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On 8/28/2020 at 9:39 AM, Walt G said:

I LOVE THE 120!!! Owned a 1941 "120 " station wagon for 30 years and drove it everywhere, so yes I know and have owned the cars under discussion. Great cars but just not a classic. IMHO.

At the risk of getting shot, I would have only nominated the open model and the station wagon Packard 120's, as both have a degree of exclusivity, despite being part of the low-end line.   The 120 sedans did their job by selling in good numbers and thereby successfully getting Packard through the depression.

 

Craig

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Hey Craig

No you won't get shot, maybe 🙄 . But usually when a classification is made and accepted it is for an entire series of cars which includes all body styles. this happened with the Buick 70 series Roadmaster  cars - not just the open cars and station wagons were accepted. There already are some Packards that are the `120  ' series that are full classics, but these all have custom coachwork , so it is on that merit that they were considered and accepted. Many are the Rollston//Rollson bodied town cars which were built in more proliferation in the 1936-41 era because the wealthy wanted a town car but not one that was "in your face" to all the people in the Depression that had no job . 

Walt

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On 9/4/2020 at 9:13 AM, 8E45E said:

Look what happened to Cadillac and Lincoln when they broadened their cars to be more mainstream by cheapening the quality of materials in the 1970's and '80's, and losing their exclusivity as a result.   Mercedes Benz and Rolls-Royce always maintained theirs, and still remain a benchmark when it comes to the luxury class.   

 

Craig

By the way, I believe this "limited" allows for better values - the Cadillac Club (and same with Lincoln and ....) covers a lot of ground and while something for everyone it is just too broad a span of different models.   I am interested in Pre-WWII RR cars and really did not care to wade through 90% other topics in Club publication (no matter how nice their publication) to find the few Pre-WWII car topics that interested me.  

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5 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

By the way, I believe this "limited" allows for better values - the Cadillac Club (and same with Lincoln and ....) covers a lot of ground and while something for everyone it is just too broad a span of different models.   I am interested in Pre-WWII RR cars and really did not care to wade through 90% other topics in Club publication (no matter how nice their publication) to find the few Pre-WWII car topics that interested me.  

I accidently received a copy of the Lincoln Continental Owners Club's monthly magazine in error. (Cornerstone registration's mix-up with other clubs I belong to.)  I know VERY WELL the point you are making after reading through it.  Too much diversity in postwar years to even call some of them a 'Lincoln" in the same class they had been prior to World War II, especially 1970's & newer cars.  Cadillac moved even lower class with a J-body version.  80 years from now, and provided the CCCA is still around adding older cars to their list, current Cadillacs and Lincolns don't deserve to be included, where the Maybachs, some Mercedes Benzes, BMW's, Audis, Rolls-Royces and Bentley from early 21st Century will be.

 

Craig

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15 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I accidently received a copy of the Lincoln Continental Owners Club's monthly magazine in error. (Cornerstone registration's mix-up with other clubs I belong to.)  I know VERY WELL the point you are making after reading through it.  Too much diversity in postwar years to even call some of them a 'Lincoln" in the same class they had been prior to World War II, especially 1970's & newer cars.  Cadillac moved even lower class with a J-body version.  80 years from now, and provided the CCCA is still around adding older cars to their list, current Cadillacs and Lincolns don't deserve to be included, where the Maybachs, some Mercedes Benzes, BMW's, Audis, Rolls-Royces and Bentley from early 21st Century will be.

 

Craig

That point too, though the point I was more making is that the Franklin club covers some 30 years, ACD Club for the most point covers 36 years, the Pierce Arrow Club covers about the same, The Packard Club covers 60 years, The Lincoln Club covers roughly 100 years, the Cadillac Club over 100 years, The Rolls-Royce Club the same, and ...  - it is just too much diversity when I want to read pre-WWII issues.  There are actually CCCA issues that I have little interest in too - the editor does not hit topics of interest to me via some particular issue.  There are some great quality cars post war cars too and some wonderful styling - and I own post war cars too (I just choose not to read about then much).  As a friend said - every Club should focus on what they do best and hone that.   The CCCA has yet to own its own backyard in the cars that it currently serves and expansion over owning your own backyard (ex. I doubt they have 40% of the owners of the cars they currently cover as members) has historically not been the best strategy. 

