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10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

They added the 70 Series Buicks two or three years ago thanks to the efforts of our friend Earl Beauchamp. That added a significant number of cars. Before that, it was the 1915-1924 expansion that happened perhaps 5-6 years ago. So it has expanded several times recently where a great many cars were added. Yet the number of members continues to decline. 


More cars doesn't solve their problem. 

 

As far a removing cars, I guess they can do whatever they want, although kicking people out of a club who otherwise didn't do anything wrong doesn't really do anything to make people want to be a part of that club. Why join if the people in charge might decide your car doesn't measure up after all and kick you out?

 

 

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Only the 1940 and 1941 Buick Series 70 were accepted.  Those two years saw the last of the 4-door convertibles. The 1941 standard engine outpowered all other cars being sold.  Packard offered an optional head that brought its horsepower up to level and Cadillac was 15 horsepower behind.  Buick bodies were shared with Cadillac 62, as were Pontiac and Oldsmobile; however they did not have the advanced engineering of Buick.  The 1941 Cadillac 60-S was in a class all it's own and very beautiful.  And, Cadillac's did have an automatic transmission they shared with Oldsmobile.  1942 Buick shared the 1941 engineering and again outstripped the competition, but they went with much more modern, streamlined styling that lasted through 1948 and they dropped their engineering lead in 1946.  Because of that I cannot find justification for them.  Cadillac and Packard remained with staid styling through 1947.  It's all about equals.  That's my opinion.  Over the years since 1973, I've worked for Buick because they were a much better car that some that were accepted in the early 1950s.  I never expected them to increase membership much. That wasn't the point.  I believe they would have if accepted in the earlier days, but by now their ardent admirers are very old, like me.  I'm almost 82 years old now and it's much harder for me to participate.  I do still tour occasionally and $6-7000 would sure hold me back.  That seems wasteful to me.  However, typically tours I go on for a week cost me about $2,000 or a couple of hundred more, same as going to Hershey or the AACA National Meeting in Philadelphia. 

 

Edited by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)
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Earl , you second quote about the Buicks is spot on. I was on the Classification committee when the 70 series Buick was being considered.  I pointed out that with the possible exception of the front clip(sheet metal fenders) and chassis  everything else on the car was already being used on cars that were full classics. The engine etc was the series 90 Limited as were the grille, headlamp rims, etc. The bodies and interior hardware were all shared with series 62 Cadillac. I proved that when at the 2015 CCCA annual meeting in Georgia a great guy from Florida was upset that his handle for his front seat to adjust it was worn and would not work - I told him that when I got home I would remove the one on my car and look at the casting number - we did this to his and I made a note of the number. They are the same part exactly, same number ! He found a replacement NOS and was very happy.

I want CCCA to continue to be a viable part of the car scene, hope that there can be changes made in costs ,as well as acceptance and attitude towards people who want to join but have families that will bring along their kids and not have to exclude them, I hope this happens soon - that they read what has been sated here and take it to heart.  One can only hope ......................................WEG

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On 8/7/2020 at 10:03 AM, Matt Harwood said:

 

It has changed, John. It isn't the club or the hobby you and I enjoyed in the '70s and '80s with our parents. I recall doing all those same great events with all the same great cars and everyone driving the cars was the age I am today (50), everyone had kids, everyone worked to make it fun, and it was wonderful. The reason I love touring as much as I do is because we had wonderful times between, say, 1978 and 1986, before I could even drive. I still love waking up early before the day's events start and going out to the parking lot to see all the sleeping cars covered in dew. I love listening to all of them coming to life as we get ready to move out. I love catching a glimpse of another car just around the next bend as if I was discovering something new.

I am not sure the politics have changed as I heard an awful lot about the politics even as a kid, but perhaps another 40 years of the politics has driven people further from participation.   I will say something though, when I would go to a show as a kid and there were countless pre-WWII cars and I loved every second, but these days there tends to be few and sometimes I am the only one (now I tend to be more Concours focus as that seems to be where the density of earlier cars are showing up). 

 

By the way, we have a great local British Car Club (and Austin Healey Club too) - every month (excepting this year) is a pot luck at someones house and or a tour to someones collection, a museum, or some restaurant (and they try to keep expenses down too).  There is a core that I have know forever and they are very welcoming, but there is also a divide and I think that is caused by my having the most expensive cars in the group.   We have a good JCNA chapter too.   I also hear our regional AACA is fun these days too via Tom Muth.  Indianapolis CCCA is great, but does involve a 4 hours of driving as Cincinnati-Indianapolis is 2 hours (and the next nearest chapter is your region and that is 4 hours of driving one way).   That said, life seems to eat more time and my memberships have dropped to near nothing as I was going to very few things via being able to find time.  

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Well, here's a bit of an opposing view.  Sometimes Clubs do place too much attention on expenses. But those that do not go out of operation.

I don't like National Clubs "making money" off tours. However, these tours require considerable effort to put together and I deeply appreciate

the energy volunteers put in. Tours have become more expensive than they were in the good old 60's, 70's or even 80's, but so has everything

else. I bought my first home in the mid 60's for ten grand. When folks take time off from work and ship their cars across the country for a tour,

they really don't want to stay in cheap motels. I guess that those who tour these days have decided that these tours are more valuable than overpriced

sports events, golf or other expensive claims on our time.

