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PWB

Best Rebuild Kit

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So it looks like I'm going to end up rebuilding my motor.

 

Does anyone recommend a best rebuild kit or piece-meal of sources?  ('67)

 

$ no issue. She gets the best.

 

Thanks!

 

Paul

 

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

I would bet that there's a shop in your area that rebuilds electric motors. Look for the shop that rebuilds alternators/generators and starter motors.  

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Paul,

 

    You didn't state what MOTOR. Ed assumes you are talking about electric motors, which you may be talking about

I don't know because it hasn't been stated.

 

Tom T.

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40 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I would bet that there's a shop in your area that rebuilds electric motors. Look for the shop that rebuilds alternators/generators and starter motors.  

Oh so sorry

 

The engine.

 

Thank you

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Paul,

 

    ANYTHING you get in a supply it all kit usually has some China inferior stuff in it.  It is almost ALWAYS BEST to piece meal it part by part.  This way you have control over the quality of the parts you may be purchasing.

    Go to V8BUICK.com & do a search on engine rebuilding.  The owner of this site is Jim Weiss from TSP (Tri Shield Performance) as far as I'm concerned the best for the 400/430/455 engine builds. His knowledge FAR surpasses just about ANYONE else's tha t I know of.  You will want to take advantage of his knowledge.  Better would be to just send him YOUR engine & have him go through it.  In the short term it will seem kinda costly, which it will be, BUT in the long run it will actually turn out less costly because IF you allow a dynp session the engine will be broken in on the dyno under a load & when you get it back all you have to do is install it & go with NO PROBLEMS that ALWAYS seem to pop up.  The dyno session virtually eliminates this to a large extent.

   One thing I can recommend is about the harmonic balancer. Don't get a new stock one or a re-build of your old one. Invest in an SFI approved balancer either BFJ or Romac (Romac is the one I keep in stock).

 

Tom T.

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Posted (edited)

In my vernacular, motors are electric; engines run on fuel.  😎

 

What Tom T. suggests is right on.  I've stated this before and in the case of an engine rebuild, it's totally on target. 

CHEAP LABOR ISN'T GOOD AND GOOD LABOR ISN'T CHEAP.   

The quality of your rebuild will be remembered long after the cost is long forgotten.  

 

Your only jobs in an engine rebuild should be getting the engine to and from the rebuilder's, be a Go-fer should one be needed, and write the check.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, RivNut said:

In my vernacular, motors are electric; engines run on fuel.  😎

 

What Tom T. suggests is right on.  I've stated this before and in the case of an engine rebuild, it's totally on target. 

CHEAP LABOR ISN'T GOOD AND GOOD LABOR ISN'T CHEAP.   

The quality of your rebuild will be remembered long after the cost is long forgotten.  

 

Your only jobs in an engine rebuild should be getting the engine to and from the rebuilder's, be a Go-fer should one be needed, and write the check.

Ed, In my neighborhood a gasoline combustion engine was not a motor. A motor is powered by electricity. I looked up the words in a dictionary. The person that gave the definition for both words said they are interchangeable. I’m not correcting the person who wrote the definition. I’m not correcting anyone, just reporting what I read.

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I think that's what I said, isn't it?  I also said "In my vernacular...." meaning that when I read PBWs thread I would not have been confused and written out that long diatribe if he'd had used 'engine.'  😊  In my neighborhood, engines also run on diesel and my friend Rex's dragsters' engines runs on nitro-methane.  I've always thought it funny, when I happened to watch, that Mike on Wheeler Dealers referred to the entire car as a 'motor.'  

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   It has ALWAYS irked me when someone said "Motor" instead of "Engine" when someone is talking about the ENGINE in their automobile/truck or whatever & calls it a motor.

   Never said anything because it the world we live in today does it really matter???

That's one reason I ask for clarification.

 

Tom T.

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Well Tom, the next time some guy brings his Tesla into have his motor looked, I guess he'll be correct. 😎

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

what's wrong with your engine?

 

I dont know yet.

 

She started running intermittently rough a year ago and I just dismissed it as cheap gas and / or water in the tank.

 

All of the sudden she sputters and backfires on attempts at starts.

 

I checked everything outside the engine at least 3 times. I got good spark. Changed and rebuilt the new carb twice. Changed the coil and points just to be sure.

