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The phone rang... and then the next car adventure starts


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25 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

DUHC................Dual Under Head Cams

I'll try that!  When I'm at informal groupings like show-n-shines with my 1918 Pierce T-head dual valve, I rather enjoy telling comparative youngsters, "It's a Twin Cam with 4 valves per cylinder" then seeing their befuddlement when I open the hood....and no cam covers are in sight.

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27 minutes ago, Grimy said:

I'll try that!  When I'm at informal groupings like show-n-shines with my 1918 Pierce T-head dual valve, I rather enjoy telling comparative youngsters, "It's a Twin Cam with 4 valves per cylinder" then seeing their befuddlement when I open the hood....and no cam covers are in sight.

The English Riley is more unusual, twin underhead cams to push rods and rockers with overhead valves. Nice aluminum rocker covers with no cam gears in sight. Bob 

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Ed, of the things we discussed, we didn’t get to the top on the White.

 

Perfect example of damned if you do and damned if you don’t.  If you drive it with top up, it will start to disappear.  If you try to put it down, it will disappear faster.

 

The only way to save it and drive car is to remove completely as is, and set in corner of garage,  if that can be done....if any tracks have to come out, then that damages top too...

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Update:

 

Well........lots of progress. All the tires and wheels are back on, filled the rear end up with oil, replaced the rear spare tire bracket carrier and installed the dual rear spares. Had to disassemble the steering box in order to get the Penrite 00 grease to install......it wouldn’t flow in while heated, or go in by injection, so we removed the cover and placed it inside until the unit was full. Placed the cover back on......and now it’s finished. We finally started to address the timing issue. Decided to start from a baseline. We couldn’t access the flywheel inspection cover.......unless we removed the body off the car........strike number one. So, we pulled the plugs out, and removed the front passenger side valve cover......it comes off with a large thumb screw. We turned the engine over several times observing valve action as well as piston position on number one with a rod. We placed the engine on #1 TDC. Pulled the distribution cover off the magneto, and observed we were off quite a bit. Also determined that two wires were in the wrong position. We then checked to be sure the magneto was turning clockwise from the cap end......and it was. Also checked the firing order by observation of valves  and piston position....I learned a long time ago often published info can not be relied on......just used as a guide. So, we determined that the firing order as published was correct, we got the wires in the correct position. Inspecting the magneto we determined that we are off between 90 and 120 degrees. We were never sure if the Bosch magneto ever actually ran on this car........and from what we determined it has never run on this car. All of this occurred late and we ran out of time.........so tomorrow, we will attempt to get the magneto timed correctly to the engine. After that, it should fire up easily. Expect a video of the engine running Friday evening.........and the first test drive Saturday morning.......IF , and that’s a BIG IF all goes well. Car looks great with the new tubes and proper air pressure in them.....it gained another three inches in overall height. That only leaves the timing, water pump casting cracks and shaft, and a gas tank issue to resolve before we can drive it extensively. 👍

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, SC38DLS said:

Growing three inches means it won’t fit in your trailer anymore!  Hoping everything goes well on the start up! 


Yup.........it’s a let the air out of the tires to haul it somewhere proposition. Or put the top down.......which will probably be the case for now. 
 

Also still need to address the exhaust cut out and windshield glass..........15,000 things down.....about 100 left to deal with. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 9/9/2020 at 1:43 AM, Billy Kingsley said:

I saw a White touring car from 1914 at a museum yesterday...having read this entire thread it gave me much more appreciation for what I was looking at, as I was not really knowledgeable about these cars beforehand. I had seen White trucks before but none of their cars. It was the hardest car to photograph in their entire museum but it was almost entirely pre war. I will post a museum thread in a couple of days. 

Here are a couple of Whites; one in the National Automobile Museum in Reno, and another at the Western Development Museum in Moose Jaw, SK.

 

Craig

10hm103.jpg

11_White_1.jpg

14_White_1.jpg

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39 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

Those are White steam cars.  They made about twice as many steam cars as Stanley did, and were much more sophisticated, but Stanley is the steam car people remember.

 

White made about 10k cars by 1910 when they stopped steam car production and moved to gas.   Stanley made about the same amount but it took them until 1925.   The reason Stanley is so much more well known is that there are next to no running White's left while Stanley's have many many more that are running today.

 

The big difference between a White and a Stanley is way they generate steam.   White had a "flash boiler" that would quickly come up to steam but requires a very sophisticated control system to make sure there is steam when you need it.   The Stanley has a boiler that is heating 10x as much water so that you always have a reserve of steam,  but it takes forever to warm up enough to move.  


Btw,   Jim Crank,  the author of the Doble book says White was the greatest steam car of all time,  not Stanley or Doble.   His reasoning was that they actually produced a workable car.   Doble was stupid expensive and they made all of 35 total cars.   Stanley was overly simple but not very usable by the 1920s.

