AACA & Hot Rods

[aqh]

If Hot Rods are in I'm out. Hot rods have their place in the auto world. Not in the AACA. I joined because of my belief in AACA and its determination to preserve authentic stock automobiles. I will leave AACA for the addition of non stock automobiles.

[color:\\"red\\"]

[1937hd45]

Sorry you feal that way. I've been an AACA Member since 1970 and am happy to see the addition of Class 37.

[Guest]

AACA is SICK. They are violating there own mission by condoning the destruction of antique vehicles to build hot rods of any sort!

[imported_Bob Hill]

This class is NOT about taking antique cars and converting them to hot rods. This class is about restoring/showing those hot rods from the past just like we do with every other class. It is not about taking a 34 Ford and makin git a Hot Rod and then showing it in class 37.

Folks are getting all bent out of shape because of this class mainly because they aren't reading the details of it. I was upset initially as well but when I took the time to research the class my thoughts changed - and yes, I am totally against converting an antique car into a hot rod or street rod. I do not anticipate this class taking over the AACA Meets like the street rods have at many local shows because most of the street rods/hot rods at these shows were done within the past 5-10 years. Class 37 is for those rods done 25 years ago on a '49 or older model vehicle.

I hate to see any one quit AACA but sadly those who quit are the ones who will lose in reality.

BOB

[Guest BruceW]

I'm not saying yea or nay at this point on the new hot rod class.

In all fairness to both sides of the issue, I looked at the aim of the AACA stated on this website..(contained below)

"The aim of the AACA is the perpetuation of the pioneer days of automobiling by furthering the interest in and preserving of antique automobiles, and the promotion of sportsmanship and of good fellowship among all AACA members. The AACA uses the term "automobile" in a comprehensive sense to include all self-propelled vehicles intended for passenger use (cars, race vehicles, trucks, fire vehicles, motorcycles, powered bicycles, etc.). Similarly, the term includes various power sources, such as gasoline, diesel, steam and electric."

Actually, there is nothing in the aim that states "authentic" or "as from the factory".

And since there is the argument by some that hot rodding is part of automotive history (well it actually occured so I guess it IS a part of the automotive history....like it or not), it appears to me that the AACA would not be violating its mission with the addition of a certain type of antique automobile.

NOW......

This does not answer WHETHER OR NOT the AACA should add another class to include hot rods as this is a personal opinion of each member.

As I mentioned above I am not supporting one side or the other at this time. Whether or not I like or dislike modified automobiles makes no difference here. I am just pointing out something I saw in my research on the matter.

I don't think I would leave the AACA organiization because of the addition of one class that I did not like. That would be kinda like leaving the US because it wanted to add a 51st state. There are plenty of other "states" in the AACA to enjoy without going to the Class 37 state if you wish not to.

Just a thought...

[Guest Dave Mills]

Personally, I applaud AACA for adding the class. For those that don't approve...don't look. There are plenty of other classes to enjoy if someone doesn't like that one. Early hot rods are a part of automotive history. Matter of fact, I am sure you could point to certain advances that occurred due to the creation of the hot rod. I was actually going to cut up my 1928 Plymouth and make a hot rod out of it until some AACA members convinced me not to.

[JB-ed]

To "Air Cooled" and others, let's get the class 37 definition up front right away to clear out all the misunderstanding. Here it is as sent to me. I presented this elsewhere and no one contradicted it, so this must be it:

"AACA Board Approves Establishment of New Class for Display of Authentic Hot Rods

"The Antique Automobile Club of America has approved the introduction of a new automobile class into their judging system for the certification and display of authentic, period hot rods. Known as Historical Hot Rods, Class 37 will receive pre-1949 hot rods. A certification process will be developed to evaluate these vehicles. Documentation and authentication will be required for the certification.

"After two years of evaluation, and an evaluation test at the 2001 popular Eastern Fall Meet in Hershey, PA, the Judging Committee recommended to the Board that the new Class be adopted. Historical Hot Rods will be defined as a vehicle with pre-1949 body and a reconstruction date of 25 years or older. The year of construction has to contain a majority of parts that were available during that year. A Historical Hot Rod Committee will be formed to review the application for the class similar to the club's Race Car Class 24A in order to authenticate the historical hot rod. Documentation will be required to establish that the vehicle was originally modified at least 25 years prior to the date of application to participate in Class. The vehicle must appear as it did during the time period.