Triple checked all the wires for chaffing or breaks. The vacuum advance works fine. Cant find any vacuum hose breaks.

Replaced the fuel hoses. Got fuel jetting nice on both sides.

Plugs are like new. 

The distributor cap was at #1 terminal with balance at 0'. (I never messed with turning the distributor since I owned the car)

I drained the fuel tank and borescoped - not a speck of dirt.

I drained the oil pan and borescoped - no plastic teeth or chunks of metal.

 

Next I need to do a compression / leak down test.

 

---- when my aching back heals!

 

 

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks all

 

Keep on MOTORING  🧐

 

 

 

 

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Edited by PWB (see edit history)

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99 per cent probability that the timing chain has jumped........no need to rebuild the engine!

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52 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

99 per cent probability that the timing chain has jumped........no need to rebuild the engine!

Best way to check that is to get #1 to TDC compression stroke and relate to 0’ correct?


(before tear down) 

 

 Thanks 

 

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If absolutely no one understands you, you probably used the wrong term. If everyone, including Scooby Doo, corrects you, you were understood. And that was the important part wasn't it?

 

To the question. I would be leery of a "kit". Just a feeling that more attention would be paid to marketing all you need than quality. Source your parts close to the manufacturer's items, contract the machining, and follow the shop manual to the letter. "Some professional" will throw your engine together at the last minute after a long wait, and brag about his reputation for warranty work. Spend your money on tools. No good fairy came along and went "Poof, you're an engine builder". And if a guy tells you he has X years or experience it usually means he is X years older than he was the first time. I was taught that by professionals.

Bernie

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14 hours ago, PWB said:

Best way to check that is to get #1 to TDC compression stroke and relate to 0’ correct?


(before tear down) 

 

 Thanks 

 

Paul, if the car was running before you shut it off and it won't start and has fuel and spark, the timing chain has jumped.....I've seen this about twenty times over the years and it's happened personally to me 4 times.Timing chains always jump when you shut off the engine because the engine stops and the loose chain does not. When I bought my 65 Riviera with 52,000 miles on the car, the first thing I did to the car was the timing chain and it was extremely loose and 

getting ready to jump, even though the plastic teeth on the top gear were still good. I've seen a lot of timing chains jump with 60 or 70 thousand miles on them on 60's GM cars.

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Paul,

 

    You really need to do the most basic diagnosis BEFORE delving into something knda' blind.  Recommendations are great, BUT answers without being there although can be very helpful sometimes miss the mark.  Know what I mean???     

    1st. would be to put a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt & rock the crank back & forth to help to try to determine IF in actuality there IS a timing chain/gear problem.  IF the crank moves more than 10-15* before you feel any resistance it's almost certain the chain/gears are at fault.  To further this diagnosis try advancing the distributor, the vacuum advance canister, by loosening the 9/16ths. bolt & turning the distributor approx. 1/2"-3/4" to the advanced position, then tighten the bolt, canister towards the radiator or counterclockwise & trying to start it.   IF it really tries to start & maybe even run for a short period of time you've more than likely have found the culprit.   Most times because of building tolerances built into the engine at the assembly plant & is still an original engine there is little chance you will encounter valve to piston clearance issues.

    To go even further.  Next a compression test. A proper compression test is removing ALL the spark plugs & holding the throttle wide open either with help of someone else OR IF you are alone get the secondary's wide open & put a long screwdriver in there to help keep the secondary's wide open OR ALMOST wide open.  Take the coil wire & with a jumper wire ground the coil wire.  IF you come up rather low on compression would be another indicator of chain/gear problems.

      Next & final step.  #1 plug out & bring the #1 cylinder to TDC. This can be easily accomplished by turning the engine in the proper rotation & looking into the cylinder with a GOOD light look at the piston coming up to TDC & further put a long screwdriver into the plug opening & turning the engine over with the breaker bar until the screwdriver stops rising.  Then look at the balancer timing marks.  IF the chain/gears have jumped the mark on the balancer will not line up to zero more than likely 15*-20* off.

    To go even a step further remove the valve covers & turn the engine over again in the proper direction. Using the overlap method when the #1 cyl. is at TDC the valves in #4 cyl. will be in the overlap period.  Meaning both the intake & exhaust valves are open the same amount.  IF the chain/gears have jumped the valves will be uneven during the overlap period.