 

Sidenote: As to the Junior cars - I suggested a Junior Club (Club within a Club) if they are dead set on trying it and see how that goes first.  AKA: Perhaps they resources are not there to own their own backyard or ....

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On 9/5/2020 at 9:33 AM, John_Mereness said:

By the way, I believe this "limited" allows for better values - the Cadillac Club (and same with Lincoln and ....) covers a lot of ground and while something for everyone it is just too broad a span of different models.   I am interested in Pre-WWII RR cars and really did not care to wade through 90% other topics in Club publication (no matter how nice their publication) to find the few Pre-WWII car topics that interested me.  

 

Agreed. I am a longtime member of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club, but I don't go to their events often because there are so few early cars and the later cars are just so different.  

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6 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Agreed. I am a longtime member of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club, but I don't go to their events often because there are so few early cars and the later cars are just so different.  

I had an interesting conversation with a long time member of the local vintage sports car club here.  As a very long time owner of vintage MG's and Triumphs, along with other members in the club, driving was very much encouraged.  The adage is the same today, but now that same club is being overrun by members with '80's and '90's Porsches, etc., where their happiest cruising speed is in excess of 70mph.  With the exception of Jaguars and Austin Healey's not too many of the 4-cylinder MG's and Triumphs from the 1950's were engineered for that, and consequently, fewer are seen out on regular cruises with that club today.

 

Craig 

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10 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

I had an interesting conversation with a long time member of the local vintage sports car club here.  As a very long time owner of vintage MG's and Triumphs, along with other members in the club, driving was very much encouraged.  The adage is the same today, but now that same club is being overrun by members with '80's and '90's Porsches, etc., where their happiest cruising speed is in excess of 70mph.  With the exception of Jaguars and Austin Healey's not too many of the 4-cylinder MG's and Triumphs from the 1950's were engineered for that, and consequently, fewer are seen out on regular cruises with that club today.

 

Craig 

 

 

You see the same thing on CCCA Caravans where the cars lean towards the 40s and rare is there something pre 1930.   

 

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6 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Agreed. I am a longtime member of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club, but I don't go to their events often because there are so few early cars and the later cars are just so different.  

 

Yeah, I bugged out of the CLC for a variety of reasons, but one of them was having a conversation at the national while standing next to my 1929 Cadillac talking to a guy who drove his 1996 Fleetwood who told me, "I like the Fleetwood because I love the feel of an antique car on the road." Um, OK.

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Yeah, I bugged out of the CLC for a variety of reasons, but one of them was having a conversation at the national while standing next to my 1929 Cadillac talking to a guy who drove his 1996 Fleetwood who told me, "I like the Fleetwood because I love the feel of an antique car on the road." Um, OK.

 

I dropped out of the Mercedes club for the same reason.    When the 75% of the club is made up of cars made after 1980 I'm not really going to find too many kindred souls.

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5 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I dropped out of the Mercedes club for the same reason.    When the 75% of the club is made up of cars made after 1980 I'm not really going to find too many kindred souls.

Yep, seems to be the theme and problem (and I have a really broad interest in cars - Gene Perkins pulled me aside years ago and said "I know you like sports cars and I like them too, but as long as I am able I hope to bring pre-WWII cars out and I hope you will always do the same thing"). This is also the problem with many shows - I can often times show up in an Auburn and everything else shows up in their X that is 20 years newer (and I have a nice time, but usually the next time I probably will show up without a car and just walk around).   Basically, for lack of a better expression "like things attract." 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

You see the same thing on CCCA Caravans where the cars lean towards the 40s and rare is there something pre 1930.   

 

 

I've not yet done a Caravan, but maybe they should give some kind of recognition (not sure what it would mean, but stay with me) for bringing earlier cars.  Like some recognition for driving a 30s car instead of a 40s car, and double recognition for driving a 20s car.  Maybe you don't want to do that because you don't want people to feel bad bringing their '47 Cadillacs and Packards, as just showing up is the most important part, but it does seem (from the published lists) that the mix of Caravan cars is skewed by the practicalities of the later cars.