"Class 37, will be for "Display Only", in order to receive input from the membership.

"For more information, please contact Mr. Russell Fisher, AACA Vice President of Class Judging."

Please note the sliding 25 year scale. A surviving relic of American automotive history can be chopped up for hot rod in 2003 and shown in 2027. What's wrong with this? It is removing one piece of history today and replacing it with something else tomorrow. This is not historic preservation.

To the person previously who questioned "authenticity" please advise what you think all the judges are looking for in the "antique" classifications on the judging field.

If this class was intended to acknowledge only those hot rods created in the 1940s and 1950s, which most of you wrongly thought, it falls short in a big way, as you now see by reading the actual definition.

In the 40s and 50s, the cars that were being sacrificed for hot rods were only 20 and 30 years old and barely antiques themselves. When cars of the same vintage are sacrifced today by baby boomers who want to recreate their youth, we have a whole different problem in that the sacrificed cars in themselves are valid antiques. This is the whole problem with the current hot rod craze, and now AACA is sanctioning it.

[Guest BruceW]

JB-ed

I never questioned authenticity as a criteria in judging.

In fact I do not remember mentioning judging at all.

I know well that authenticity is important in judging. But judging of cars is only one activity within the AACA. To my knowledge, the judging of automobiles is the only aspect of the AACA that specifically requires in writing the criteria of authenticity.

(The issue of judging is mute anyway since the class definition defines Class 37 as a "Display Only" class).

I was not promoting Class 37 nor cursing it. I just made a truthful observation that the AACA aim statement contained on this web site does not include any reference to "authenticity" or originality.

Actually I prefer to own and drive authentic, original automobiles...but that is my own preference.

[ex98thdrill]

Are we at this again? WHY?? We all spoke our piece about it, a decision was made, let it go. With all of the classes at our meets, if you don't like the class, look at the cars in another class. Just remember that if it wasn't for some of these people "rodding" their cars out, a lot of us wouldn't have the parts that got our originals back together.

[1937hd45]

FORGET the 25 year old "Instant Antique" statement when talking about class 37! There will be a cutoff year, somewhere in the early to mid 1960's. If the car was a rod in 1960 whatever it can apply for AACA Cerfification in class 37. HOT RODS are what AACA will have in class 37, NOT Street Rods! How many of you people boycot restaurants that serve one dish that you never plan on ordering? There is a lot more to AACA that one class you have no interest in viewing.

[aqh]

To Air-Cooled,

If it is not about taking antique cars and converting them to hot rods, what is it about. You say it is about restoring/showing hot rods from the past. Some one had to destroy an antique automobile in order to produce a hot rod whether it happened in 1940, 1950 or this year.

If I put a small block V8 in my 1917 Olds to create a hot rod, there would be one less of an already small number of original old Oldsmobiles. Perish the thought.

If authenticity is not an issue, why are paint chips for a particular year so important. Maybe my 1930 Olds should be painted in pearl with contrasting black fenders. Why must original spark plugs be in the car when it is judged so that no points are taken? It is all about restoring/showing the car in its authentic state as the manufacturer would have produced.

Perhaps a simple standard could be adopted by AACA. If it has wheels we will allow it on or show field.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> There will be a cutoff year, somewhere in the early to mid 1960's. If the car was a rod in 1960 whatever it can apply for AACA Cerfification in class 37. HOT RODS are what AACA will have in class 37, NOT Street Rods! </div></div>

Is this written anywhere outside of this forum? I ask because it is so obviously incompatible with the statement from the class definition:

[color:\\"purple\\"]"Historical Hot Rods will be defined as a vehicle with pre-1949 body and a reconstruction date of 25 years or older."

This seems to be a major re-definition of the class. Or am I doing my math wrong?