    Hope this is a help in determining that the chain/gears have jumped.

Another caution.  IF there are MANY missing pieces of plastic cam gear teeth it would be advisable to drop the pan & clean out ALL the plastic pieces out of the oil pick-up screen.  MANY have said in the past "my oil pressure is OK so I don't think dropping the pan is nec."  Quote, unquote.  Then 6 months to a year down the road the engine needs to be replaced because it spun a rod bearing or worse. What they don't realize is although oil pressure MAY be OK the oil volume has been compromised, meaning the amount of volume has been reduced.  This volume is important because the volume is what's keeping the cooling effect of the volume of oil to help cool the bearings & other rotating assembly lubrication.

 

Just my thoughts.

Good Luck.

 

Tom T.

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Fantastic info guys.

Over time I've forgotten more than I've learned! A lot of  - ooops I knew better.  

 

I'll use all this good advice and keep you all posted. May take a few days as I don't have every tool in the world.

I was spoiled in the military by free use of the auto hobby shop. I miss that!

(Ran out and bought my first compressor yesterday)

 

When shes fixed I plan on swapping for a boat tail. Their prices are getting ridiculous, however. 😑

 

Paul

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Paul,

 

    A basic set of tools is all that will be required to do this checking stuff other than maybe a compression tester that you can borrow from Napa, Advanced, Auto Zone etc. for a deposit which will be returned when the tool is returned.

 

Tom T.

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On 7/27/2020 at 11:01 AM, RivNut said:

In my vernacular, motors are electric; engines run on fuel.  😎

 

Being a teacher myself, I have to agree with you Ed. 🙂

 

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On 7/27/2020 at 5:09 PM, telriv said:

   It has ALWAYS irked me when someone said "Motor" instead of "Engine" when someone is talking about the ENGINE in their automobile/truck or whatever & calls it a motor.

   Never said anything because it the world we live in today does it really matter???

That's one reason I ask for clarification.

 

Tom T.

Tom, Clarification is the safest and best way to communicate. Communication is hard for the best of us. I’m a believer in say what you mean and mean what you say. Using correct automotive terms to describe a problem is essential in communicating a problem. Using the Service Manual helps  me with the correct name for item (s) I’m having trouble

trying to repair.

Turbinator.

Edited by Turbinator (see edit history)

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52 minutes ago, Turbinator said:

Tom, Clarification is the safest and best way to communicate. Communication is hard for the best of us. I’m a believer in say what you mean and mean what you say. Using correct automotive terms to describe a problem is essential in communicating a problem. Using the Service Manual helps  me with the correct name for item (s) I’m having trouble

trying to repair.

Turbinator.

Kind of like using the word lay instead of lie when referring to reclining when taking a nap or sleeping. Lie is present tense.  Lay is past tense.  I am going to lie down for an hour. I lay in bed all day yesterday. I have lain in bed till 10:00 AM every day this past week.   

 

Or lay is present tense when referring to placing an object.  Lay the package on the porch.  But as Tom T. says, in today's world, people are to indifferent to want to learn appropriate usage of word. Many words have been misused to the point where the misused word is understood (and sadly accepted) by the common man. Same with ending a sentence with a preposition. 

Lie, lay, have lain: the act of reclining. 

Lay, laid, have laid: the act of placing.

🤓

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On 7/27/2020 at 2:01 PM, RivNut said:

100 percent agree, I often have to correct callers ordering porsche parts for their "motor". I ask: "headlight motor, wiper motor, fresh air motor, or heater blower motor?" THEN they say engine.

    These days with all of the electric cars out there, we HAVE to specify. Internal combustion ENGINE or electric MOTOR.   (of course then there is a term we old guys are very familiar with "outboard motor".  Has any one called it an outboard engine?

 

On 7/27/2020 at 2:01 PM, RivNut said:

 

In my vernacular, motors are electric; engines run on fuel.  😎

 

What Tom T. suggests is right on.  I've stated this before and in the case of an engine rebuild, it's totally on target. 

CHEAP LABOR ISN'T GOOD AND GOOD LABOR ISN'T CHEAP.   

The quality of your rebuild will be remembered long after the cost is long forgotten.  

 

Your only jobs in an engine rebuild should be getting the engine to and from the rebuilder's, be a Go-fer should one be needed, and write the check.

 

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