 

 

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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From about 1907 to 1911 White Automobile Company was the most sophisticated car built in the US. As far as technology goes......there was nothing more complicated, but automated........and it was ALL mechanical controls......White Steam cars used no electricity at all. Everything functioned on mechanically controlled valves.........once started, they were idiot proof......just keep fuel and water in the tank.....which was much easier than a Stanley. I have ridden hundreds of miles in steam cars......both White and Stanley.........with luck, a ride in a Doble is in my future. And, in the next 48 hours, I will drive a White gasoline car for my first time......and the cars first time in about 80 years.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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"If that’s directed at me," - no coined DUHC in a post on the last page, 10 hours ago (I really miss post numbers).

 

Just take a pair of these and snip the top off the "O"...

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Every one of those whites was a very tall car.  Were they expecting people to be wearing top hats when they drove them?  Can hardly wait for the "running video".  I am watching the weather down your way Ed and will still come down when it cools off a bit.  I also hope there are still a few things to do.

'

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White steamer.... while I would love to have a Stanley, particularly a model 735 with the V-radiator,  I would kill to spend a day crawling in, under and around a White. That little compound steam engine looks like an absolute mechanical jewel. A few years ago my students remastered a set of drawings for a 20 hp Stanley engine for the Stanley Museum. (developed 3D models and new shop drawings) If I could ever find an old set of drawings for the White engine (or have an engine sitting in front of me I can take apart, explore and pull measurements off) I would love to do the same.

 

Here is one of the renderings of the complete assembly. 

PHOTO-1.thumb.jpg.121bf773a9f6ae1ccf8364ed9d828e3e.jpg

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Btw,   Jim Crank,  the author of the Doble book says White was the greatest steam car of all time,  not Stanley or Doble.   His reasoning was that they actually produced a workable car.   Doble was stupid expensive and they made all of 35 total cars.   Stanley was overly simple but not very usable by the 1920s.

I wonder what he thought of Brooks steamers.

 

Craig

28_Brooks.jpg

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1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

I wonder what he thought of Brooks steamers.

 

Craig

28_Brooks.jpg


there is a forum member that restored one.  I think it was basically a Stanley.   They had a fabric body to get the weight down but mechanically I believe it was pretty similar.

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JUST ONE COMMENT......IT RUNS!

Take the time and listen to the entire video.......after a long automotive journey, a bit of culture is called for..........It's a beautiful day in the life!

 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Sorry boys........even though I'm a low class Frenchman from the wrong side of the tracks with gasoline in my veins, I still celebrate life's victories with Beethoven or Mozart.......

 

 

I have a HUGE smile on my face right now.......more to come!!!!!🤩

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Music to my ears, and my mind! Incomparable Beethoven and the knowledge that IT RUNS!

I listen to a lot of classical music, including opera. Beethoven is among the best known for very good reasons. Such total mastery over tonal interactions.

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Notice To All Florida Firemen & Police.....please give Ed a pass if you see a cloud of blue smoke coming out of a garage door or a super-antique car speeding a little or failing to use blinkers today. 1st Engine Start-up In a Century Produces a Little Smoke!

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18 minutes ago, yachtflame said:

Ok, so WHERE’s THE VIDEO???

 

Working on it........taken on an android phone, and won't load correctly, might be tomorrow..........working on the car, and burning the midnight oil tonight........need to do a SPEED run tomorrow!

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Actually, good job Ed. I was just giving you s**t to keep you on your toes. We’ve all been following your progress with smiles on our faces. Few of us here would know where to start and certainly wouldn’t have the patience that you’ve been exhibiting for the past month. We’re all learning a lot. Keep up the great work!

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5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Sorry boys........even though I'm a low class Frenchman from the wrong side of the tracks with gasoline in my veins, I still celebrate life's victories with Beethoven or Mozart.......

 

 

I have a HUGE smile on my face right now.......more to come!!!!!🤩

 

Excellent! My late father was the first viola of the RI Philharmonic Orchestra...I grew up with Beethoven and Mozart. But, I'd have chosen Handel's Hallelujah Chorus or maybe the climax of the 1812 Overture.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Ed. although you are a master of all things mechanical I think your directing skills equal your mechanical skills..This entire post has been executed masterfully and your victory post was exquisite.  The video of the motor running will have to go some to beat "ode To Joy"  Congratulations

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Congratulations, Ed.  The ultimate reward for the pursuit, capture, persistence in tackling every problem regardless of how daunting.    Beethoven and Mozart are the perfect music to celebrate this achievement.

