighbors are use to seeing me drive crazy cool stuff........over the top stuff, and they almost never look sideways or say a peep. Well, when the old "Long in the tooth White" came down the street sputtering and spitting, with the cut out open.......I got a bunch of waves, smiles, and shout outs. Funny how a dumpy looking car gets more attention than a 100 point one off custom big boy toy. Initial driving report. It's fast, stable, easy to shift, and feels like you strapped on a rocket without enough protection. It isn't happy running along at a normal Sunday drive pace..........it just wants more throttle and open road. Its certainly dangerous until one becomes familiar with it.......fast steering, good but just rear brakes, and you're so high up its distracting. We need to get the top down, no choice in the matter. I don't dare pick up any real speed till it's secure. Most interestingly, it doesn't fell like most of my pre WW1 cars to me. It's big, comfortable, easy to drive, and suprisingly uncomplicated for what it is. The 12 volt system is almost like having a pot of gold next to you. The car spins so fast and starts so quick, the 68 Mustang I'm working on seems like an old hit or miss engine at startup. I have just as much confidence now in the White as I did my 1932 Pierce * coupe I had for twenty years that was totally sorted and had countless miles under its belt. I didn't feel the need to carry a screwdriver while on the first test drive. I'm so familiar with it, I know it's not going to stop or cause problems.....an interesting experience on a new to me car thats in it's second century. I have owned a lot of stuff over the years.......this is certainly a top ten toy.........no doubt about it. Can't wait for the dog to go for their first ride. The little one will sit up on the folded top.........she always has to have the highest vantage point when in a car. The big male will just sit in the front passenger seat waiting to bark at dogs walking down the sidewalk. I'm not sure who will have more fun riding in this thing the next few weeks....me or them. 

 

Also, I realized today I'm missing part of the carburetor and intake system. So that my be part of my running rich condition...........since there are only two or three of these things, it will take time to sort out. As soon as I get my paperwork, all I need is gas and I will do a 100 mile run. Best, Ed

Edited September 30, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

, and we wonder why old car people are insane.

 

We are insane because we CHOOSE to do this! On the other hand, there is little in life as satisfying as meeting that challenge, and conquering the complications. 

 

Keep feeling better!

[SC38dls]

The definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over again thinking the results will change but they don’t!  Isn’t keeping these old cars running and usable the same thing in many cases. So let’s start saying people are old car enthusiasts instead of insane. No that won’t work we’re just nuts. 

[edinmass]

In the last few years, I was on the lawn at Pebble speaking to the restorer who’s car had just won Best of Show. I walked up to him, shook his hand to congratulate him, and asked a simple question. “Who’s crazier, the guy who writes the checks or the guy who restores the car?” He laughed and said.......”we are!” I’m certain he was correct. 😎

[padgett]

Sanity is overrated. Anyone who would buy two Allantes has got to be nertz.

[nickelroadster]

Ed,

Glad to hear you are okay.  The forum just seemed kind of naked without an update from you.  We really don't want you to get sick and kick the bucket.

[edinmass]

To be honest, I felt so bad I figured I must have had the Kung Flu, which if I did, at least I would be past all the insanity. Such is life......back to social distancing and masks. 

[wayne sheldon]

The bad news is that most people survive it. They just get so sick they wish they would die before they find out they have to suffer a couple more weeks first. All kidding aside, I hear it is really nasty for a lot of people, many will suffer after effects for the rest of their lives, while many more get it and never even feel sick. That is part of the danger about it. Most people that can spread it, don't even know they have it. Feeling safe themselves, they risk exposure to people that are serious risk health-wise.

Get better!

[edinmass]

I lost a good friend to it, who was on a vent for three weeks. I know four other well known car people who have had it.......all with little or no symptoms. Crazy bug........

[wayne sheldon]

Always sad to lose a friend. No matter how or to what.  I have been fortunate so far with this bug. I don't know of anybody I know having it. Unfortunately, I have been a bit out of touch for a few years now, and there could very well be friends that have it and I not know it. My son however has some health issues that put him at higher risk than the average person. HIs girlfriend's grandmother passed away a couple weeks ago. They drove from Oregon to Chicago rather than fly for a final visit. Then she passed, and they stayed an extra couple days. He needed to be back for a business thing and flew home. Which was exactly what they wanted to avoid. He has taken the test, and so far, negative. So we begin to breath a bit easier again.

[padgett]

I take it a bit further - long sleeves, trousers, hat, gloves, glasses, and mask with filter plus disinfectant in car. Have been around for longer than most and have had respiratory issues for most of my life. Hoped to hear more news of a vaccine but didn't expect a clown show. Just miss Trivia Tuesdays.

 

Have plenty to do at home, power steering gear on Judge is off for the second time so still on lift and pitman arm puller should be here tomorrow (what looked like the same pitman arm turned out to be 1/2" longer which puts the drag link into the crossmember) so need to swap).