 

I have been on about 15 Carvans over the last ten years. Through them I have made incredible friends, visted wonderful places that I would have never

gone to and had the opportunity to share my Classics with countless folks across the country. If you haven't taken up this opportunity, you should.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Received my E-mail survey from the CCCA this evening regarding the 120. Vote yes or no. Voted no, obviously.

 

 

THE CCCA NATIONAL BOARD NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU

 

Up for consideration is the Packard 120 Series to be granted Full Classic® Status.

 

We Really need your opinion!

 

P120_1937.jpg

 

 

 

Question to ALL members:

 

Should the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 (designated Packard Eight in 1938 and 1939) be granted Full Classic status by the Classic Car Club of America?

 

 

1935P_120.jpg

 

The subject of whether the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 automobiles should be granted Full Classic status has been shared with the membership through articles in the CCCA Bulletin. A number of written and emailed responses were received which were about evenly divided on the question. 

 

Arguments opposed to the inclusion of the 120 Packards include the fact that it takes the CCCA classification standards further into ‘down market’ upper middle price volume production territory.  

 

Arguments in favor include the fact that the entire luxury automotive market was moving away from individually constructed wood framed luxury cars into more mass produced well appointed upper middle class higher volume offerings such as the 62 Series Cadillacs, plus potential membership gain for the club.

 

Before moving forward to address this question further,  your Board of Directors, in concert with the Classification Committee would like to take advantage of a new outreach method offered by our new website of being able to, virtually cost free, to poll the membership on any subject.

 

Therefore, the following question is posed to our members:

 

Should the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 (designated Packard Eight in 1938 and 1939) be granted Full Classic status by the Classic Car Club of America?

 

1941_P_120.jpgP120_1939.jpg

 

Please vote YES or NO by clicking the button below. A short comment space is provided.

 

We look forward to a significant response to this email to provide guidance to your club Officers and Directors. 

 

Thank you,

 

Chris Bock

Classification Chair

 

Steve Babinsky

President

                                                                                                                       

BELOW IS A BRIEF OVERVIEW THE PACKARD 120 SERIES

 

 

An Introduction to the Packard One Twenty

Introduced in January 1935 as part of the Twelfth Series, the Packard One Twenty represented a genuine Packard in every detail, including a smooth-running eight-cylinder engine, high-quality interior appointments, and superb build quality – only in a smaller form. It was available in a broad array of body styles, all powered by the 110 bhp L-head inline eight-cylinder engine, and offered at a price range between $980 and $1,095. It proved an immediate success with consumers.

The following year, the Fourteenth Series, the engine was enlarged to 282 cubic inches, allowing for an output of 120 bhp and an improved top speed of 85 mph, and a convertible sedan was added to the line. For 1937’s Fifteenth Series, hydraulic brakes were introduced and the One Twenty moved further upmarket with the introduction of the six-cylinder One Ten.

Packard briefly dropped the One Twenty nomenclature for 1938’s Sixteenth Series, referring to the model as simply the Eight; it replaced what had previously been the smallest senior line. The name returned for 1939’s Seventeenth Series, and the following season became hyphenated, with the longest-wheelbase variants dropped in favored of a pared-down roster of convertibles, coupes, and sedans on a 127-inch platform. This line continued through 1942’s abbreviated Twentieth Series; for that season, only the convertible coupe was offered on the 127-inch-wheelbase chassis, while other styles moved to a shorter 120-inch frame. In all, 234,845 examples of the One Twenty were produced prior to World War II.

 


Prewar Production (Standard Catalogue / Encyclopedia of American Cars / Kimes)

1935 24,995 / 24,995 / 24,995
1936 55,042 / 55,042 / 55,042
1937 50,100 / 50,100 / 50,100
1938 22,624 / 22,624 / 22,624
1939 17,647 / 17,647 / 17,647
1940 28,138 / 28,138 / 28,138
1941 17,100 / est. 17,000 / 17,100
1942 19,199 / 19,199 / 19,199
234,845

 

 

 

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION

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"Potential membership growth for the club"  that is what it is all about , plain and simple. These cars were discussed in 2015 at length by the Classification Committee - I was on it at that time  - what has changed? I LOVE THE 120!!! Owned a 1941 "120 " station wagon for 30 years and drove it everywhere, so yes I know and have owned the cars under discussion. Great cars but just not a classic. IMHO.

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I voted "no" on this, although, like Walt G, I love the 120.  It's just a different kind of car. 

 

On the broader issue of CCCA policies, and in particular Matt Harwood's comments, I would add two thoughts:

 

1) As someone roughly Matt's age, who also has young kids,  the whole idea of a caravan sounds wonderful but completely impossible for a working family.  It's a retiree kind of event, for those who have the time to do it.  I can sometimes do a nearby tour for one day, and maybe the stars align and I get two days, but the idea of having more dedicated time to drive around just isn't in the cards.  So I have been a member for 13 years but never have been on a caravan.

 

2) I know Matt is talking about national events, but let me add a point about regions.  I have moved twice in the last three years, and that has exposed me to three different regions in three years.   I'd just add that every region is different, and a few friendly people can make all the difference.  In my current region, Northern California, the CCCA members couldn't have been more friendly in welcoming our family (with two little kids).  At the region's annual luncheon, the kids ate free; everyone was super understanding about the kids running around; several members made a point of saying how great it was to have a family there with young kids; and one member invited the kids to sit in the back of his Packard to see what it was like (which they did and really enjoyed).  They couldn't have been more welcoming.  