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8 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

I've not yet done a Caravan, but maybe they should give some kind of recognition (not sure what it would mean, but stay with me) for bringing earlier cars.  Like some recognition for driving a 30s car instead of a 40s car, and double recognition for driving a 20s car.  Maybe you don't want to do that because you don't want people to feel bad bringing their '47 Cadillacs and Packards, as just showing up is the most important part, but it does seem (from the published lists) that the mix of Caravan cars is skewed by the practicalities of the later cars.

 

Orin,    Ed will wave to you from his 1929 car as he passes your 1934 car.  What more recognition do you need?

 

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21 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I dropped out of the Mercedes club for the same reason.    When the 75% of the club is made up of cars made after 1980 I'm not really going to find too many kindred souls.

This reminds me of going to see a good old rock band like The Who, or the Rolling Stones.  They've made enough records to span nearly three generations, and its a difficult mix at a concert with those who remember them from the first wave of the British Invasion, and the younger, screaming fans who remembered them from the later eighties.  

 

Many of these bands do a two night concert.  I have suggested from time to time, one night could be for a "40+" audience playing songs from their early albums with one or two new ones thrown in, and the second night for the 'Under 20's' with all the new stuff, and maybe an older tune randomly inserted to remind the young audience they aren't spring chickens.  Perhaps one-marque car clubs may want to have two separate events; one day or night exclusively for Pre-war cars, and then a second day, or evening for all the 'modern iron'.  Even a particular 'theme show', geared to certain years or emphasize styling themes such as the Cadillac club hosting a "Fin Night"  for 1948-'64 Cadillacs, etc., or an SL night for the Mercedes Benz club.  That might generate some interest and keep everyone happy.

 

Craig

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I have had some ideas and suggestions ( that were for the most part ignored ) for a way to possibly satisfy all eras of cars. Perhaps plan a tour to focus on the vintage of the cars invited to participate

an "earlier classic" tour for 1915-1932 cars and a "later era" tour for 1933 - 1948 era cars.  There used to be car tours and car shows like that here on long island for decades until they became "watered down" because the 'powers that be'  that organized and ran them at varying degrees of sensibility and success felt they could do what they wanted because they ruled the roost. Ya can't please everyone - some people will always feel left out and excluded , but I have found many times in the past 50+ years that they are also the ones who never ever volunteer to help out or come up with practical/doable plans.

In 1988 I was on the team , along with Austin Clark , that organized and ran a driving tour and dinner to honor the 100th Anniversary of the Vanderbilt Cup races , and we drove over most of the original route as possible. 1938 was a cut off date to enter a car , we had 100 vehicles show up - from full classics to hi wheel IHC wagons, some perfectly restored cars , many original cars that only saw new tires and restoration to keep them on the road. The Helck family even brought over "Old 16" to participate and they drove it on the tour!

It can happen to most peoples satisfaction to have a good time but you have to be creative and yes, "think out of the box".  To many people and clubs have tunnel vision, or excuses why not to do something.

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On 9/8/2020 at 8:51 AM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Yeah, I bugged out of the CLC for a variety of reasons, but one of them was having a conversation at the national while standing next to my 1929 Cadillac talking to a guy who drove his 1996 Fleetwood who told me, "I like the Fleetwood because I love the feel of an antique car on the road." Um, OK.

Matt: That is the juncture where you tell him to "get in, we'll take a ride".   You get to enjoy the look of consternation when he realizes how a genuine antique car sounds and feels compared to the same make decades removed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So all the noise about the board considering more as classics will always elicit strong opinions. The board is sticking their toe in the water rather than jumping in! Fact is there are several models  considered including Centurys Zephyrs Cad 61 series and Lasalles, maybe some others. I would have preferred all at once rather than a dribble .One person responded with a NO because they ignored the Century ! Cold hard fact is CCCA is gradually shrinking to almost half it's high. I really don't see the harm in admitting quality cars within the existing year range

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I've read all of the posts and I would offer some ideas and ask some questions about Classic Cars and the hobby.  I am interested in Brass Era cars and the Horseless Carriage club has maintained the pre 1916 cut off date for national tours and I don't know for sure but they seem to be doing well as a club.  When I owned Chevrolets the Vintage Chevrolet Club had tours for the early cars, four cyl up to 1928, early six cyl up to 1954 and those events were popular.