[1937hd45]

Dave, What had been stated here made no since to me, so I asked someone close to this topic for some clairity. There will be a clear diffination of class 37 in an upcoming issue of Antique Automobile. There will be a year cut off, Hot Rods built before some early to mid 1960's date. If the car existed as a HOT ROD before this date it will be allowed to apply for certification in class 37. A car modified after the cut off date will not be a future AACA applicant.All this paranoia about all the unrestored cars turning into street rods is way over blown.

[Guest]

Yes it probably will be defined for now...but it is still moving the club down a slippery slope. AACA rules have been changed many times over the years and this one could be just as easily changed. JB's arguments may not have merit right now but I bet in the future this will be revisited and the eligibility could be opened up.

For me this class will blur the distinction between the hot rod clubs and AACA. And yes I understand all of the arguments on both sides but I don't necessarily agree with them. This is just an example of why I have become frustrated with AACA over the last twenty years. They have tried to be all things to all people in the "antique" car hobby and have done an increasingly poor job of it.

ASW

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I HAVE A SOLUTION!

Make the modification date no more than 24 years after the date of manufacture. That way, no antiques will be destroyed.

Seriously aqh, as it stands, these cars were not necessarily antiques when they were rodded. Admittedly, if the modification date slides and they keep the 1949 rule, when 1974 is the modification cut off, then 1949 model cars would have been antiques when they were modified. As it stands, many of the cars elligible were only "used cars" at the time.

Imagine someone rodding a '93 Camaro today. Nobody is going to give a crap. But give it 50 years, assuming the car still exists, and someone is going to say "What a shame, someone destroyed that beautiful antique Chevrolet"

I'm sure life will go on for me either way. I'm not a proponent of the new class, but if it's going to exist, I'm going to go look at what type of hot rods they had back then, and enjoy.

[Guest]

Hot rods in class 37!!!!!!!!

How are you going to tell if someone just finished restoring a rod with all parts from that era or if the job was done 25 years ago? This is just going to open up a can of worms by basicly calling the owner a lier. How is someone going to provide proof for a car that was rodded 40 years ago when the guy who did the job is probably dead. Anyone can give you a piece of paper that says this is when the car was modified. Not to many people cared about taking pictures of their cars back then, like today. The AACA wants vehicles to stay original and that is what the club should back original unmodified cars only. How many people do you think are going to travel any great distance just to display their car? Then they get there and aren't allowed to display it because some judge or panel say that they don't think it was done 25 years ago or more. Stop the nonsense and lets keep the club for original cars unmodified ONLY!!!

Dave Senior member

[Guest]

______________________________________________________________________________

This is just an example of why I have become frustrated with AACA over the last twenty years. They have tried to be all things to all people in the "antique" car hobby and have done an increasingly poor job of it.

ASW

___________________________________________________________________________

ASW, you said a mouthful. When an organization tries to please everyone, they usually end up pleasing no one. You cannot be all things to all people and be successful at any of it.

But then that is just our opinion, right.

hvs

[ted sweet]

yup, bring on the trailor queens.

[1937hd45]

The "Certification" process is NOT DONE on the show field!!!!!!! You request the forms from the Vice President of Class Judging, and sent them into the certification commettee. The system has worked well for over 15 years in the Race Vehicle class. Your proof has to be rock solid to get the vehicle approved. FORGET the 25 year deal, there will be a early to mid 1960's year cut off date for Hot Rods.

[Guest]

teddy ~ The point of your post escapes me, and since it is directed at my post I believe I have the right to ask what are you talking about.

What in my post has any connection to trailers or the vehicles transported within them?

hvs

[Dave@Moon]

Bob,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> FORGET the 25 year deal, there will be a early to mid 1960's year cut off date for Hot Rods. </div></div>

and on the Judging Forum, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The cut off date for a HOT ROD in class 37 will be early to mid 1960's. The historical Hot Rod era died at that time, there is no interest in having STREET RODS in AACA Nation Meets. Cars in class 37 will have to be "Certified" just as every vehicle in class 24.