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It’s hard to remember.......that since this damn COVID  virus has been the scourge of the globe........killing and infecting the innocent and helpless people of the world, and as we remember our American brothers and sisters that fell on that fateful day on September 11th..........that there is still happiness and joy in our hobby and world. It’s been a long, hard slog through life the past six months..........and the joy and happiness of just starting a car today really brought back the feeling of “Life is good!” It felt strange to have a positive and joyful feeling..............and that is truly an insane statement ............while I never forget that my family and I are blessed with all the benefits of living in the best nation on earth, and we are more fortunate than many others in the world, for the first time in half a year I felt positive, happy, joyful, and everything for just a little while seems right with the world. My lady and I are going out tonight for the first time in six months to celebrate family, friends, cars, and just the plain joy of living.........it was LONG overdue!

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Beethoven and Mozart are great but the sounds of Fats Waller singing "the joint is jumpin , its really jumpin" is more of what I am hearing. 😁

To many years of listening to 78 rpm jazz records from the pre WWII era and going into the west side of NY City at night with my buddy Austin Clark to Jimmy Ryan's jazz club to listen to it live . Congratulations Ed and thanks so much for taking us all along on your journey .............................

Walt

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Update:

 

Thoughts after the start up.

 

Getting the timing right wasn’t difficult......for one reason. 50 years of too much garage time. There was no way to “properly” time the magneto.......simply the adapted drive and the factory drive set up could never assemble in the correct way to make timing and firing order location correct. We played around making sure firing order, valve position, compression stroke, were all as they should be. Once that happened we needed to check on a few other things. It was determined that through a misunderstanding that my trusty helper got two wires in the wrong location on the magneto ............it was partially my writing, and a transposition from one paper to another. We ended up that the mag could only be 90 or 270 degrees off because of the key way on the mag drive. By observation of the rotor position.....which is NOT easy to determine, I reworked the number one position to the number three on the mag, and then  proceeded to wire it normally from there. With everything, tight, complete, and we went over the check list before start three times........past lessons learned........we got the fire extinguishers out.......cleared everything for safety, worked out who would do what in the event of an emergency.......including a running away wide open throttle engine.....(we would shut the run away engine down with halon from the extinguisher ............we put half a bowl of fuel in the carb, primed the intake with some starting fluid.......and then we cranked the engine over.............It sputtered immediately upon cranking over......within one revolution. We both had big smiles now........we knew this sucker was gonna run. We then fully primed the carburetor with the electric pump, and gave it another spin.........ran for about two seconds......I stopped, got a screwdriver, and told Phil, this time I will keep it running till the carb runs out of gas. Hit the starter and applied throttle by hand.......and we had an immediate start up......timing was a bit off........I was checking for oil pressure........we had exactly half way up the guage in seconds......benefits of running the pressure pot to prime the system........and the car ran “ok” for  its first twenty five second run.......I was shouting  Commands to Phil to tweak  the timing while I was making observations and keeping it running. 
Big smiles, a high five, and a little bit of happy feet. We opened the garage door to let the smoke out.......since we over oiled the engine I expected to have a huge cloud of smoke.......it never occurred. The car cleaned out the loaded up top end in less than ten seconds. We decided to take a brake. Fifteen minutes and a bottle of water later, we decided to give it another go. This time with a best guess as to timing. No problem starting the car this time.....fired off like it had been running every day for the last twenty years.......we did a quick on the fly tune.....and ran it thirty five or forty seconds......and shut it down. It ran remarkably smooth.....like it was just tuned up......not with 80 year old plus oil fouled spark plugs. We took another brake, ran some errands, and picked up the shop for a while. We decided to call it a day.........and on the way out the door I turned to Phil and said......one more time.....let’s run it again. This time, I said, I will bring her up to half throttle. He smiled and said I’m in! So again, we lit her up...........and then this time I was going to work the throttle and rev her up and down......determined we had good oil pressure again, then I started rolling the throttle up.......all the dirt in the radiator from the last 80 years pulled through hitting me in the face, tossing dirt in my eyes.........but I kept her going....and revving her up to open the secondary’s on the carburetor.........the place was roaring like a radial aircraft engine was going.......the car is simply an animal.......this thing revs like a 350 Chevy and pulls up and down like it was dialed in...........after shutting it down we were both laughing.......we knew we had a good engine and a great car. Sounded just like a Stutz or Mercer......but the exhaust tone immediately brought the thought of a ALF giant speedster............I can tell you this.......this car is ridiculously powerful........we left the garage walking on air............the next few days are going to be very special. Videos will post tomorrow. We will run it down the road, change the fluids a few times again....engine, trans, and differential. Still need to patch up the water pump before we take it out on the road......the casting is leaking that bad..........no worries.......we WILL make it happen. 🎉🍾👍🎊

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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