 

As for the CCCA cars I have friends who have them and they are beautiful, but I rarely see them on the road.  A few years back I attended a large car show sponsored  by a well known Classic collector.  I expected to see his friends attend with their Classics but there were none, just a regular car show, I was disappointed.  I have not seen a Caravan.  A friend offered to sell me his '31 Lincoln but I do not know what I would do with it.  I could have it judged by the AACA and after two showings I would have a Senior Award but then what?

 

I already own a 1939 Buick Century, a sedan with dual side mounted spare tires in black, but there are many events I can attend and would not likely join the CCCA just because I could.

 

Stay well, Gary

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I think CCCA is shrinking in membership because of many of the things stated here - cost to attend events, attitude towards families with kids attending , location of events ( last time there was an annual meeting in the North East was when it was in Boston - that was 14 years ago! ) I will not go on..................adding more cars to attract non members who own same is not the answer . Some creative "out of the box" thinking is needed.

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On the positive CCCA note (due to discussions like this that often bring out the negative) - some of the Regions are really great (Indianapolis for example) and I know it is probably hard for people to "break the ice" in Regions where they may not know any people or many of the people (just as with any club or even a move to a new neighborhood or a job change), but helps to get a car out on occasion and also to attend more than one Regional meeting or two a year.  And the magazine really is quite nice too.  

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On 9/18/2020 at 8:40 AM, cxgvd said:

I've read all of the posts and I would offer some ideas and ask some questions about Classic Cars and the hobby.  I am interested in Brass Era cars and the Horseless Carriage club has maintained the pre 1916 cut off date for national tours and I don't know for sure but they seem to be doing well as a club.  When I owned Chevrolets the Vintage Chevrolet Club had tours for the early cars, four cyl up to 1928, early six cyl up to 1954 and those events were popular.

 

As for the CCCA cars I have friends who have them and they are beautiful, but I rarely see them on the road.  A few years back I attended a large car show sponsored  by a well known Classic collector.  I expected to see his friends attend with their Classics but there were none, just a regular car show, I was disappointed.  I have not seen a Caravan.  A friend offered to sell me his '31 Lincoln but I do not know what I would do with it.  I could have it judged by the AACA and after two showings I would have a Senior Award but then what?

 

I already own a 1939 Buick Century, a sedan with dual side mounted spare tires in black, but there are many events I can attend and would not likely join the CCCA just because I could.

 

Stay well, Gary

The point is justice.  That '39 Buick is bigger, faster and more powerful than any Packard 120, which is equal to a '39 Buick Special.  So, then, why are they pushing the Packard 120, the Cadillac 61 and of all things the Lincoln Zephyr which I found could pull the hat off your head from a stop light, but not mentioning other equal or better cars such as the Buick Century and the LaSalle?  I voted NO on the Packard 120 because in light of their suggested cars, it is not qualified without all of the cars it competed with.  The CCCA certainly doesn't want to be known as the Classic Packard Club of America, and I've heard people say that.

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Interesting discussion.  When you cannot support a CCCA club in a city of 4 million filled with classic cars (Houston) I think the handwriting is on the wall.  When I lived in the panhandle I belonged to the Florida North region (can't remember their name) and it was the most aloof club I have ever belonged to.  I haven't been a member since I moved to Texas 12 years ago and not being a member makes me very happy.  There in lies the problem with declining membership but that is just my perspective.  BTW one of my cars scored 100 points over 20 years after it's restoration.

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  • 1 month later...
On 9/9/2020 at 10:19 AM, Walt G said:

In 1988 I was on the team , along with Austin Clark , that organized and ran a driving tour and dinner to honor the 100th Anniversary of the Vanderbilt Cup races , and we drove over most of the original route as possible. 1938 was a cut off date to enter a car , we had 100 vehicles show up - from full classics to hi wheel IHC wagons, some perfectly restored cars , many original cars that only saw new tires and restoration to keep them on the road. The Helck family even brought over "Old 16" to participate and they drove it on the tour!