</div></div>

If this is the case, and I have every reason to expect that it is, this is a <span style="font-weight: bold">HUGE</span> improvement in the current published definition of Class 37. It addresses , albeit in an indirect manner, some of the concerns that have been expressed regarding the certification of cars that were hot-rodded long after they were antiques. It would eliminate most of what we today think of as the most grievious sins of the hot rodding community, which I think is jb-ed's major concern as well as many others.

However,....

I must strongly disagree that your assertion that "...there is no interest in having STREET RODS in AACA Nation Meets." There most certainly <span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> </span> interest in just such a thing happening, it comes mainly from <span style="font-style: italic">outside</span> the AACA. More importantly, in the distant future, 20-30 years down the line, it is not hard to foresee a point when today's "street rods" are every bit the collectible piece of automotive history that Class 24 and Class 37 cars are.

No doubt, when that time comes the AACA will have some hard decisions to make. And it is at that point that the "new" Class 37 definition of a firm cut-off date troubles me.

When a <span style="font-style: italic">date</span> of historical significance is specified in writing, it is very easy (years down the line) to simply pencil in a <span style="font-style: italic">new date</span> more reflective of , shall we say, current popular thinking. I believe that if there is simply a date of (for example) 1965 set as the cut off date for certifiable hot rods, the pressure both from without and within the Assn to move that date up will grow inexorably each year until...., well, basically every argument put forth on the subject pro and con becomes moot.

I think the idea Hal has put forth here, and that I've reccommended on several of these related threads, of a floating period of certification for vehicles based on 20 or 25 years after their manufacture is a much more stable and workable standard to apply. More importantly, it will be a <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> hard standard to overturn in the distant future when the time comes for some newly influential board member to propose that hot rodded Fairmonts and CRX's need to be admitted. Without a doubt, if the precedent of using a simple cut off date is set, that date will be moved eventually and jb-ed's former AACA Senior car turned street rod <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> be certified at some point in time.

In the main I think Class 37 is a very good idea. But it is apparent that serious pitfalls regarding it's defintion and subsequent implementation are not being addressed.

[Guest]

I placed this article on a new thread, but I'm posting it here in case someone does not read the other.

Thanks

"There will be NO Street Rods in the AACA"

For those of you who only read the title or first line of an article, you should be feeling much better now. For the rest of you who are already informed about the new A.A.C.A. Class 37 "Historic Hot Rods", read on.

Amidst much discussion and controversy, I am writing this article to try and answer many of your questions and calm some of your fears.

It was February 1999 when this story begins. At the annual A.A.C.A. meeting in Philadelphia, a topic of discussion was the interest in early Hot Rods and the part they played in automotive history and development. As a result of the interest generated, the president of the A.A.C.A. asked that a committee be formed to create a definition of a "Historic Hot Rod" and develop guidelines for such a class within the structure of the A.A.C.A. We formed a committee as requested and started the task of defining the class.

Two years passed, and after revisiting the issue, our committee was asked to provide a display of what type of cars would be eligible for this proposed new class. A small display of two "Hot Rods" appeared at the Hershey Fall meet in 2001. Now we are in 2002 and the class has been established. So what is a "Hot Rod". Well let's start with what it is not. It is NOT a street rod. A street rod is a car that has been modified with modern components such as air conditioning, power steering, power brakes, tilt steering, velour upholstery, CD players, radial tires and many other modern aspects found on production cars. Their focus is comfort and driveability while utilizing an original or aftermarket body of a pre 1948 automobile or truck. This is NOT what Class 37 is about. Now with that said, what kind of car is a hot rod? I will refer to the original definition used for establishing this class:

The A.A.C.A. Historic Hot Rod Class is open to vintage Hot Rods that were reconstructed from an automobile originally manufactured prior to 1949. In order to qualify for this category a vehicle must retain a preponderance of the major components such as: body, chassis, front and rear suspension, motor and other key parts that made the hot rod distinct during its reconstruction. Documentation will be required to establish that the vehicle was originally modified at least 25 years prior to the date of application to compete in this category. The vehicle must appear as it did during the period of time for which you are documenting and requesting A.A.C.A. certification. Certification forms will be the same as class 24A with some slight modifications.