 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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1935 Packard, your comments are realistic and make sense. Your kids will remember the invite to sit in the Packard forever. I did this as well within the past few months for the three early teens sons of a friend in the local Buick club. Invited them when they were here to sit in both my full classics a 1930 Packard touring car and a 1940 Buick conv sedan. Their Dad is a friend but his oldest car is a 1965 Buick. If there is a Caravan perhaps even a day or one overnight experience should be made available - sure extra planning , work etc but is it worth it? There are a lot of people who may view this and think "been there ( with kids) done that " and don't want to experience it again - well the kids are the future of the car collecting hobby be it a full classic or not. Encouragement and support will generate enthusiasm - perhaps if that thought is spread in CCCA they would see a slight increase in participation. Read what Matt has said when he attended national activities with his family ........................... very few kids due to the cost . If you seek "potential membership growth for the club" you have to make it appealing to all ages, if people participate as a family most of the "kids" already have great respect for the cars their parents appreciate , they see that every day and will act no different at an organized event.

THe "120" are great cars , but not full classics and as mentioned all this was gone through in detail 5 years ago, what changed?????

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I used to be proud to be in the CCCA and own a few of the “elite” cars,

 

Not any more, the list is so watered down now who cares.

 

I quit attending CCCA Caravans due to cost, I’m not rich, but am income comfortable , and spending thousands and thousands for a few days of driving doesn’t make sense to me.  Being talked down to at the first Grand Classic we attended in the northeast, because we were only showing a “production” 1938 Packard super eight convertible coupe, didn’t endear me to the group either.

 

Let the 120’s in, I don’t really care any more.

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3 hours ago, Walt G said:

1935 Packard, your comments are realistic and make sense. Your kids will remember the invite to sit in the Packard forever. I did this as well within the past few months for the three early teens sons of a friend in the local Buick club. Invited them when they were here to sit in both my full classics a 1930 Packard touring car and a 1940 Buick conv sedan. Their Dad is a friend but his oldest car is a 1965 Buick. If there is a Caravan perhaps even a day or one overnight experience should be made available - sure extra planning , work etc but is it worth it? There are a lot of people who may view this and think "been there ( with kids) done that " and don't want to experience it again - well the kids are the future of the car collecting hobby be it a full classic or not. Encouragement and support will generate enthusiasm - perhaps if that thought is spread in CCCA they would see a slight increase in participation. Read what Matt has said when he attended national activities with his family ........................... very few kids due to the cost . If you seek "potential membership growth for the club" you have to make it appealing to all ages, if people participate as a family most of the "kids" already have great respect for the cars their parents appreciate , they see that every day and will act no different at an organized event.

THe "120" are great cars , but not full classics and as mentioned all this was gone through in detail 5 years ago, what changed?????

 

In my experience, the family-friendly way to do a tour is a hub-and-spoke model, based from a particular hotel or set of hotels, where some or all of the family can decide to hang out at the hotel on a particular day rather than go out driving, and you can always bring people along in a modern car.  But I realize that's not everyone's preference!

 

I haven't experienced the problem of really expensive hotels, although that may be because the CCCA national events I have attended were all Grand Nationals that were in driving distance, so I just drove my Packard up and back and I didn't stay at the hotel. 

 

Finally, although I haven't encountered snobby CCCA reactions to bringing kids, I did bring a 6-month old to Pebble Beach. We walked him all around in a stroller, and part of the time with one of those Baby Bjorn carriers.  And of course he took a huge p**p in the middle of the show, and there was no place to change him, so I found a spot over on the side and did the diaper change on the ground while all the grand people were drinking their champagne and enjoying caviar amidst the Duesenbergs and Bugattis.  We certainly got some looks!   But it was one heck of a show, we had a ball.

 

 

 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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I agree that hub tours are the most fun - saves you from packing up and moving on , and gives all who go along with you the option of participating in the days activities or going off to do something they find more appealing . Some one make car clubs do that - stay in one location and each day venture out to another location for a meal, museum visit, activity etc. The Franklin Club has done that for decades and it seems to work well and everyone is happy. I ran or co chaired the Franklin club meet in the early 1970s and the same formula is still used today . If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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58 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

In my experience, the family-friendly way to do a tour is a hub-and-spoke model, based from a particular hotel or set of hotels, where some or all of the family can decide to hang out at the hotel on a particular day rather than go out driving, and you can always bring people along in a modern car.  But I realize that's not everyone's preference!

 

I haven't experienced the problem of really expensive hotels, although that may be because the CCCA national events I have attended were all Grand Nationals that were in driving distance, so I just drove my Packard up and back and I didn't stay at the hotel. 

 

Finally, although I haven't encountered snobby CCCA reactions to bringing kids, I did bring a 6-month old to Pebble Beach. We walked him all around in a stroller, and part of the time with one of those Baby Bjorn carriers.  And of course he took a huge p**p in the middle of the show, and there was no place to change him, so I found a spot over on the side and did the diaper change on the ground while all the grand people were drinking their champagne and enjoying caviar amidst the Duesenbergs and Bugattis.  We certainly got some looks!   But it was one heck of a show, we had a ball.

 

 

See,  stupid me I thought that was a picnic basket with lunch!

 

I've heard the snobbery thing from a few people so I guess there must be something to it but have not encountered any of it myself.