It can happen to most peoples satisfaction to have a good time but you have to be creative and yes, "think out of the box".  To many people and clubs have tunnel vision, or excuses why not to do something.

 

I think you must mean 80th Anniversary of the Vanderbilt Cup. I don't think they were running it in 1888.

That was the most memorable old car even I've ever attended. I drove my 1910 REO from Rhode Island...it took 3 days - one day down, the Saturday of the show and Sunday to get home again. I've a clear memory of Old 16 running...and the ground shaking if you were standing near it.

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I don't think that CCCA needs to add more marginal vehicles. It will add very few new members as many of these cars are owned

by existing members. It will further dilute the club and the values for which it once stood. There are already plenty of clubs for mediocre

cars. Trying to be all things for all people leaves you being nothing special for anyone.  Reference the prior right on comments about the

CLC.

 

Sure Caravans cost money. But they don't cost any more than nice vacations. Who wants to ship their car across the country and back, take a week

off from work, and spend the time in the cheapest motels around?  The Caravans are the absolute best deal around. The places we have gained entry

to and the wonderful friends we have made along the way make this club a must join. If you don't go on the Caravans you are missing out.

 

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I  am a Buick man with mostly 1933 series 90 vehicles and a 1933 series 80 unit. All are listed now as full classics. Yet, for these 90s and 80s they made so few and the wheelbase is very long, being 130 WB for the 80 series and 138 WB for a 90 series. A Packard 120 is a great automobile that helped Packard survive. Yet, these Model 120 vehicles were manufactured in large numbers and being large they are still much shorter than the big Packard automobiles. The Packard 120 cars were a great car at a great price and somewhat affordable with a price range similar to a Buick Century.  Yet Buick and other manufacturers also made great cars during this era. Why do these Packard vehicles get the attention over and above other manufacturers? I thought the Packard 110 and 120 was generated by Packard to keep from going into receivership as they could not keep afloat on just the expensive cars. If these 120 vehicles were added to the CCCA then why not bring the other manufactures in the same price range and same wheelbase into CCCA ?  I thought one of the reasons for the initial organization of CCCA was to include vehicle models into CCCA due in part to the  few units made of the model that was a member of the CCCA. Does adding Packard 120 vehicles take away from the original reason CCCA was organized? 

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Here is something else to think about - does this years lack of activity to any club make it more or less valuable to the membership (ie they just learned for a whole year that they can do without X) ?  I only mention this as I see pretty much the same people here on these forum pages and not like a herd is flocking to the door.  

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I have never been interested in the CCCA. I have never owned a car that is on the CCCA's approved list. Since I am about to become the owner of a car that is on the CCCA's approved list, I thought that I would do a little bit of research and consider if I should think about joining it. I happened to check out this forum today and read this topic since I saw it was started by my friend Earl Beauchamp. I find that the comments in this discussion seem to fairly well reinforce the opinion I have of the CCCA due to everything I have ever heard about the club on the forum and at other antique car events over the past nearly quarter of a century.

 

I agree with Earl that the Buick Century (I have a 1937 Century and a 1938 Century) is far superior to the Packard 120. I don't think that adding the Packard 120 will help the CCCA with it's declining membership problem. I also feel that adding the Packard 120 while excluding Buicks such as the Century which is much more in the spirit of the CCCA's Mission Statement will only serve to further alienate potential new members like me. When you demonstrate that just because something is a Packard it is perceived by the club as superior to a clearly superior Buick, you alienate a lot of Buick folks.  

 

I bought my first antique car in 1996 and joined AACA. A friend introuduced me to a local AACA member who invited me to a meeting. I took my son to his first local car club meeting in a baby carrier. Both my now 32 years old son and my now 22 year old daughter grew up in the hobby. I am lucky that I have always found AACA to be welcoming to our entire family on both a local and a national level. I would suggest that if CCCA wants to grow it needs to give a lot of thought to how it focuses on developing a welcoming spirit among folks at all levels of the club at all events. It takes some effort to welcome new potential members. It takes very little effort to alienate potential new members. A lot of the examples in this discussion really needs to be focused on by the CCCA leadership.     