[edinmass]

Update:

 

Ran the car last night for well over an hour straight. Kept it on a very fast idle, didn’t overheat, held oil pressure fine, and overall it behaved well. Water pump started puking, which stopped as soon as we gave a quarter turn on the packing nut. For the first time, the temperature got into the normal range. Started looking into the wiring harness more.......wished I didn’t look. It’s going to need a total replacement. It’s safe for now, and fortunately it’s not overly complicated. Problem is the quality of the White’s construction makes everything difficult to deal with. Also, we don’t want to make it look like we did anything to the car in the way of restoration......so installing new armored wire is out of the question......so, we will try replacing it one wire at a time........but that work will not progress for a while. We still have other things that are more pressing. We could actually live with it if we have to. Phil made the comment he couldn’t believe how much gas the car went through the last few days at idle........I also learned we are missing  a carburetor air horn of some type, from old factory photos that are not very clear. More things to ponder. We might try the Zenith unit sooner than I expected. Started to get everything ready to put the top down. Will try doing it tomorrow. Still no news on the title a week after they said I would have on in hand. I don’t think this is a good sign. I’ll give them a call tomorrow. Getting antsy to drive this thing and put some miles on it. That’s it for now. Ed

Edited October 2, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Took some time off from the White............only worked on it for three hours over the weekend. Today we had an interesting experience. Decided to do a compression check......car has about three hours on the engine now. It had 64-65 lbs across the board when we checked it before start up. That was “wet”, and we were quite happy with it. Today, we did another test..........and we had unexpected results. 80-81 lbs across the board. Remember, this is a 103 year old factory engine......it’s never been apart. I have never seen compression readings like that on any early car......never mind an original engine. Just curious what others think of these numbers. I was ecstatic at 65 and 50 would have been fine on a four cylinder Cadillac. Thoughts? Ed.

Edited October 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Maybe you need new glasses and the eight was really a six? 

[1912Staver]

Rich running carbon build up ? T Heads are generally quite low compression due to the rather large combustion chamber volume.

 

Greg

[Grimy]

Ed, it may have been carboning up from a rich mixture during the running time, which would reduce the volume of the combustion chambers.  I think you've alluded to that.  What did the plugs look like?  As a rough rule of thumb, I expect compression test readings at *cranking* speeds to be about (compression ratio--shouldn't be more than 4.5 absolute max on this car) x 14.7 psig at sea level; 4.5 x 14.7 = 66.15.

 

I see Greg (1912Staver) beat me to it while I was typing.

 

If that Greenland ice sheet keeps melting the way it has been, you'll be getting closer to absolute sea level every day.

[edinmass]

27 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Maybe you need new glasses and the eight was really a six? 

Nope......two of us each make a pass and take reading independently.

[edinmass]

24 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Ed, it may have been carboning up from a rich mixture during the running time, which would reduce the volume of the combustion chambers.  I think you've alluded to that.  What did the plugs look like?  As a rough rule of thumb, I expect compression test readings at *cranking* speeds to be about (compression ratio--shouldn't be more than 4.5 absolute max on this car) x 14.7 psig at sea level; 4.5 x 14.7 = 66.15.

 

I see Greg (1912Staver) beat me to it while I was typing.

 

If that Greenland ice sheet keeps melting the way it has been, you'll be getting closer to absolute sea level every day.

Had a scope in the cylinders.......no carbon issues then or now. Dual valve would make it breathe better........and 65 was right on the money wet.........it’s a brand new snap on comp kit. Maybe I’ll borrow another from the neighbors.

[Grimy]

You may have flushed out some crud holding the rings with all that gas it drinks 🙂 and thus improving compression.  Most cars of that period had no oil control rings and up to four compression rings per cylinder.

[edinmass]

51 minutes ago, Grimy said:

You may have flushed out some crud holding the rings with all that gas it drinks 🙂 and thus improving compression.  Most cars of that period had no oil control rings and up to four compression rings per cylinder.

I was thinking the rings may have been gummed up.........but the compression number astounds me for the vintage of the car. It has three compression rings, no oil rings. 

[padgett]

I make that about 5.5:1. Interesting. That is straight math, am more used to about 2" less stroke.

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Had a scope in the cylinders.......no carbon issues then or now. Dual valve would make it breathe better........and 65 was right on the money wet.........it’s a brand new snap on comp kit. Maybe I’ll borrow another from the neighbors.

 

The dual valves probably do breathe better. But they will possibly make the combustion chamber  even larger than a 2 valve T Head. Any way you slice it it is hard to get much compression with a T head.

 

Greg

[padgett]

"combustion chamber  even larger than a 2 valve T Head" well not really, back in the early 70s when unleaded was in the near future we experimented with a lozenge shaped valve (no rotation necessary) having two stems/springs. Problem was difficulty to lap but flowed very well.

 

In a T head I can see an oblong valve area allowing a narrow crossflow head with 4 valves rather than two (why a hemi needs boost). Particularly using a dished piston that nearly kissed the head surface.

[yachtflame]

I’ve always been a fan of “self healing machinery” but this is even better!

[gossp]

My guess is some mild oxidation on valves. A little operation will knock that right out. 

[edinmass]

Update:

 

After pounding on this car for the last 8 weeks, Phil and I took a few days off. We got back to it tonight. Windshield is back in. Started to play around with the top........figured out how to fold it. Worried about it holding up. We don’t have a top boot.......it’s going to be a problem. I think it’s safer right now to run it with it up. We did another compression test today, used a different set up, and we got: 80, 81, 80, 80. I would call that pretty consistent. We are going to try dialing in the magneto........and probably swap over to the Zenith. I have a 1917 photo showing I’m missing the air intake tube and choke horn, as well as the choke stove installed by the factory. The plan is to dial it in with the Zenith, and then go back to the White carb. We still have some cleaning to do......and make a gas guage. The car is at the end of the recommissioning process.....it’s now officially in the over road sorting process. Still no answer from the state on my paperwork. It’s looking like it’s going to be a sxxt show. The only good point is the courthouse is less than a mile from my driveway, so showing up every day to piss them off is certainly an option. I’ll give them a few more days, then I’m going to get ugly. Easy for me to do! It feels good the car is basically done. Now the check list is very short, and more finesse than repairs. Time to put miles on it. 👍

Edited October 8, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)