 

As for the tours,  the one CCCA caravan I did was a dual hub and spoke.   5 days at the Mount Washington in NH and 4 days at the Point Overlook in Maine driving back to the Mount Washington on the last day.  That was a lot of fun.

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26 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

See,  stupid me I thought that was a picnic basket with lunch!

 

I've heard the snobbery thing from a few people so I guess there must be something to it but have not encountered any of it myself.

 

As for the tours,  the one CCCA caravan I did was a dual hub and spoke.   5 days at the Mount Washington in NH and 4 days at the Point Overlook in Maine driving back to the Mount Washington on the last day.  That was a lot of fun.

 

I never encountered it (the snobbery)when I was living in Louisiana, and most of the CCCA activities were in Texas, this was the late 1970's and 1980's, so ancient history I realize.  Always enjoyed the experience, well to do people but honest and hardworking.  Easy to talk to and they didn't care about money (as far as the events went), just that you loved the Classics.  

 

We moved up to Virginia in 1990 or so, first Grand Classic in Baltimore we were treated like second class citizens. We're not egocentric, so it doesn't take much to please us.  The welcome just wasn't there.  We did some Caravans, including the Rip Van Winkle, which in the 1990's stayed for three nights at the Mohonk Mountain House, very rustic place.  Also, expensive to say the least, our bill for three nights was over $1200.  Go back to the 1990's and think how much money that was.  Had one of the old timers in the CCCA make the comment that they wanted it expensive, kept the common folk out of participating.  Being a common folk, that sort of pissed me off.  I've always been semi comfortable in the money department, but not to the point that $400 a night didn't hurt, and that was room only, not meals (oh, they did give you some wood to burn in the very rustic room).  $400 a night would give me pause now, much less then....

 

I've become disenchanted with the CCCA, which is a shame, because at one time I thought it was THE club to be a member of and THE club to have a car that fit.  They aren't staying true to the original charter, they are struggling with membership, and they're trying to solve it by becoming more inclusive.  What a conundrum, when the very appeal of the club was that it WASN'T all inclusive...

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6 hours ago, trimacar said:

I've become disenchanted with the CCCA, which is a shame, because at one time I thought it was THE club to be a member of and THE club to have a car that fit.  They aren't staying true to the original charter, they are struggling with membership, and they're trying to solve it by becoming more inclusive.  What a conundrum, when the very appeal of the club was that it WASN'T all inclusive...

 

My sense is that they're doing ok relative to other antique car clubs. They seem to have a pretty loyal membership, and they're pretty well-funded.  But I guess that's all relative.

 

I also attended some Grand Classics near Baltimore, and although I had a great time at both, I didn't know many people the first time and it was definitely a little bit awkward.  Part of it was that the folks there mostly had known each other for many years, and as a new person it was a little hard to feel comfortable in the group.  It was a lot better the second time, when I had at least seen people before and was a familiar face to others.  But as I said above, so much of it is personality-dependent: A few friendly and welcoming faces can make all the difference.

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

My sense is that they're doing ok relative to other antique car clubs. They seem to have a pretty loyal membership, and they're pretty well-funded.  But I guess that's all relative.

 

I also attended some Grand Classics near Baltimore, and although I had a great time at both, I didn't know many people the first time and it was definitely a little bit awkward.  Part of it was that the folks there mostly had known each other for many years, and as a new person it was a little hard to feel comfortable in the group.  It was a lot better the second time, when I had at least seen people before and was a familiar face to others.  But as I said above, so much of it is personality-dependent: A few friendly and welcoming faces can make all the difference.

 

 

Agreed.  Typical new person in the group problem and not particular to the CCCA.   It is always hard in any social situation as a "regular" to remember to welcome in the new people.    It is very easy to sit around and chew the fat with your buddies and forget there might be some new members that need to feel comfortable.  

 

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SO if you want to generate that "welcome to the club, event, show " feeling why doesn't the officers and national board have a chairman to head a group to do that? That person could also contact the regions to give them a set of guidelines on how to "break the ice" to make the new members feel welcome. This may especially be true at a Grand Classic - sure everyone is all hyped up to see if their car will win an award to make it more important , BUT if the region running the Grand Classic had one or two people going around saying hi to EVERYONE and added in a "do you know so and so " and then make an introduction - perhaps the feeling of " a community of collectors" would be more apparent rather then an 'old boys club'  atmosphere. This in not meant to be a put down or criticism in any way, but just possibly needs to be considered in order for people to be encouraged to participate or want to attend an event again, and not feel like an outcast. We were all "new" to a car club or car club event at one time , even if it was 50 years ago - how did someone make you feel welcome and part of it besides and beyond the membership card in your wallet?

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19 hours ago, Walt G said:

I agree that hub tours are the most fun - saves you from packing up and moving on , and gives all who go along with you the option of participating in the days activities or going off to do something they find more appealing . Some one make car clubs do that - stay in one location and each day venture out to another location for a meal, museum visit, activity etc. The Franklin Club has done that for decades and it seems to work well and everyone is happy. I ran or co chaired the Franklin club meet in the early 1970s and the same formula is still used today . If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The Franklin Club meets were really fun - everyone of them !!!

 

Interestingly, very geared toward a budget too - and everyone was really happy as they spend time with their friends. 

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11 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

My sense is that they're doing ok relative to other antique car clubs. They seem to have a pretty loyal membership, and they're pretty well-funded.  But I guess that's all relative.