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1 minute ago, MCHinson said:

I would suggest that if CCCA wants to grow it needs to give a lot of thought to how it focuses on developing a welcoming spirit among folks at all levels of the club at all events. It takes some effort to welcome new potential members. It takes very little effort to alienate potential new members. A lot of the examples in this discussion really needs to be focused on by the CCCA leadership.  

That's exactly the focus of a long rant I sent to the entire CCCA BOD in May 2013.  It hasn't helped....  I do enjoy the NorCal Region of CCCA and have to belong to National to be a member of the region.

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How to get new CCCA members?

 

Current CCCA members could:

 

[1]. Require that as a condition of a sale of their vehicles down the road (including their Estate) the buyer must join as a CCCA member before the purchase;

 

[2]. Threaten their children with being disinherited unless they join CCCA and  can pass a detailed and rigorous test on the engine maintenance of the vehicle and the car's history;

 

[3]. Place an AD in FACEBOOK that they will donate $1,000 to a tax deductible college if the college can show that at least 10 members of their staff (professors and or any other employee) join CCCA for at least 3 years;

 

[4]. Threaten their grandchildren with being disinherited unless they join CCCA and  can pass a detailed and more rigorous test on the transmission makeup, body part identification, and engine maintenance of the vehicle and the car's history.

 

I like #2 and #4 the best. 

 

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All car clubs are facing the same problems.  The AACA hedges the issue by allowing modern cars in.   There will be shrinking and consolidation of the clubs.   I belong to somewhere between 8-12 clubs depending on which ones my wife remembers to pay my dues for.   They all have the same issues.

 

Btw,   the 85 bucks for yearly dues is a bargain for the newsletter and magazines.   

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On 8/11/2020 at 11:19 AM, John_Mereness said:

I am not sure the politics have changed as I heard an awful lot about the politics even as a kid, but perhaps another 40 years of the politics has driven people further from participation.   I will say something though, when I would go to a show as a kid and there were countless pre-WWII cars and I loved every second, but these days there tends to be few and sometimes I am the only one (now I tend to be more Concours focus as that seems to be where the density of earlier cars are showing up). 

 

By the way, we have a great local British Car Club (and Austin Healey Club too) - every month (excepting this year) is a pot luck at someones house and or a tour to someones collection, a museum, or some restaurant (and they try to keep expenses down too).  There is a core that I have know forever and they are very welcoming, but there is also a divide and I think that is caused by my having the most expensive cars in the group.   We have a good JCNA chapter too.   I also hear our regional AACA is fun these days too via Tom Muth.  Indianapolis CCCA is great, but does involve a 4 hours of driving as Cincinnati-Indianapolis is 2 hours (and the next nearest chapter is your region and that is 4 hours of driving one way).   That said, life seems to eat more time and my memberships have dropped to near nothing as I was going to very few things via being able to find time.  

John,

 

Jumping in a little late but still love to have you and your parents join us on a Southern Ohio Chapter tour. We had tours this year every month but April as we figured out Covid. Did picnics and stops at outdoor parks and scenic overlooks. Last year we got Matt and his family on our Ohio Region Fall we hosted in Cincinnati. In 2021 the Canton Chapter is “rehosting “ the Spring tour in Wooster hopefully. Matt planned to go last year before it was canceled so hopefully we can all go. Very reasonable cost and Canton has had it planned now since last May. 
 

Tom Muth

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On 11/30/2020 at 8:46 PM, tomcarnut said:

John,

 

Jumping in a little late but still love to have you and your parents join us on a Southern Ohio Chapter tour. We had tours this year every month but April as we figured out Covid. Did picnics and stops at outdoor parks and scenic overlooks. Last year we got Matt and his family on our Ohio Region Fall we hosted in Cincinnati. In 2021 the Canton Chapter is “rehosting “ the Spring tour in Wooster hopefully. Matt planned to go last year before it was canceled so hopefully we can all go. Very reasonable cost and Canton has had it planned now since last May. 
 

Tom Muth

Tom, let's exchange a note outside of here and yes, we can do that for this year to start.

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