The Certification Committee will be responsible for determining if a vehicle qualifies for this class. Documentation for this class will consists of magazine features, television or motion picture exposure, show programs, owners contribution to automotive design or history, cultural impact of vehicle. The area of acceptable documentation will be at the discretion of the certification committee. The certification committee will make a recommendation to the Vice President of class judging as to its authenticity. The final decision remains with the A.A.C.A.

So what does all that really mean, as an example, it means that if you have a car or truck originally built in 1948 and is was modified into a hot rod in 1955, you must have the majority of the parts of the car when it was a hot rod and they cannot be newer than 1955. It also means that you have had the car certified by the A.A.C.A. certification committee and your documentation meets the requirements necessary to be allowed in the new class. The final decision is up to the certification committee and the A.A.C.A.

The purpose of the A.A.C.A. is to preserve automotive history and tell the whole story of automotive development. You cannot do this without recognizing the contribution that early hot rodding played in automotive history. Many of today's automotive icons were hot rodders and racers. Names like Henry Ford, Louis Chevrolet, the Duesenburg Brothers, Enzo Ferrari and list goes on and on.

Hot Rods have impacted our culture as strongly as anything that ever rolled on four wheels. From coast to coast, names like Doane Spencer, Tony LaMassa, Dick Scritchfield, Neal East and Ed "Big Daddy" Roth displayed their creativity along with Norm Wallace, Tommy Foster, Artie Johnson and Fran Banister. This area of automotive history is part of the picture and deserves to be invited to the party.

As a member of the A.A.C.A. and a Hot Rod enthusists I agree with the cry "There will be No street rods in the A.A.C.A."

[Guest]

A short while ago I placed this post on the Judging section. Like Jerry Duncan's message, I believe this belongs here as well.

______________________________________________________________________________

I am really glad that Jerry Duncun decided to come on here and give us his take on what he, by his own admission, was instrumental in creating. I still hold the position that he had no obligation to do it, but by coming on here he has opened the door for further thoughtful discussion.

In Jerry's document, "There will be NO street rods in the AACA" it is clearly stated that class 37 vehicles must be pre 1949. OK. But it also states, "the vehicle was originally modified at least 25 years prior to the application to compete in this category.

Point #1 The word COMPETE! We have heard a lot of stuff [referred to by some as crap] about this being only an exhibition class. You do not COMPETE in an exhibition. You EXHIBIT.

Point #2 This document backs up the contention that I can take a 1948 Ford, make it into a Hot Rod today, document it thoroughly and then in 25 years apply for acceptance into class 37 [which by then will probably be Class 37 a-b-c-d-e-f-g-h-i-j ad infinitum.]. But in a shorter time frame, a 1987 rodding of a pre '48 vehicle will only have to wait until 2012 to apply [10 years]. Where am I wrong in these assumptions?

So, 1937HD45 and other apologists for class 37, where did you get your dates and rules which you have so liberally dispensed here on the forum?

I got mine right from the man who was behind the creation of Class 37. I accept what he is telling us.

hvs

[Guest]

The "KEY" part of Class 37 that will make your example not able to happen is the Certification and Documentation process. For purpose of this discussion, the Golden Age of hot rodding was just before WWII and the post war years up to the early 60's to some degree. By then the Hot Rod community, for lack of a better term, was splintered into more specific uses of the cars i.e. drag racing, road racing, show cars, street cars (Later to become Street Rods) and a small group who wanted to preserve the "Good Old Days" and keep their hot rods as they were. It kinda sounds a little like the AACA mission statement? But I digress, the cars we (the certification committee) will allow in this class for exhibit or judging will be "put through the ringer" to assure that they represent the intent and spirit of the Class and it's objective, which is "to preserve the past" I must ad that even though you (Howard) and I may not see this issue the same way, you have conducted yourself with the utmost dignity and treated me with respect and kindness. It would be nice to think we all could "agree to disagree" as gentlemen following your example.

Sincerely

Jerry Duncan

[Peter Gariepy]

Please see the following thread:

http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/showflat....rt=1#Post141661