 

I also attended some Grand Classics near Baltimore, and although I had a great time at both, I didn't know many people the first time and it was definitely a little bit awkward.  Part of it was that the folks there mostly had known each other for many years, and as a new person it was a little hard to feel comfortable in the group.  It was a lot better the second time, when I had at least seen people before and was a familiar face to others.  But as I said above, so much of it is personality-dependent: A few friendly and welcoming faces can make all the difference.

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

Agreed.  Typical new person in the group problem and not particular to the CCCA.   It is always hard in any social situation as a "regular" to remember to welcome in the new people.    It is very easy to sit around and chew the fat with your buddies and forget there might be some new members that need to feel comfortable.  

 

Yes, tends to happen.  And probably happens more so at specialized events too (ex. Club yearly meets) - you see your friends so often that you want to spend time with them so the newbie sort of gets left behind.   When we attended ACD meets early on we usually brought a car, but only went for show day (not really giving the Club much of a chance) - that broke a lot of ice to have a car there, but then we never showed up regularly for the week until 2006 (so lost momentum basically) - timing is everything I guess.  There is a huge CCCA crossover to ACD Club so knew those people too - that helped.  Some of the best approaches though I have seen were people that found someone they felt they could relate to with a similar car and asked them if they could introduce them around.  One of the now ACD Club Directors walked up to me on the fluke and said they wanted to find an Auburn Boattail - my response was tough to find one so get a Phaeton and get into club, have fun, meet people, and ... - so I set him out to find a dealer who had just stopped by to see me 10 minutes earlier (they bought that Phaeton which has made them a great car and along the way now have an early and a late boattail, plus a Duesenberg).  

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9 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

The Franklin Club meets were really fun - everyone of them !!!

 

Interestingly, very geared toward a budget too - and everyone was really happy as they spend time with their friends. 

The Franklin Club annual meet encourages family participation - not in so many words , but you see people from all ages there. Hey, Bill Harrah brought his adopted sons to the annual Franklin meet at least twice !! I recall one liked to climb the small trees on the location and Bill thought that was funny as his son would call out hello to his Dad. Yes, they are geared towards a budget because they want people to attend.

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18 hours ago, Walt G said:

SO if you want to generate that "welcome to the club, event, show " feeling why doesn't the officers and national board have a chairman to head a group to do that? That person could also contact the regions to give them a set of guidelines on how to "break the ice" to make the new members feel welcome. This may especially be true at a Grand Classic - sure everyone is all hyped up to see if their car will win an award to make it more important , BUT if the region running the Grand Classic had one or two people going around saying hi to EVERYONE and added in a "do you know so and so " and then make an introduction - perhaps the feeling of " a community of collectors" would be more apparent rather then an 'old boys club'  atmosphere. This in not meant to be a put down or criticism in any way, but just possibly needs to be considered in order for people to be encouraged to participate or want to attend an event again, and not feel like an outcast. We were all "new" to a car club or car club event at one time , even if it was 50 years ago - how did someone make you feel welcome and part of it besides and beyond the membership card in your wallet?

 

Agreed all around.   And good advice for all antique car clubs, not just the CCCA. 

 

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The Pierce club makes all first time attendees name tags green. It’s everyone job at the meet to spend time with the new people. And not just three minutes.......the system works well. And it helps add new permanent members. Also, it’s policy for ALL seats to be filled in the cars when they leave for the tours each day. If you have a 100 point show car, then it becomes the owners choice to take passengers. I would say 95 percent of the cars have guests. And......first timers get into the open seats first, choosing which cars they want to ride in. My “welcome” to each one consists of helping them pick cars that run well and reliability ...........to improve their experience. Truth be told, it’s rare a Pierce breaks down at a national Pierce meet. Family is always welcome. PAS policy is room rates of 150 or less, unless pre approved by the board and the active touring membership. Affordable and fun. Due to budget limitations we go to mostly off the beaten path locations.......which is fine.........and all their meets are hub tours.

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The PAS meet sounds much like the Franklin Club - new , first time attendees have a red tag to make it easier for "old timers" to identify. If one make clubs can do this why can't multi make clubs do it as well. Perhaps in these times it is a good thing to rethink how to plan events that will accommodate and make all participants feel welcome.

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2 hours ago, edinmass said:

The Pierce club makes all first time attendees name tags green. It’s everyone job at the meet to spend time with the new people. And not just three minutes.......the system works well. And it helps add new permanent members. Also, it’s policy for ALL seats to be filled in the cars when they leave for the tours each day. If you have a 100 point show car, then it becomes the owners choice to take passengers. I would say 95 percent of the cars have guests. And......first timers get into the open seats first, choosing which cars they want to ride in. My “welcome” to each one consists of helping them pick cars that run well and reliability ...........to improve their experience. Truth be told, it’s rare a Pierce breaks down at a national Pierce meet. Family is always welcome. PAS policy is room rates of 150 or less, unless pre approved by the board and the active touring membership. Affordable and fun. Due to budget limitations we go to mostly off the beaten path locations.......which is fine.........and all their meets are hub tours.

 

Can I bring my Lincoln or Cadillac to a PAS tour? They seem like the best bunch of guys in the hobby.

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52 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Can I bring my Lincoln or Cadillac to a PAS tour? They seem like the best bunch of guys in the hobby.

 

Believe it or not.......yes. They regularly take Peerless cars.....from the "Three P's" and when you're a member and want to attend the Gilmore Museum Pierce Arrow Weekend.....which is this week, you can bring any old car. Courtesy says you park AWAY from all the Pierce cars in parking lots and lunch stops if its not a joint meet. But the club likes members, and the PAS has lots of younger members with cars, including two ladies in their 30's who work on and service their Pierce cars themselves. Obvisously if it's not a joint meet you leave your car in the parking lot at the museum, and not on the Pierce show field. Join and try them. Tell them you're a friend........you will hear all the stories about me.....🤫

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On 8/27/2020 at 8:12 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Received my E-mail survey from the CCCA this evening regarding the 120. Vote yes or no. Voted no, obviously.

 

 

THE CCCA NATIONAL BOARD NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU

 

Up for consideration is the Packard 120 Series to be granted Full Classic® Status.

 

We Really need your opinion!

 

P120_1937.jpg

 

 

 

Question to ALL members:

 

Should the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 (designated Packard Eight in 1938 and 1939) be granted Full Classic status by the Classic Car Club of America?

 

 

1935P_120.jpg

 

The subject of whether the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 automobiles should be granted Full Classic status has been shared with the membership through articles in the CCCA Bulletin. A number of written and emailed responses were received which were about evenly divided on the question. 

 

Arguments opposed to the inclusion of the 120 Packards include the fact that it takes the CCCA classification standards further into ‘down market’ upper middle price volume production territory.  

 

Arguments in favor include the fact that the entire luxury automotive market was moving away from individually constructed wood framed luxury cars into more mass produced well appointed upper middle class higher volume offerings such as the 62 Series Cadillacs, plus potential membership gain for the club.

 

Before moving forward to address this question further,  your Board of Directors, in concert with the Classification Committee would like to take advantage of a new outreach method offered by our new website of being able to, virtually cost free, to poll the membership on any subject.

 

Therefore, the following question is posed to our members:

 

Should the 1935 through 1942 Packard 120 (designated Packard Eight in 1938 and 1939) be granted Full Classic status by the Classic Car Club of America?

 

1941_P_120.jpgP120_1939.jpg

 

Please vote YES or NO by clicking the button below. A short comment space is provided.

 

We look forward to a significant response to this email to provide guidance to your club Officers and Directors. 

 

Thank you,

 

Chris Bock

Classification Chair

 

Steve Babinsky

President

                                                                                                                       

BELOW IS A BRIEF OVERVIEW THE PACKARD 120 SERIES

 

 

An Introduction to the Packard One Twenty

Introduced in January 1935 as part of the Twelfth Series, the Packard One Twenty represented a genuine Packard in every detail, including a smooth-running eight-cylinder engine, high-quality interior appointments, and superb build quality – only in a smaller form. It was available in a broad array of body styles, all powered by the 110 bhp L-head inline eight-cylinder engine, and offered at a price range between $980 and $1,095. It proved an immediate success with consumers.

The following year, the Fourteenth Series, the engine was enlarged to 282 cubic inches, allowing for an output of 120 bhp and an improved top speed of 85 mph, and a convertible sedan was added to the line. For 1937’s Fifteenth Series, hydraulic brakes were introduced and the One Twenty moved further upmarket with the introduction of the six-cylinder One Ten.

Packard briefly dropped the One Twenty nomenclature for 1938’s Sixteenth Series, referring to the model as simply the Eight; it replaced what had previously been the smallest senior line. The name returned for 1939’s Seventeenth Series, and the following season became hyphenated, with the longest-wheelbase variants dropped in favored of a pared-down roster of convertibles, coupes, and sedans on a 127-inch platform. This line continued through 1942’s abbreviated Twentieth Series; for that season, only the convertible coupe was offered on the 127-inch-wheelbase chassis, while other styles moved to a shorter 120-inch frame. In all, 234,845 examples of the One Twenty were produced prior to World War II.

 


Prewar Production (Standard Catalogue / Encyclopedia of American Cars / Kimes)

1935 24,995 / 24,995 / 24,995
1936 55,042 / 55,042 / 55,042
1937 50,100 / 50,100 / 50,100
1938 22,624 / 22,624 / 22,624
1939 17,647 / 17,647 / 17,647
1940 28,138 / 28,138 / 28,138
1941 17,100 / est. 17,000 / 17,100
1942 19,199 / 19,199 / 19,199
234,845

 

 

 

THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION

I received my email in the mail as well.....three times in fact.  The first one I explained my feelings about including the Packard 129 without including Buick Century, Cadillac 61, etc. and voted NO on the Packard 120.  Then I got another one, which I assumed was mistake, so I did all of the explaining again and voted NO on the Packard 120.  Several hours later I got the third one.  This time I figured they didn't want to hear my opinion as to how I was voting on the Packard 120 and so I just voted NO with no explanation.  I didn't hear from them again.  So, I guess they don't consider the differing opinions from the members.

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On 8/31/2020 at 5:55 AM, edinmass said:

The Pierce club makes all first time attendees name tags green. It’s everyone job at the meet to spend time with the new people. And not just three minutes.......the system works well. And it helps add new permanent members. Also, it’s policy for ALL seats to be filled in the cars when they leave for the tours each day. If you have a 100 point show car, then it becomes the owners choice to take passengers. I would say 95 percent of the cars have guests. And......first timers get into the open seats first, choosing which cars they want to ride in. My “welcome” to each one consists of helping them pick cars that run well and reliability ...........to improve their experience. Truth be told, it’s rare a Pierce breaks down at a national Pierce meet. Family is always welcome. PAS policy is room rates of 150 or less, unless pre approved by the board and the active touring membership. Affordable and fun. Due to budget limitations we go to mostly off the beaten path locations.......which is fine.........and all their meets are hub tours.

THAT'S THE WAY TO DO IT !!!

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On 8/31/2020 at 5:43 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Can I bring my Lincoln or Cadillac to a PAS tour? They seem like the best bunch of guys in the hobby.

Buy a Pierce, Matt!  We're glad to have you there, with or without a Pierce.  Save the dates:  June 8-12, 2021, Lancaster, PA, almost in your backyard.  June 20-24, 2022, Buellton, CA (almost in my backyard), where I'll have one or more cars if I'm still vertical, and you can ride with me or drive one of mine.

 

Some of my best friends in PAS are those I met either by me riding with them or them riding with me.  And this is the most cooperative and helpful antique car club I've ever been associated with in almost 60 years in the hobby.  A now deceased friend, then the chair of the sociology department at a major state (not CA) university, was my guest at a meet 20 years ago and was utterly amazed at the sight of people from all walks of life who offered knowledge, labor, tools, and spare parts for ailing cars owned by people they hadn't met before.

 

On 8/31/2020 at 6:41 AM, edinmass said:

Tell them you're a friend........you will hear all the stories about me.....🤫

Uh, people should be careful about that, Ed! 🙂 And there's not enough time at several meets for anyone to hear "ALL" the stories about you.....

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Years ago I received a call from a CCCA Director who got my name from another club member who suggested that I could put a tour together for them. I explained that I had never organized a tour of any sort but would be willing to take a crack at it. I also explained that my own Classic wasn't finished so I would need a ride for the tour. He replied great! And you can pick any car you want. And you can drive it!

 

Cool. I laid out the tour, contacted potential stops, arranged lunch, drove the route twice and confirmed all with my contact person. 

 

The day of the tour, no car was available, and it was made clear that none would be made available.  Period. After requesting rides, and being declined several times, two board members reluctantly agreed to let me ride in the back of their car.  Neither made even a minimal effort to include me in their conversation, except to verify directions. 

 

The final straw came as cars were parking at one of the tour stops. A passenger leaned out of a window as the car was entering the stop. "Who the **** planned this tour?" "I did," I responded.  "Are you retarded?" he asked.  I didn't even reply, I was so stunned.  "I asked you a question," he said. "Are you retarded? You must be for planning a tour like this."

 

Now, no I am not retarded (in fact I have a PhD) but I do have Asperger's, and I have a daughter who has Dyslexia,  Autism and ADHD.  One can imagine my internal reaction to this man. I do know it was only a few club members but between my treatment at the hands of the two board members and the "gentleman " in the parking lot,  my decision NOT to renew my membership was pretty easy. 

 

Following this event,  I wish I could say I wish the club well,  but I don't. 

 

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Ericmac, that region really lost out in the long run.  Your contributions here are among my favorite.  While every region is different how could you have anything but a real bad taste in your mouth.  Just goes to show how obnoxious behavior has lasting impact.  

 

Every CCCA member I know could not be further from your experience.  But it just takes a couple "strong personalities" to drive the dynamic of any group.  Harder to ignore when your the new kid on the block..

 

FWIW as an ex CCCA member and 120 owner I would vote no also, just like not letting a vette into a British sports car club.  🙂

 

 

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2 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Ericmac, that region really lost out in the long run.  Your contributions here are among my favorite.  While every region is different how could you have anything but a real bad taste in your mouth.  Just goes to show how obnoxious behavior has lasting impact.  

 

Every CCCA member I know could not be further from your experience.  But it just takes a couple "strong personalities" to drive the dynamic of any group.  Harder to ignore when your the new kid on the block..

 

FWIW as an ex CCCA member and 120 owner I would vote no also, just like not letting a vette into a British sports car club.  🙂

 

 

I appreciate your comments a great deal Steve. More than you know.

 

Back to the original thread (I know I helped us digress) I am one who also likes the Packard 120 a great deal.  It is a car I would be proud to own. That said,  I do not think it is a Classic unless it is clothed in custom coachwork by Darrin, Graber, etc.) thus I also would vote no.

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Eric, yes of course the Darrins and custom bodies are different.  Some Packard folk will say the 282 in the 120 was a more modern engine than the super 8, I am not sure.  Then again a lot of sr. Owners speak highly of the 6 cylinder cars, not as Classics but lots of car for a 6.

 

Keep up those great posts!

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20 hours ago, Grimy said:

Buy a Pierce, Matt!  We're glad to have you there, with or without a Pierce.  Save the dates:  June 8-12, 2021, Lancaster, PA, almost in your backyard.  June 20-24, 2022, Buellton, CA (almost in my backyard), where I'll have one or more cars if I'm still vertical, and you can ride with me or drive one of mine.

 

Some of my best friends in PAS are those I met either by me riding with them or them riding with me.  And this is the most cooperative and helpful antique car club I've ever been associated with in almost 60 years in the hobby.  A now deceased friend, then the chair of the sociology department at a major state (not CA) university, was my guest at a meet 20 years ago and was utterly amazed at the sight of people from all walks of life who offered knowledge, labor, tools, and spare parts for ailing cars owned by people they hadn't met before.

 

Uh, people should be careful about that, Ed! 🙂 And there's not enough time at several meets for anyone to hear "ALL" the stories about you.....

 

 

The Pierce Arrow Society......."PAS" is about people first.........its fair to say they consider the annual meet....which I think I have been to 33 or more.....is actually a family reunion with cars. Like most family's there is an occocional spat.....but it never lasts long and things get back to normal very quickly. It's a club where guys swap cars on the tour just to drive something different, and no one gets up tight about it. Like a car at the meet? Ask the owner for a ride......you will be driving it ten minutes later. Ten years ago, a grandson of a member walked up to me and said I had the best car at the show......and there were more than thirty Pierce cars on the grass. We were at the Gilmore Museum, and they have a 3/4 mile road/track to drive cars on. I gave the 14 year old his first driving lesson then and there, with his grandparents in the rumble seat, while he drove my 32 coupe around the track........in less than three minutes the was shifting gears and I had to tell him to back off the throttle...........and yes, today he is a member and still attends meets when he can. That is what Pierce Arrow can shows are all about. 

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I realize that this thread has gone from talking 120 Packards to extolling the virtues of the PAS....

 

I've driven a perfectly restored 120 coupe/roadster, as Packard called them, and it's a GREAT driving car.  Lots of power in a lighter platform, easy steering (and I can tell you, not much can get easier than my '38 Super Eight with the center point steering, but the 120 is lighter)...just a lot of fun to drive.

 

Is it the quality of a Full Classic, or what the CCCA originally was chartered to honor...of course not.  But, neither are a lot of Auburns, yet there they are on the list, an A dragged on by association with big brothers C and D.

 

I voted to let them in.  Let the club hoist by it's own petard.  Silly club, to even consider it....

 

Oh, and yes, the PAS is a GREAT club....there's room in my phaeton, Matt, if you come to the meet next year in the Hershey area and want a ride!  As to driving, hmmm, maybe, I've owned car since 1985 and only three other people have driven it...but not out of the question!

IMG_2793.jpg

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3 hours ago, trimacar said:

I realize that this thread has gone from talking 120 Packards to extolling the virtues of the PAS....

 

I've driven a perfectly restored 120 coupe/roadster, as Packard called them, and it's a GREAT driving car.  Lots of power in a lighter platform, easy steering (and I can tell you, not much can get easier than my '38 Super Eight with the center point steering, but the 120 is lighter)...just a lot of fun to drive.

 

Is it the quality of a Full Classic, or what the CCCA originally was chartered to honor...of course not.  But, neither are a lot of Auburns, yet there they are on the list, an A dragged on by association with big brothers C and D.

 

I voted to let them in.  Let the club hoist by it's own petard.  Silly club, to even consider it....

 

Oh, and yes, the PAS is a GREAT club....there's room in my phaeton, Matt, if you come to the meet next year in the Hershey area and want a ride!  As to driving, hmmm, maybe, I've owned car since 1985 and only three other people have driven it...but not out of the question!

IMG_2793.jpg

David, you're a good guy, and my first-ever car show was in Winchester, but I've got to tell you that a '41 Buick Century could run rings around any one of those 120's.  In 1940 NASCAR had to rule the Buick 320 off the track because they beat anything in sight, and that's a fact.  In fact when I was a little boy I was with my dad on Rt 236 Annandale to Arlington when he drove a worn '39 Special and ran of and left a '39 Packard 120 during an impromptu race.  My mother was real upset with him, but I was wowed.

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2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I would express my opinion formally to CCCA via opinion on 120's, but whatever was mailed (or maybe emailed) has not come yet (and that also goes for my parent's and two other local member friends I have asked).

 

John, I think it was just e-mailed.

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On 8/5/2020 at 5:04 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

Matt has succinctly pinpointed the CCCA membership problem, accessibility for those of less-than millionaire status willing to accommodate the exclusive country club game that's on offer.  Broadening the approved list of car is going to do nothing to rectify that situation.

Look what happened to Cadillac and Lincoln when they broadened their cars to be more mainstream by cheapening the quality of materials in the 1970's and '80's, and losing their exclusivity as a result.   Mercedes Benz and Rolls-Royce always maintained theirs, and still remain a benchmark when it comes to the luxury class.   

 

Craig

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2 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Look what happened to Cadillac and Lincoln when they broadened their cars to be more mainstream by cheapening the quality of materials in the 1970's and '80's, and losing their exclusivity as a result.   Mercedes Benz and Rolls-Royce always maintained theirs, and still remain a benchmark when it comes to the luxury class.   

 

Craig

Comparing apples and oranges.  Voluntary membership in a car club has very different criteria than those applied to purchase of a new luxury car.  Exclusivity is only one consideration.

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2 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Comparing apples and oranges.  Voluntary membership in a car club has very different criteria than those applied to purchase of a new luxury car.  Exclusivity is only one consideration.

The Apples:  Club criteria maintains exclusivity, by only allowing vehicles were expensive enough for a privileged few to own when new.   

The Oranges mixed in:  The club does NOT limit membership only to those who currently own a certified CCCA vehicle.  As far as I know, the only requirement is one having interest in them and ownership is not required.

 

Craig

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